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Author Topic: So sick of this nonsense!  (Read 5698 times)

DIASPORA-1963

So sick of this nonsense!
« on: March 04, 2016, 06:16:36 pm »
Blame-blame-blame-blame-blame-blame-blame - ad infinitum ... & never a moment's pause in all of it. There isn't any race or ethnicity on this planet that hasn't worn a heavy set of heavy chains at one time or another - that hasn't been invaded, raped, enslaved, & seen many thousands slaughtered. NOT any race or ethnicity. & no two sets of poor people are willing & able to look at each other long enough to see that they have more in common than their apparent differences: poor Black people have more in common w/poor white people than they do w/rich Black people - period! & - get this - b/c some one person from a group treated you like crap does not entitle you automatically to treat any other member of that person's group like crap (exceptions - the KLAN, the NAZI's, people like that ... They're all assholes!). I'm SO SICK of this NONSENSE!
MARK aka CELLVLANVS MAGVS
OMNIA DEPENDET!

HarpingHawke

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Re: So sick of this nonsense!
« Reply #1 on: March 05, 2016, 12:04:22 am »
Quote from: DIASPORA-1963;187588
I'm SO SICK of this NONSENSE!

 
I do get where you're coming from, however, I think it might be a little more nuanced than that. There are other people better-equipped to explain *why* than I, however, I can try. Please, more-educated people, correct me if I'm wrong!

In the US, at least (I can't speak for other countries), our society was built while those heavy chains still held certain groups. That structuring holds influence today. It makes it more difficult for individuals of color to get jobs and rent apartments, because stereotypes and prejudices are so deeply ingrained in our society. People might not even notice their bias! It's a very complicated snarl that's going to take a long time to un-snarl; I haven't even really scratched the surface of the issue.

So. Nuance. Nuance is important to note.

I think it's also important to make a distinction that the majority of the white population (again, in the US) that was harmed was not harmed *specifically because of their whiteness,* and if they were, a lot of the time, it was because people like the Irish and the Italians *weren't white enough.* People of color were attacked a lot more, specifically for their race.
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Re: So sick of this nonsense!
« Reply #2 on: March 05, 2016, 02:03:30 am »
Quote from: DIASPORA-1963;187588
There isn't any race or ethnicity on this planet that hasn't worn a heavy set of heavy chains at one time or another - that hasn't been invaded, raped, enslaved, & seen many thousands slaughtered.

 
To use your imagery, I would say that there are some races (and also genders, orientations, levels of disability, etc) that are still wearing heavy chains, some heavier than others. In the US, some races are statistically much more likely to face police violence and disproportionately longer sentences, for example. In countries from the US and Canada to Australia to Japan, various indigenous people are dehumanized and deal with systemic disadvantages. To say that the system is broken is not a "blame game" - it's not blaming any individual white person, for example. It's just describing the evidence of a broken system, whether it's individual actions or systemic problems.

Quote
poor Black people have more in common w/poor white people than they do w/rich Black people - period!


It depends on what things you're comparing. I remember watching Fresh Prince of Bel Air when I was a kid and the episode about "driving while black" stuck with me. Black college professors still face police violence. That is a thing they have in common with other black people that I did not have to worry about when I was taunting the local cop as a rural high schooler or getting arrested in college.

One of my favorite explanations of privilege and how it can be complicated is John Scalzi's Straight White Male: The Lowest Difficulty Setting.
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Re: So sick of this nonsense!
« Reply #3 on: March 05, 2016, 03:37:45 am »
Quote from: DIASPORA-1963;187588
Blame-blame-blame-blame-blame-blame-blame - ad infinitum ... & never a moment's pause in all of it. There isn't any race or ethnicity on this planet that hasn't worn a heavy set of heavy chains at one time or another - that hasn't been invaded, raped, enslaved, & seen many thousands slaughtered. NOT any race or ethnicity. & no two sets of poor people are willing & able to look at each other long enough to see that they have more in common than their apparent differences: poor Black people have more in common w/poor white people than they do w/rich Black people - period! & - get this - b/c some one person from a group treated you like crap does not entitle you automatically to treat any other member of that person's group like crap (exceptions - the KLAN, the NAZI's, people like that ... They're all assholes!). I'm SO SICK of this NONSENSE!

