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Author Topic: So sick of this nonsense!  (Read 5694 times)

DIASPORA-1963

Re: So sick of this nonsense!
« Reply #15 on: March 06, 2016, 03:08:02 am »
Quote from: Morag;187644
So, correct me if I'm wrong, but I think the point you're trying to make here is that the issues themselves aren't nonsense, but allowing them to dominate our time and energy while we get eaten alive by classism is?

That's an interesting view of things, but I think it's important to remember that classism intersects with all of those issues, too, and oftentimes it's easier to fight the big war on a smaller battlefield (say, fighting for better accessibility to abortion for everyone as a way of levelling the playing field between rich and poor people, the former of whom automatically have better access to abortion because they are able to pay for it or travel from their home).

 
Problem is, we're tearing each other to pieces while we're fighting on those smaller battlefields. "WE - all of US - the PEOPLE - will NOT let YOU get away with paying less taxes anymore!!!" That would be a good start. Taxes must always be considered on a % basis - always. 10 million to a billionaire is a lot less than 10 thousand to an ordinary worker.
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Altair

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Re: So sick of this nonsense!
« Reply #16 on: March 07, 2016, 05:19:03 am »
Quote from: DIASPORA-1963;187608

black cops brutalize black people at least as much as white cops - at least in NYC


No, but black cop brutality against other black people does happen. Some put on the blue uniform and assume the same corrosive biases that permeate the rest of society.

Quote

NYC has made sure that black neighborhoods are almost exclusively patrolled by black cops


Utterly false. I live here, I was born here, and I've spent my entire adult life here, and this has never been true. You're misinformed.

Quote from: DIASPORA-1963;187608

I have many black blood relatives. I know all about "white privilege". I have seen it w/my own eyes. Nonetheless, my one cousin who was murdered (1/2 black) was murdered by 4 black teenagers. She was 23 years old and was beaten and shot to death because the teens thought that she was the girlfriend of a drug dealer who happened to live 2 doors down - they got the address wrong. He was out, they insisted that she knew where his money was, and they beat her until they heard something, then they shot her and ran. The police got them. The youngest was 14 years-old, but Virginia was going to execute him, anyway.  We don't believe in the Death Penalty, so we asked that it not be imposed - and it wasn't. The boys got life instead. And because my aunt made a special appeal as the victim's mother, they will have the possibility of parole. My WASP aunt begged for the lives and futures of four black teenagers who murdered her daughter - so, white privilege can be mitigated.


While this is an interesting story, I'm not sure how it relates to your larger claim. You say you're sick of the nonsense of paying attention to race. But the death penalty is disproportionately imposed on black people. By not paying attention to race, that won't ever change. The fact that your family went out of its way to make sure the death penalty wasn't imposed in this case does nothing to alter the systemic factors that keeps putting black people on death row.

As a more general reply to the ideas in this thread, some are interesting, but so many of them are conflated that it's difficult to tease them out to address them appropriately. I'm with Yei that we need specifics and context. Talking about police brutality, how the legal system processes black people, and the political correctness wars on campus may all involve race/ethnicity to greater or lesser extents, but lumping them all together and saying we shouldn't pay attention to race doesn't really examine them in a useful way, IMHO.

DIASPORA-1963

Re: So sick of this nonsense!
« Reply #17 on: March 07, 2016, 05:38:56 am »
Quote from: Altair;187716
No, but black cop brutality against other black people does happen. Some put on the blue uniform and assume the same corrosive biases that permeate the rest of society.
Utterly false. I live here, I was born here, and I've spent my entire adult life here, and this has never been true. You're misinformed.

I lived in NYC for 42 years. We went from an almost entirely male, white police force to a very mixed, male & female police force. Tell me that that is not T. Tell me that my memory is mistaken that as far back as the RG Administration that patrols in neighborhoods have not been made more like those neighborhoods, including gay cops patrolling Greenwich Village (10 th Precinct) ... I don't say things w/o at least some T to them. I'm an old buzzard, & I was there when policewomen did not patrol, were restricted to traffic details, and had to wear skirts. The World does change, even if one is not there to see it change. The even bigger change, believe it or not, is black cops patrolling white neighborhoods - you did not see that in 1960s NYC, especially not the Upper East Side.

