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Author Topic: Secret panel can put Americans on "kill list'  (Read 4823 times)

LyricFox

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Re: Secret panel can put Americans on "kill list'
« Reply #30 on: October 11, 2011, 09:27:29 am »
Quote from: gwynwas;24827
That is a misrepresentation.   If you believe it is possible but not certain then we are in agreement.

 
Beyond defining "maybe" as "possible" our agreement ends. I disagree fundamentally with everything you said after "maybe." I most likely also disagree with the reasons you got there, but that's not the topic.
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sailor

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Re: Secret panel can put Americans on "kill list'
« Reply #31 on: October 11, 2011, 12:58:41 pm »
Quote from: LyricFox;24843
Sorry, but I'm not the one making the claim. It's not up to me to cite the sources for you. However, if you look down a couple of posts, you'll see Inca cited the correct Article of the US Constitution which, by the way, I did cite as the final arbiter in the defining "treason."


 
Inca actually quoted the 5th amendment which provides in some ways more protection.  The panel could have decided that AAs actions were Not treason (as defined by the Constitution) but he was guilty of a different crime that warranted capital punishment.

If I have time I'll dig up the Volokh discussion on the case. Under criminal law standards I really doubt that this was kosher, but it might be acceptable as an act of war.  Process and precedent is important and this could be a very bad precedent.  (and taking it to court against govt officials could be an even worse idea)

LyricFox

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Re: Secret panel can put Americans on "kill list'
« Reply #32 on: October 11, 2011, 01:44:42 pm »
Quote from: sailor;24875
Process and precedent is important and this could be a very bad precedent.  (and taking it to court against govt officials could be an even worse idea)

 
I agree. It's the precedent that is frightening as hell. I'm not a big fan of suing the government, but if it's a breach of a fundamental right, I have less issue with it.
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LyricFox

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Re: Secret panel can put Americans on "kill list'
« Reply #33 on: October 11, 2011, 01:58:46 pm »
Quote from: sailor;24875
Inca actually quoted the 5th amendment which provides in some ways more protection.  The panel could have decided that AAs actions were Not treason (as defined by the Constitution) but he was guilty of a different crime that warranted capital punishment.


I am still having a real problem with this whole "secret panel" shit making those sorts of decisions. I really am. I'm understanding of national security, but the idea you've got some phantom group behind closed doors making a life or death determination with no oversight, no recourse and no publication of the decision until after the even absolutely turns my stomach.
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veggiewolf

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Re: Secret panel can put Americans on "kill list'
« Reply #34 on: October 11, 2011, 02:18:33 pm »
Quote from: LyricFox;24883
I am still having a real problem with this whole "secret panel" shit making those sorts of decisions. I really am. I'm understanding of national security, but the idea you've got some phantom group behind closed doors making a life or death determination with no oversight, no recourse and no publication of the decision until after the even absolutely turns my stomach.


FWIW, we're on the same page, Lyric.
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sailor

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Re: Secret panel can put Americans on "kill list'
« Reply #35 on: October 11, 2011, 04:07:14 pm »
Quote from: LyricFox;24880
I agree. It's the precedent that is frightening as hell. I'm not a big fan of suing the government, but if it's a breach of a fundamental right, I have less issue with it.

 
Suing the govt as the govt isn't my concern here. It would be trying to criminalize political decisions by individuals.  You don't want to get into a situation where giving up power leads to huge legal bills or jail time.  The temptation becomes way to great to keep power by any means to avoid it. There was a reason Caesar crossed the Rubicon.

LyricFox

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Re: Secret panel can put Americans on "kill list'
« Reply #36 on: October 11, 2011, 04:28:57 pm »
Quote from: sailor;24917
Suing the govt as the govt isn't my concern here. It would be trying to criminalize political decisions by individuals.  You don't want to get into a situation where giving up power leads to huge legal bills or jail time.  The temptation becomes way to great to keep power by any means to avoid it. There was a reason Caesar crossed the Rubicon.

 
I tend to agree with you. At least right now. I think we've disagreed about this in the past, though, but right now my pain pill is kicking in so I may not be thinking right. :)
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sailor

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Re: Secret panel can put Americans on "kill list'
« Reply #37 on: October 15, 2011, 08:51:46 am »
Quote from: LyricFox;24261
Secret panel can put Americans on "kill list'


 
http://volokh.com/2011/10/14/you-cant-read-this-opinion/

Now there are court opinions (decisions) that the public can't read.  

OK, I can understand where classified information that was introduced in the trial would be redacted from the published opinion (and from public court transcripts).

This may be a case of releasing the opinion to move the case forward and a redacted version will come out in a couple of weeks. The lawyers would be able to see the classified opinion immediately and thus act upon it, ie further appeals or such, especially with the constitutional requirement of a speedy trial and the procedural rules for timely filings.