 
Well that was ... somewhat contextless. What brought that on.

DIASPORA-1963

Re: So sick of this nonsense!
« Reply #4 on: March 05, 2016, 03:55:10 am »
Quote from: HarpingHawke;187599
I do get where you're coming from, however, I think it might be a little more nuanced than that. There are other people better-equipped to explain *why* than I, however, I can try. Please, more-educated people, correct me if I'm wrong!

In the US, at least (I can't speak for other countries), our society was built while those heavy chains still held certain groups. That structuring holds influence today. It makes it more difficult for individuals of color to get jobs and rent apartments, because stereotypes and prejudices are so deeply ingrained in our society. People might not even notice their bias! It's a very complicated snarl that's going to take a long time to un-snarl; I haven't even really scratched the surface of the issue.

So. Nuance. Nuance is important to note.

I think it's also important to make a distinction that the majority of the white population (again, in the US) that was harmed was not harmed *specifically because of their whiteness,* and if they were, a lot of the time, it was because people like the Irish and the Italians *weren't white enough.* People of color were attacked a lot more, specifically for their race.
Careful - neither the Irish nor the Italians & especially the Italians were considered white at all until recently. As a person who is 1/2 Italian-American whose mother was a WASP, I can attest that Mum was "La Bianca" - the "White Girl", so be very careful whom you're calling "white" ... It wasn't until after the Mafia became "official" and oddly "respectable" that Italian-Americans got (sort of) adopted as white - so long as they stayed in their ghettos & kept their greasy guinea paws off le ragazze bianche (the white girls).
As for the "nuance" - sorry - NO - I disagree. That's just part of "Divide & Conquer".
« Last Edit: March 05, 2016, 03:56:52 am by DIASPORA-1963 »
MARK aka CELLVLANVS MAGVS
OMNIA DEPENDET!

DIASPORA-1963

Re: So sick of this nonsense!
« Reply #5 on: March 05, 2016, 04:22:54 am »
Quote from: Jack;187603
To use your imagery, I would say that there are some races (and also genders, orientations, levels of disability, etc) that are still wearing heavy chains, some heavier than others. In the US, some races are statistically much more likely to face police violence and disproportionately longer sentences, for example. In countries from the US and Canada to Australia to Japan, various indigenous people are dehumanized and deal with systemic disadvantages. To say that the system is broken is not a "blame game" - it's not blaming any individual white person, for example. It's just describing the evidence of a broken system, whether it's individual actions or systemic problems.



It depends on what things you're comparing. I remember watching Fresh Prince of Bel Air when I was a kid and the episode about "driving while black" stuck with me. Black college professors still face police violence. That is a thing they have in common with other black people that I did not have to worry about when I was taunting the local cop as a rural high schooler or getting arrested in college.

One of my favorite explanations of privilege and how it can be complicated is John Scalzi's Straight White Male: The Lowest Difficulty Setting.

That is T.
However - I do not hear "police" nearly as often as I hear "white". (Fact is - black cops brutalize black people at least as much as white cops - at least in NYC - how do I know this? NYC has made sure that black neighborhoods are almost exclusively patrolled by black cops - yet the claims of brutality go on - & the wider public still seems to think that it's white cops!)
I have many black blood relatives. I know all about "white privilege". I have seen it w/my own eyes. Nonetheless, my one cousin who was murdered (1/2 black) was murdered by 4 black teenagers. She was 23 years old and was beaten and shot to death because the teens thought that she was the girlfriend of a drug dealer who happened to live 2 doors down - they got the address wrong. He was out, they insisted that she knew where his money was, and they beat her until they heard something, then they shot her and ran. The police got them. The youngest was 14 years-old, but Virginia was going to execute him, anyway.  We don't believe in the Death Penalty, so we asked that it not be imposed - and it wasn't. The boys got life instead. And because my aunt made a special appeal as the victim's mother, they will have the possibility of parole. My WASP aunt begged for the lives and futures of four black teenagers who murdered her daughter - so, white privilege can be mitigated.
MARK aka CELLVLANVS MAGVS
OMNIA DEPENDET!