Quote from: Altair;187716
While this is an interesting story, I'm not sure how it relates to your larger claim. You say you're sick of the nonsense of paying attention to race. But the death penalty is disproportionately imposed on black people. By not paying attention to race, that won't ever change. The fact that your family went out of its way to make sure the death penalty wasn't imposed in this case does nothing to alter the systemic factors that keeps putting black people on death row.
It had nothing to do w/the race of the boys; it had to do w/the Death Penalty itself. We would have done the same for any set of boys convicted of killing my cousin. No amount of vengeance would have brought my cousin back.

Quote from: Altair;187716
As a more general reply to the ideas in this thread, some are interesting, but so many of them are conflated that it's difficult to tease them out to address them appropriately. I'm with Yei that we need specifics and context. Talking about police brutality, how the legal system processes black people, and the political correctness wars on campus may all involve race/ethnicity to greater or lesser extents, but lumping them all together and saying we shouldn't pay attention to race doesn't really examine them in a useful way, IMHO.
MY contention is & remains: race is not the real issue. The real issue is poverty. Until people accept that poverty is the issue & that they are blinded by the other issues, they will continue to sink further into poverty, while a smaller & smaller handful continues to own a greater & greater proportion of America.
« Last Edit: March 07, 2016, 05:42:18 am by DIASPORA-1963 »
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Altair

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Re: So sick of this nonsense!
« Reply #18 on: March 08, 2016, 05:17:37 am »
Quote from: DIASPORA-1963;187717
I lived in NYC for 42 years. We went from an almost entirely male, white police force to a very mixed, male & female police force. Tell me that that is not T.

That very much is true. But there is a *huge* difference between claiming that the NYPD is much more diverse than it used to be vs. claiming that black neighborhoods are policed almost entirely by black cops. That simply isn't true. Never has been. Period.
 
Quote
It had nothing to do w/the race of the boys; it had to do w/the Death Penalty itself.

If you're not bringing it up to address the racial disparities in application of the death penalty--if you're not bringing it up because of the race of the boys, if race had nothing to do with it--why mention it and finish with "white privilege can be mitigated"? Why mention the race of the boys at all?

I'm missing your point here.

Quote
MY contention is & remains: race is not the real issue. The real issue is poverty. Until people accept that poverty is the issue & that they are blinded by the other issues, they will continue to sink further into poverty, while a smaller & smaller handful continues to own a greater & greater proportion of America.

This is the idea I find most promising. I don't buy that we have to ignore our society's other very real problems (of race, gender, sexual orientation disparities, etc.) to get at this one, but I think putting a spotlight on this one is valuable. I assume you're a Bernie Sanders voter?
« Last Edit: March 08, 2016, 05:18:12 am by Altair »

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Re: So sick of this nonsense!
« Reply #19 on: March 08, 2016, 05:36:07 am »
Quote from: DIASPORA-1963;187717

MY contention is & remains: race is not the real issue. The real issue is poverty. Until people accept that poverty is the issue & that they are blinded by the other issues, they will continue to sink further into poverty, while a smaller & smaller handful continues to own a greater & greater proportion of America.

 
Ahh the natural reduction of a complex multi-faceted problem down to a single issue. How very ... white ... of you.

I know how it goes. I'm white myself. But the reductionist thinking does not really work when it comes to social problems, which arise from a complex web of inter-relationships rather than from singular causes. In America the issue of race and poverty are so intimately connected that it is impossible to separate them. Trying to address one without the other is doomed to failure.

DIASPORA-1963

Re: So sick of this nonsense!
« Reply #20 on: March 08, 2016, 06:57:16 am »
Quote from: Yei;187792
Ahh the natural reduction of a complex multi-faceted problem down to a single issue. How very ... white ... of you.

I know how it goes. I'm white myself. But the reductionist thinking does not really work when it comes to social problems, which arise from a complex web of inter-relationships rather than from singular causes. In America the issue of race and poverty are so intimately connected that it is impossible to separate them. Trying to address one without the other is doomed to failure.

