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Author Topic: SSM News: Gay is OK in KY  (Read 8082 times)

sailor

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Re: SSM News: Gay is OK in KY
« Reply #15 on: July 04, 2014, 11:53:51 am »
Quote from: Catherine;152166
Yes. As in, biological father. He did contribute to making a baby...



Why? People get married, have kids, get divorced and remarried then have more kids all the time. What's the difference if the second marriage happens to be a same sex marriage? They can still have kids if they choose. There are a lot of options.

I do think that either you missed my point, or I wasn't clear. My point was that the whole "oh no the human population is in danger because of gay marriage" bullshit is just that, bullshit. It simply doesn't hold up for a variety of reasons. One of those reasons, is that gay men make babies too.

 
Using your point, seems that we don't have to allow SSM since gay men are already marrying women and having kids.  

If you exclude gay men marrying women and having kids from such a marrigae from the pool, you have a strong case for SSM and for allowing them to adopt. Why might a gay man have married a woman in the first place?  Here are a couple of sort of straw men.
1 - they didn't realize how strong their attraction to men was, so they then divorced and started over.
2 - they were pressured into showing they were straight - family, job, wanted to be in the military, plenty of other options.
3 - they tried heterosexual sex, the girl got pregnant and they either "did the right thing and married her" (note the quotes) or were pressured into the marriage (probably at a young age)

I could probably come up with others.

As society hopefully gets more accepting of gays, hopefully those reasons I listed should fade away.

That makes a case for allowing SSM, for allowing adoption by gays (mostly men, but women also) and contrary to the governor's point it's probably a net plus.  With the men we probably won't get a significant growth in population but we are more likely to get better educated kids and better workers than the foster care system seems to turn out.  For lesbians, SSM could produce a lot more kids (with even 1 kid being more if you make the probably unwarrented assumption that lesbians are more likely to have kid with the extra legal protections and benefits that marriage provides)

Catherine

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Re: SSM News: Gay is OK in KY
« Reply #16 on: July 06, 2014, 09:49:38 am »
Quote from: sailor;152220
Using your point, seems that we don't have to allow SSM since gay men are already marrying women and having kids.  

If you exclude gay men marrying women and having kids from such a marrigae from the pool, you have a strong case for SSM and for allowing them to adopt. Why might a gay man have married a woman in the first place?  Here are a couple of sort of straw men.
1 - they didn't realize how strong their attraction to men was, so they then divorced and started over.
2 - they were pressured into showing they were straight - family, job, wanted to be in the military, plenty of other options.
3 - they tried heterosexual sex, the girl got pregnant and they either "did the right thing and married her" (note the quotes) or were pressured into the marriage (probably at a young age)

I could probably come up with others.

As society hopefully gets more accepting of gays, hopefully those reasons I listed should fade away.

That makes a case for allowing SSM, for allowing adoption by gays (mostly men, but women also) and contrary to the governor's point it's probably a net plus.  With the men we probably won't get a significant growth in population but we are more likely to get better educated kids and better workers than the foster care system seems to turn out.  For lesbians, SSM could produce a lot more kids (with even 1 kid being more if you make the probably unwarrented assumption that lesbians are more likely to have kid with the extra legal protections and benefits that marriage provides)

 
You know what, Sailor? I thought that for once we were in agreement on an issue, so I responded to you with one point that pokes a hole in some bigoted politician's theory.

To be clear, I didn't think it was your theory. I also wasn't trying to be confrontational in any way. I was only speaking from my own experiences. Yet, you seem to have taken it as some kind of challenge.

Your post that I've quoted here, seems to imply that I shouldn't talk about my experiences and those of my family. Like it somehow hurts the cause of SSM and couples being able to adopt. If I've misread you, and that wasn't your intent, then I apologize. But if that was your intent, then you should know that I find it very offensive.

The whole issue of SSM and couples raising children hits very close to home for me, obviously. And it can be really frustrating for me when the topic comes up, because those of us who have been raise by SS couples, are mostly talk about instead of being talked to. As if we're some kind of theoretical football to kick around. Not to mention the fact that I'm sick to death of seeing my family, and families like mine demonized by bigots. So I speak out about it as often as I can.

I also understand that people's lived experiences can't dominate every conversation, but they shouldn't be entirely ignored in these discussions, either.

And for what it's worth, those "straw man arguments" may also be the lived experiences of many people. Especially for people of my dad's generation. Right along side a host of other reasons why a gay man might have children. Up too and including the fact that human sexuality can be a moving target, sometimes.

Anyway, I'm done trying to converse with you. You seem to take issue with anything I say, even if we seem to be on the same page, so there's really no point. And frankly, I don't have the energy.

Altair

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Re: SSM News: Gay is OK in KY
« Reply #17 on: July 06, 2014, 10:54:17 am »
Quote from: Catherine;152338
Your post that I've quoted here, seems to imply that I shouldn't talk about my experiences and those of my family. Like it somehow hurts the cause of SSM and couples being able to adopt. If I've misread you, and that wasn't your intent, then I apologize. But if that was your intent, then you should know that I find it very offensive.


In Sailor's defense (that's the second time in a week I've had to write those spine-tingling words; if I do it again, I think I'll have to hang myself), I don't think he was trying to denigrate your personal experience, Catherine. I should let Sailor speak for himself, but that's not how I read it, anyway. (And maybe I've been reading Sailor's posts at the Cauldron for too long!)