DIASPORA-1963

Re: So sick of this nonsense!
« Reply #6 on: March 05, 2016, 04:29:23 am »
Quote from: Yei;187605
Well that was ... somewhat contextless. What brought that on.

 
Seeing people all but crucified at American colleges because they are "insensitive" - so much for "free speech" - someone's wittle feelings wuz hoit - aw ...
MARK aka CELLVLANVS MAGVS
OMNIA DEPENDET!

DIASPORA-1963

Re: So sick of this nonsense!
« Reply #7 on: March 05, 2016, 04:36:55 am »
Quote from: DIASPORA-1963;187608
That is T.
However - I do not hear "police" nearly as often as I hear "white". (Fact is - black cops brutalize black people at least as much as white cops - at least in NYC - how do I know this? NYC has made sure that black neighborhoods are almost exclusively patrolled by black cops - yet the claims of brutality go on - & the wider public still seems to think that it's white cops!)
I have many black blood relatives. I know all about "white privilege". I have seen it w/my own eyes. Nonetheless, my one cousin who was murdered (1/2 black) was murdered by 4 black teenagers. She was 23 years old and was beaten and shot to death because the teens thought that she was the girlfriend of a drug dealer who happened to live 2 doors down - they got the address wrong. He was out, they insisted that she knew where his money was, and they beat her until they heard something, then they shot her and ran. The police got them. The youngest was 14 years-old, but Virginia was going to execute him, anyway.  We don't believe in the Death Penalty, so we asked that it not be imposed - and it wasn't. The boys got life instead. And because my aunt made a special appeal as the victim's mother, they will have the possibility of parole. My WASP aunt begged for the lives and futures of four black teenagers who murdered her daughter - so, white privilege can be mitigated.

 
To that drug dealer's credit - he paid for my cousin's funeral; he paid for my cousin's daughter's schooling through college, spent time w/her as though he were her father (he was not); never forgot the girl's birthday; still makes sure that she has what she needs now that her grandmother has died from cancer, and has helped the wider family several times. Interesting, no?
MARK aka CELLVLANVS MAGVS
OMNIA DEPENDET!

HarpingHawke

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Re: So sick of this nonsense!
« Reply #8 on: March 05, 2016, 12:59:47 pm »
Quote from: DIASPORA-1963;187606
Careful - neither the Irish nor the Italians & especially the Italians were considered white at all until recently.

 
Still proves my point. They were still considered people of color and discriminated against for that, and institutionalized racism is still a problem.

(also, you're not the only Italian-American over here. I'm half Italian and a quarter Irish. I think I know).

Quote
As for the "nuance" - sorry - NO - I disagree. That's just part of "Divide & Conquer".


Mind explaining what you mean by "Divide and Conquer?"
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Castus

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Re: So sick of this nonsense!
« Reply #9 on: March 05, 2016, 04:36:59 pm »
Quote from: DIASPORA-1963;187588
Blame-blame-blame-blame-blame-blame-blame - ad infinitum ... & never a moment's pause in all of it. There isn't any race or ethnicity on this planet that hasn't worn a heavy set of heavy chains at one time or another - that hasn't been invaded, raped, enslaved, & seen many thousands slaughtered. NOT any race or ethnicity. & no two sets of poor people are willing & able to look at each other long enough to see that they have more in common than their apparent differences: poor Black people have more in common w/poor white people than they do w/rich Black people - period! & - get this - b/c some one person from a group treated you like crap does not entitle you automatically to treat any other member of that person's group like crap (exceptions - the KLAN, the NAZI's, people like that ... They're all assholes!). I'm SO SICK of this NONSENSE!

 
I, broadly speaking, agree with you.
It is a cursed evil to any man to become as absorbed in any subject as I am in mine.
-- Charles Darwin

DIASPORA-1963

Re: So sick of this nonsense!
« Reply #10 on: March 05, 2016, 05:48:01 pm »
Quote from: HarpingHawke;187628
Still proves my point. They were still considered people of color and discriminated against for that, and institutionalized racism is still a problem.