 
Well, from what I see, the race issue is slowly dissolving at the bottom. Mixing of the races is so common among the poor that it won't be long before it will be hard to speak in terms of race when it comes to poor people. Then, what? I know, 1/2-white is still black. But, curious thing in America in the last 30 years - the rich are emulating the poor - blame that on Hip-Hop music. That's the first time in history that that has happened. What do you think about that?
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Faemon

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Re: So sick of this nonsense!
« Reply #21 on: March 08, 2016, 08:04:32 am »
Quote from: DIASPORA-1963;187717
MY contention is & remains: race is not the real issue. The real issue is poverty. Until people accept that poverty is the issue & that they are blinded by the other issues


Not necessarily. Race is as real an issue as classism, the breakdown of racism can lead to the breakdown of economic injustices as well.

There is no keystone, unlike what you propose, and that would be fine if economic justice were your personal priority and cause. If you dismiss the concerns of public sheeple as nonsense, though, that's dismissing a perspective that 1.) is important in its own small and subtle way to the grand scheme of things, if economics is even the grand scheme rather than an indicator of something or everything else and 2.) is important to an individual person who is...not you, but a different person, in a different position, with different concerns for their different life, and different means and different ways to just do something different.

There's always going to be something more important to somebody else than what your personal concerns are, even though it's your personal concerns for the whole planet. Unless you're volunteering to manage someone else's passions and causes, it's not your responsibility to dispell "nonsense" that...isn't even nonsense, I'll argue.

Quote from: DIASPORA-1963;187636
While the public is concerned w/nonsense - sex, sexuality, ethnicity, religious "differences", race, racism, gender, abortion, school prayer, & a long list of other "hot button" favorites,


Neurodiversity could be one of those hot buttons. If the way your mind works hasn't ever served as a threat to your income or quality of life, then you're higher functioning than I am! Bothering with nonsense such as neurodiversity tolerance and inclusivity leads to better systems for allocating human resources to more effective positions, which (I'm just guessing) leads to a better economy.

So, I'd consider that as worthwhile a cause as economics, because these issues are all intersectional.

Quote
sex, sexuality...gender...abortion


These concepts can provide a speculative trajectory of demographics, the number of people in the next generation. If you look at the shape of a demographics chart, you can usually find the correlation to the economic condition of a nation.

Quote
ethnicity, race, racism, school prayer


Then there's the usefulness of specifying a nation, itself an ethnic palette, even as it encompasses ethnicities within itself as a nation. If you imagine that the global economy can be generalized with a single cause, unfortunately economies vary depending on currency, resources, and demographics (see above quoted and here.)

Also note that religious narratives have been massively powerful political tools as much as they have been products of the cultural, political, and economic climate. It might be comfortable and natural to forget that, but these narratives would continue to have economic effects through the actions of people who adhere to them as members of a capitalist society.

Or if you're proposing to dismantle capitalism and let's all live off the grid like wilderness survivalists...well, we've still got sustainability of natural environmental resources to worry about, as well as active challenges based on all of the above nonsenses you've listed, which should be rather difficult to dismiss as irrelevant when one is personally challenged on all of those fronts to even function, fit in, or belong as a human being, let alone an active agent to realizing the ideal.
« Last Edit: March 08, 2016, 08:09:42 am by Faemon »
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Yei

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Re: So sick of this nonsense!
« Reply #22 on: March 08, 2016, 08:10:50 am »
Quote from: DIASPORA-1963;187794
Well, from what I see, the race issue is slowly dissolving at the bottom. Mixing of the races is so common among the poor that it won't be long before it will be hard to speak in terms of race when it comes to poor people. Then, what? I know, 1/2-white is still black. But, curious thing in America in the last 30 years - the rich are emulating the poor - blame that on Hip-Hop music. That's the first time in history that that has happened. What do you think about that?

 
Honestly, I don't think much of it. First of all, mixed race marriages and relationships are still a tiny minority of all relationships. Most people still date/marry people from their own ethnic group. Second of all, the most common form of intermarriage is between White males and Asian women. Black/White unions are fairly rare still, especially for White males and Black women. I'm not sure about the role of class in interracial marriage, but all I know suggests that it is most common in the middle-class, not the lower class.

And what is the significance of this? What is it supposed to prove? It certainly does not prove that poverty is an issue separate from racism, as it does not demonstrate that these changes are the sole result of changing economic conditions. There is no proven causal relationship. To me, all it suggests is that White men like Asian women, not that I'm blaming them. And again, there are complex social reasons why.