I think he was very narrowly applying what you said to the governor's ridiculous arguments, as a way of parsing their ridiculousness. Your particular point, while completely valid to the broader discussion, did little to torpedo the governor's "we need straights-only marriage because spawn!"

But hell-yeah THANK YOU for telling your story wherever and whenever you can. As you yourself noted, that's how we've made the astonishingly swift progress we've made on LGBTQ and marriage equality, and it's the main way we'll finish the job and make those rights secure for the future.
« Last Edit: July 06, 2014, 10:55:36 am by Altair »
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Altair

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Re: SSM News: Gay is OK in KY
« Reply #18 on: July 06, 2014, 10:59:19 am »
Quote from: Altair;152346

I think he was very narrowly applying what you said to the governor's ridiculous arguments, as a way of parsing their ridiculousness.


And then tossing around some straw-man arguments to amuse himself. In other words, he was just being Sailor.
The first song sets the wheel in motion / The second is a song of love / The third song tells of Her devotion / The fourth cries joy from the sky above
The fifth song binds our fate to silence / and bids us live each moment well / The sixth unleashes rage and violence / The seventh song has truth to tell
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sailor

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Re: SSM News: Gay is OK in KY
« Reply #19 on: July 06, 2014, 11:08:07 am »
Quote from: Altair;152346
In Sailor's defense (that's the second time in a week I've had to write those spine-tingling words; if I do it again, I think I'll have to hang myself), I don't think he was trying to denigrate your personal experience, Catherine. I should let Sailor speak for himself, but that's not how I read it, anyway. (And maybe I've been reading Sailor's posts at the Cauldron for too long!)

I think he was very narrowly applying what you said to the governor's ridiculous arguments, as a way of parsing their ridiculousness. Your particular point, while completely valid to the broader discussion, did little to torpedo the governor's "we need straights-only marriage because spawn!"

But hell-yeah THANK YOU for telling your story wherever and whenever you can. As you yourself noted, that's how we've made the astonishingly swift progress we've made on LGBTQ and marriage equality, and it's the main way we'll finish the job and make those rights secure for the future.

 
Altair, thank you for writing a much clearer response than I was able to come up with earlier which is why I didn't respond directly to Catherine.  And yes, that's why I labeled them as probably straw men.

Catherine, I wasn't trying to insult or denigrate your personal story.

Skyth

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Re: SSM News: Gay is OK in KY
« Reply #20 on: July 06, 2014, 10:20:36 pm »
Quote from: Catherine;152338
I also understand that people's lived experiences can't dominate every conversation, but they shouldn't be entirely ignored in these discussions, either.

 
Actually, with this topic, people's lived experiences are what SHOULD dominate every conversation.  Anti-SSM people tend to dehumanize the homosexuals and make them out to be an evil other.  Reminding people that homosexuals are indeed people is important and the way to win the war.

Catherine

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Re: SSM News: Gay is OK in KY
« Reply #21 on: July 08, 2014, 01:20:57 pm »
Quote from: Altair;152346
In Sailor's defense (that's the second time in a week I've had to write those spine-tingling words; if I do it again, I think I'll have to hang myself), I don't think he was trying to denigrate your personal experience, Catherine. I should let Sailor speak for himself, but that's not how I read it, anyway. (And maybe I've been reading Sailor's posts at the Cauldron for too long!)

I think he was very narrowly applying what you said to the governor's ridiculous arguments, as a way of parsing their ridiculousness. Your particular point, while completely valid to the broader discussion, did little to torpedo the governor's "we need straights-only marriage because spawn!"


I understand what you're saying, and you're probably right about that.

Catherine

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Re: SSM News: Gay is OK in KY
« Reply #22 on: July 08, 2014, 01:28:45 pm »
Quote from: sailor;152350
Altair, thank you for writing a much clearer response than I was able to come up with earlier which is why I didn't respond directly to Catherine.  And yes, that's why I labeled them as probably straw men.

Catherine, I wasn't trying to insult or denigrate your personal story.

 
I guess I misunderstood you and I was missing your point.

Also, when I said the bit about having my family and families like mine demonized, I didn't mean you were doing that, just that it is done fairly often.

Catherine

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Re: SSM News: Gay is OK in KY
« Reply #23 on: July 08, 2014, 01:30:58 pm »
Quote from: Skyth;152393
Actually, with this topic, people's lived experiences are what SHOULD dominate every conversation.  Anti-SSM people tend to dehumanize the homosexuals and make them out to be an evil other.  Reminding people that homosexuals are indeed people is important and the way to win the war.

 
I agree with you, but I think my specific experience was less relevant to this particular conversation.

sailor

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Re: SSM News: Gay is OK in KY
« Reply #24 on: July 08, 2014, 01:33:09 pm »
Quote from: Catherine;152563
I guess I misunderstood you and I was missing your point.

Also, when I said the bit about having my family and families like mine demonized, I didn't mean you were doing that, just that it is done fairly often.

 
My apologies if it set off triggers or such.

Catherine

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Re: SSM News: Gay is OK in KY
« Reply #25 on: July 08, 2014, 01:41:03 pm »
Quote from: sailor;152565
My apologies if it set off triggers or such.

 
Thank you, Sailor. I know that wasn't your intent.

I'll be honest, I've got a hair trigger when it comes to this issue (and a few others). It's nearly impossible for me to be objective in any way. It's not very helpful on a debate and discussion forum...

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