(also, you're not the only Italian-American over here. I'm half Italian and a quarter Irish. I think I know).



Mind explaining what you mean by "Divide and Conquer?"

I try to consider myself an American ...

Easily enough explained - keep people's eyes off the important things, & you can rob them blind. While the public is concerned w/nonsense - sex, sexuality, ethnicity, religious "differences", race, racism, gender, abortion, school prayer, & a long list of other "hot button" favorites, the few at the top - far fewer than 1% - can help themselves to all the goodies & then hand the bills to the saps whenever the bills come due. Wars, housing crises, Walls St collapses, etc.
« Last Edit: March 05, 2016, 05:49:05 pm by DIASPORA-1963 »
MARK aka CELLVLANVS MAGVS
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Castus

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Re: So sick of this nonsense!
« Reply #11 on: March 05, 2016, 06:57:26 pm »
Quote from: DIASPORA-1963;187636
I try to consider myself an American ...

Easily enough explained - keep people's eyes off the important things, & you can rob them blind. While the public is concerned w/nonsense - sex, sexuality, ethnicity, religious "differences", race, racism, gender, abortion, school prayer, & a long list of other "hot button" favorites, the few at the top - far fewer than 1% - can help themselves to all the goodies & then hand the bills to the saps whenever the bills come due. Wars, housing crises, Walls St collapses, etc.

I think dismissing sex, sexuality, ethnicity, religious differences, race, racism, gender, abortion, and school prayer as "nonsense" is rather silly. Granted, I think a lot of the ways which modern culture treats those things is harmful to a society and deeply wrong-headed, but that isn't to say that the issues themselves aren't important.
It is a cursed evil to any man to become as absorbed in any subject as I am in mine.
-- Charles Darwin

DIASPORA-1963

Re: So sick of this nonsense!
« Reply #12 on: March 05, 2016, 07:14:29 pm »
Quote from: Castus;187639
I think dismissing sex, sexuality, ethnicity, religious differences, race, racism, gender, abortion, and school prayer as "nonsense" is rather silly. Granted, I think a lot of the ways which modern culture treats those things is harmful to a society and deeply wrong-headed, but that isn't to say that the issues themselves aren't important.

 
That was what I meant, really - the trivial, stupid ways in which we deal w/these matters - nonsense.
MARK aka CELLVLANVS MAGVS
OMNIA DEPENDET!

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Re: So sick of this nonsense!
« Reply #13 on: March 05, 2016, 09:57:18 pm »
Quote from: DIASPORA-1963;187636
I try to consider myself an American ...

Easily enough explained - keep people's eyes off the important things, & you can rob them blind. While the public is concerned w/nonsense - sex, sexuality, ethnicity, religious "differences", race, racism, gender, abortion, school prayer, & a long list of other "hot button" favorites, the few at the top - far fewer than 1% - can help themselves to all the goodies & then hand the bills to the saps whenever the bills come due. Wars, housing crises, Walls St collapses, etc.

 
Quote from: DIASPORA-1963;187641
That was what I meant, really - the trivial, stupid ways in which we deal w/these matters - nonsense.

 
So, correct me if I'm wrong, but I think the point you're trying to make here is that the issues themselves aren't nonsense, but allowing them to dominate our time and energy while we get eaten alive by classism is?

That's an interesting view of things, but I think it's important to remember that classism intersects with all of those issues, too, and oftentimes it's easier to fight the big war on a smaller battlefield (say, fighting for better accessibility to abortion for everyone as a way of levelling the playing field between rich and poor people, the former of whom automatically have better access to abortion because they are able to pay for it or travel from their home).
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Re: So sick of this nonsense!
« Reply #14 on: March 05, 2016, 11:58:22 pm »
Quote from: Morag;187644
That's an interesting view of things, but I think it's important to remember that classism intersects with all of those issues, too,

 
For example: the expropriation of black wealth (through redlining, higher interest rates, riskier loan portfolios, concentration of poverty, and so on) primarily benefits - as is likely obvious from the list of methodologies used - that famous elite of the 1%.
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