Besides, one should never believe that a trend will continue in the long-term. I mean, just six months ago, would anyone have predicted Trump?

DIASPORA-1963

Re: So sick of this nonsense!
« Reply #23 on: March 08, 2016, 05:31:17 pm »
Quote from: Yei;187796
Honestly, I don't think much of it. First of all, mixed race marriages and relationships are still a tiny minority of all relationships. Most people still date/marry people from their own ethnic group. Second of all, the most common form of intermarriage is between White males and Asian women. Black/White unions are fairly rare still, especially for White males and Black women. I'm not sure about the role of class in interracial marriage, but all I know suggests that it is most common in the middle-class, not the lower class.

And what is the significance of this? What is it supposed to prove? It certainly does not prove that poverty is an issue separate from racism, as it does not demonstrate that these changes are the sole result of changing economic conditions. There is no proven causal relationship. To me, all it suggests is that White men like Asian women, not that I'm blaming them. And again, there are complex social reasons why.

Besides, one should never believe that a trend will continue in the long-term. I mean, just six months ago, would anyone have predicted Trump?

Not from what I see ... Now, I don't know what circles you move in, but I came from a comfy middle-class family, but, because of my mental illness & my autism, since my parents died, I have been exposed to the "System" - that is, most of the people I now know are poverty stricken; the majority have been in & out of jail, if not prison, many are drug-addicted, many live on less than $800/month - black & white - & they are mixing very well indeed. It is rare to find a white woman w/anything other than a black boyfriend. My sister, on the other hand, is rather well-to-do - her take is yours - the white men who want the delicate China-dolls for wives, the tiny waists, the wives who don't gain an ounce, the obedient wives who walk a yard behind them, only to wake up to find that they are married to women who have bound them w/silk chains that are tighter and harder to break than any iron shackles. A friend married one of these - he's on a treadmill to provide the mansion, the expensive clothes, the best schools for the children, the designer everything. Goodie for him because he didn't like fat American women. Sorry, at the lower end, blacks & whites are mixing rampantly.True, it's mostly white women & black men, but it goes the other way, too. The other day, in Neptune, I saw a black woman, 6'5" tall, at least 300 lbs, a solid wall of muscle, w/ a white man who was perhaps 5'4" tall, 150 lbs, & a complete nerd - they were very much in love. She actually picked him up to kiss him!
« Last Edit: March 08, 2016, 05:34:03 pm by DIASPORA-1963 »
MARK aka CELLVLANVS MAGVS
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Yei

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Re: So sick of this nonsense!
« Reply #24 on: March 08, 2016, 11:05:35 pm »
Quote from: DIASPORA-1963;187804
Not from what I see ... Now, I don't know what circles you move in, but I came from a comfy middle-class family, but, because of my mental illness & my autism, since my parents died, I have been exposed to the "System" - that is, most of the people I now know are poverty stricken; the majority have been in & out of jail, if not prison, many are drug-addicted, many live on less than $800/month - black & white - & they are mixing very well indeed. It is rare to find a white woman w/anything other than a black boyfriend. My sister, on the other hand, is rather well-to-do - her take is yours - the white men who want the delicate China-dolls for wives, the tiny waists, the wives who don't gain an ounce, the obedient wives who walk a yard behind them, only to wake up to find that they are married to women who have bound them w/silk chains that are tighter and harder to break than any iron shackles. A friend married one of these - he's on a treadmill to provide the mansion, the expensive clothes, the best schools for the children, the designer everything. Goodie for him because he didn't like fat American women. Sorry, at the lower end, blacks & whites are mixing rampantly.True, it's mostly white women & black men, but it goes the other way, too. The other day, in Neptune, I saw a black woman, 6'5" tall, at least 300 lbs, a solid wall of muscle, w/ a white man who was perhaps 5'4" tall, 150 lbs, & a complete nerd - they were very much in love. She actually picked him up to kiss him!

 
Its not exactly rigorous statistical evidence though is it? Considering that the US population exceeds 300 million, it would be safe to say that what you see at your local DMV is nor representative.