The ConLaw folks are unaware of this ever being done, so a delay in redaction may become the new special normal. Depending upon the time needed for redaction that per se isn't really bad although there is a really bad slippery slope there.

gwynwas

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Re: Secret panel can put Americans on "kill list'
« Reply #38 on: October 15, 2011, 08:32:33 pm »
Quote from: RandallS;24837
A Reminder:
Please do not tell people what they do or do not believe or declare that they are in agreement with you when they state that they are not. You may say something like "It looks like we might actually be in agreement because X", but do not state it as a "fact" so it looks like you are "correcting" their disagreement to agreement. You do not have the right to tell others whether or not they really agree with you when they say they do not.


Okay fine.

I would be angry if I wasn't laughing so hard.

I suggest you try to think about the prospect of applying your forum rules equitably.

Here is a citation for you:

Forum Moderation for Dummies

Melamphoros

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Re: Secret panel can put Americans on "kill list'
« Reply #39 on: October 15, 2011, 08:55:21 pm »
Quote from: gwynwas;25588
Okay fine.

I would be angry if I wasn't laughing so hard.

I suggest you try to think about the prospect of applying your forum rules equitably.

Here is a citation for you:

Forum Moderation for Dummies

 
*** MOD HAT ON ***
And I suggest you reread the rules.  Particularly the part that says "DO NOT argue with, comment on, complain about, criticize, or otherwise discuss staff decisions on rules issues in public in Cauldron community areas."

Consider this your first official warning.

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gwynwas

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Re: Secret panel can put Americans on "kill list'
« Reply #40 on: October 15, 2011, 09:07:04 pm »
Quote from: Inca;24835
You mean during the McCarthy witchhunt on communists? Ah, yes, there'd be no controversy. (There were quite a few people unfairly disadvataged of course, but who cares for them...)

 
(sighing)  Uh, no.  Sorry, but you are conflating two different discussion points.

1)  I was making the point that several people are on this thread are falling into the "slippery slope" fallacy by making the argument that because Awlaki was killed by the US military, then McCarthyism will ensue.

The point I made, that everyone has so far ignored or misrepresented, was that just because someone was targeted in a combat situation does not mean that McCarthyism will necessarily return.  If you want to disagree with me please do so without misrepresenting me.  The moderator has already made it clear that misrepresenting people, the way you did, is not acceptable on this forum.

2)  When I was referring to the past practices of killing US citizens in combat situations I was referring, not to McCarthyism, but to past wars, such as WWII, where enemy combatants, regardless of citizenship, and including command and control elements, were targeted.

Really, the pivot point of this whole debate is whether or not terrorism is "war."  I am suggesting that targeting Awlaki as a command element in a quasi war/situation is consistent with past wars.  Were trials held for every enemy combatant killed in WWII?  No.  The above constitutional citation is not relevant to this issue.  And in fact no one on this thread has made any relevant citations.

I also acknowledge and understand the opposing argument that killing Awlaki was extra judicial and that terrorism is not combat but is a criminal justice situation.  This is where the constitution is relevant.  I simply disagree.

Clearly, the type of terrorism Awlaki was involved in is different from "conventional" warfare.  But, I also put forward that the level of killing and destruction visited by al Qaeda on the US is most certainly an act of war.

I, personally, have no worries or stress as a result of Awlaki being killed.

My point about treason was somewhat hyperbolic and I do not think "treason" is the reason he was targeted.

Citations:

Slippery Slope Fallacy

Combat

War

RandallS

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Re: Secret panel can put Americans on "kill list'
« Reply #41 on: October 15, 2011, 09:31:31 pm »
Quote from: gwynwas;25588
Okay fine.

I would be angry if I wasn't laughing so hard.

I suggest you try to think about the prospect of applying your forum rules equitably.

Here is a citation for you:

Forum Moderation for Dummies

[mod=HOST HAT ON]Talking back to a reminder (not even a warning) from a Forum Host. Suggesting that I read a non-existent joke book because you don't like the moderation here.  Not impressed.

Replying to a request for citations with links to board category topics on Wikipedia? Not impressed.

Confining your posts only to this thread and you haven't even posted an introduction. Sounds like trolling.

Find another forum to do it in.[/mod]
Randall
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truthteller

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Re: Secret panel can put Americans on "kill list'
« Reply #42 on: October 15, 2011, 10:37:42 pm »
Quote from: RandallS;24838
It basically says "I'm trolling".

 
Trolling has to do with the person who started this thread.  RandallS is basically saying he will not allow open discussion.  He has a sign hung on his neck that says "I cannot handle people who disagree with me.  My member is so small I have to attack anyone who has dissenting opinions."

Here is something that might help:  Member Enlargement Technology

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