DIASPORA-1963

Re: So sick of this nonsense!
« Reply #25 on: March 09, 2016, 05:26:59 am »
Quote from: Yei;187814
Its not exactly rigorous statistical evidence though is it? Considering that the US population exceeds 300 million, it would be safe to say that what you see at your local DMV is nor representative.

 
I am a mathematician, you know. I am aware that I have not presented a rigorous case; neither have you. We are merely chatting. I am presenting anecdotal evidence. By stating that you had seen statistics & then not citing them - well, sloppy ... I've seen my anecdotal evidence in NY, NJ, DE, MD VA, & FL. Densely populated states, by the by, NJ being the most densely populated state in the country - a good place to take a statistical sample, if one wishes to take a representative sample.
MARK aka CELLVLANVS MAGVS
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Yei

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Re: So sick of this nonsense!
« Reply #26 on: March 09, 2016, 04:25:15 pm »
Quote from: DIASPORA-1963;187819
I am a mathematician, you know. I am aware that I have not presented a rigorous case; neither have you. We are merely chatting. I am presenting anecdotal evidence. By stating that you had seen statistics & then not citing them - well, sloppy ... I've seen my anecdotal evidence in NY, NJ, DE, MD VA, & FL. Densely populated states, by the by, NJ being the most densely populated state in the country - a good place to take a statistical sample, if one wishes to take a representative sample.

I wasn't actually calling for statistics though. I was just pointing out that the USA is a big place, and that conditions vary. That, and considering how divisive US society can be I would hesitate to generalise between regions.

To be honest, I'm not sure (good) statistics would even exist for this, because I am fairly certain you mean relationships, while statistics usually list marriages. In the end I have no idea what is going on. You may very well be right, and you probably are for areas you are familiar with. But it will take 10 years to find out, and then another 20 years to understand it.
« Last Edit: March 09, 2016, 04:26:14 pm by Yei »

DIASPORA-1963

Re: So sick of this nonsense!
« Reply #27 on: March 09, 2016, 05:39:46 pm »
Quote from: Yei;187825
I wasn't actually calling for statistics though. I was just pointing out that the USA is a big place, and that conditions vary. That, and considering how divisive US society can be I would hesitate to generalise between regions.

To be honest, I'm not sure (good) statistics would even exist for this, because I am fairly certain you mean relationships, while statistics usually list marriages. In the end I have no idea what is going on. You may very well be right, and you probably are for areas you are familiar with. But it will take 10 years to find out, and then another 20 years to understand it.

Excellent guesses could be made, simply by surveying the DMV for addresses. It would give a rough idea of who is living w/whom. This could be supported by a survey of bail records - who bailed out whom, who visited whom in jail/prison, etc. In a short time, a large, detailed picture of inter-racial relationships would emerge. Perfect? No. But, as Carveth Read pointed out in his wonderful book, "Logic", if we waited for perfect, we would wait forever; we simply have to settle for less-than-perfect.
« Last Edit: March 09, 2016, 05:40:34 pm by DIASPORA-1963 »
MARK aka CELLVLANVS MAGVS
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Larry

Re: So sick of this nonsense!
« Reply #28 on: April 02, 2017, 09:50:50 pm »
Quote from: DIASPORA-1963;187588
Blame-blame-blame-blame-blame-blame-blame - ad infinitum ... & never a moment's pause in all of it. There isn't any race or ethnicity on this planet that hasn't worn a heavy set of heavy chains at one time or another - that hasn't been invaded, raped, enslaved, & seen many thousands slaughtered. NOT any race or ethnicity. & no two sets of poor people are willing & able to look at each other long enough to see that they have more in common than their apparent differences: poor Black people have more in common w/poor white people than they do w/rich Black people - period! & - get this - b/c some one person from a group treated you like crap does not entitle you automatically to treat any other member of that person's group like crap (exceptions - the KLAN, the NAZI's, people like that ... They're all assholes!). I'm SO SICK of this NONSENSE!

 
DIASPORA-1963, Well said, sir. I agree.
larry campbell

sevensons

Re: So sick of this nonsense!
« Reply #29 on: April 03, 2017, 12:08:05 am »
Quote from: Larry;204568
DIASPORA-1963, Well said, sir. I agree.

 
All though there is so much negativity in the world I tend to focus on the positive.

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