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Author Topic: Ruth Bader Ginsburg is dead, and perhaps so is the U.S.  (Read 1769 times)

Anon100

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Re: Ruth Bader Ginsburg is dead, and perhaps so is the U.S.
« Reply #15 on: September 25, 2020, 05:27:42 am »

That, ladies and gentlemen, is a coup. Nothing less. And it is a very real possibility for the United States in 2020.

Ok. Maybe I'm looking at things wrong or mad but I wonder if that might be turned around in the long term.

A coup on that scale would cause people to come together more against Trump - it's one thing to stand back and watch others shout, with your view being only of what life means to you ( what you've lost, how you've lost work/money/security ) and what you've been promised ( and people will hold onto promises as though a lifebelt to a drowning man ), it's quite another to watch your own rights get torn from you.
Yes, there will be hard liners and desperate people who fear to let go of the 'promised hope', but there will be many more who have been too long working from day to day or scared to risk. If they can be made to see the coup then that changes things considerably. You go from a large but still limited no of protestors ( and to be honest [ sorry to say this ], though the protests are big and powerful, Trump can try to appease them or wait them out, knowing that if he changes his mind when the anger has died he can probably get away with it ) to an overwhelming force of voters.
That could be enough to change perspectives for years and decades to come.

Also, remember that Trumps power is based on what he can offer his lackeys and that this would be a coup without the backing of the Army etc.

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Re: Ruth Bader Ginsburg is dead, and perhaps so is the U.S.
« Reply #16 on: September 25, 2020, 01:01:52 pm »
Ok. Maybe I'm looking at things wrong or mad but I wonder if that might be turned around in the long term.

How many people die before "the long term"?

Quote
Also, remember that Trumps power is based on what he can offer his lackeys and that this would be a coup without the backing of the Army etc.

Are you 100% confident that the system, including the military, wouldn't go "Um, it'd look super bad for us to extract the guy from the White House, it'd like we're taking over, wouldn't it be easier to just kinda go along with it."

Because given the last few years' treatment of every fucking illegal, immoral, or contemptible thing the man has done so far I am super not confident that people won't just shrug and go "It's too much trouble to stop him so we won't."
« Last Edit: September 25, 2020, 01:08:21 pm by Darkhawk »
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Re: Ruth Bader Ginsburg is dead, and perhaps so is the U.S.
« Reply #17 on: September 25, 2020, 01:12:08 pm »
How many people die before "the long term"?

Are you 100% confident that the system, including the military, wouldn't go "Um, it'd look super bad for us to extract the guy from the White House, it'd like we're taking over, wouldn't it be easier to just kinda go along with it."

Because given the last few years' treatment of every fucking illegal, immortal, or contemptible thing the man has done so far I am super not confident that people won't just shrug and go "It's too much trouble to stop him so we won't."

Yeah, the only way the army would intervene is if they thought not doing so would lead to some serious rupture in the existing order. Which it wouldn't. Americans are still, at the end of the day, extremely docile- the conservatives worship the police and authority, the centrists and liberals see political salvation in enlightened elites (politicians, judges, even the military in a pinch), and the left is a small and disorganized mess.

Even if Biden wins the US is on a grim trajectory which the Democrats have no real plan to address. The only thing that's going to wake this country up is a 1945 moment like Germany and Japan had.

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Re: Ruth Bader Ginsburg is dead, and perhaps so is the U.S.
« Reply #18 on: September 25, 2020, 05:02:50 pm »
How many people die before "the long term"?

Are you 100% confident that the system, including the military, wouldn't go "Um, it'd look super bad for us to extract the guy from the White House, it'd like we're taking over, wouldn't it be easier to just kinda go along with it."

Because given the last few years' treatment of every fucking illegal, immoral, or contemptible thing the man has done so far I am super not confident that people won't just shrug and go "It's too much trouble to stop him so we won't."

The same as have died already - too many.
I'm not saying long term is good, just that there's still got to be some hope, even if things get worse.
I don't have to face it, live it, worry about how it will hurt to live or die. Frankly, the more I look the more I realize that a world that all looks the same is so different in every corner that I can't claim to understand.. All I do know is that saying there's no hope is leaving an option for people to do nothing because, 'why try if there's no hope'.

I agree that most people will shrug and say, 'not my problem.' More still will say, 'I can't understand so Ill stick with what I can, and others will focus on protecting those closest to them.
That's inevitable. We had a peasants revolt here once ( long long ago ) and the king bowed and agreed to everything, then, when everyone had gone home, he killed the ringleaders and reverted to old ways. When I think of the US two lands come to mind - one where 'All men are created equal' and one where only money is created equal and all else seems to fall in dust.

As I say, I don't live it or even come close to touching it so I don't know, only remember what I know of the past.. At the same time it wasn't that long ago that people were shouting of hope - from the first same sex marriage to the appointment of Barack Obama. They raised banners and voices to it even.
Now so many seem to huddle in fear.
The things people said for Trump on tv coming up to last election were so similar to the ones leading to Brexit here - 'He's a business man so he can save us now our jobs have closed down' ( It's all those immigrants fault our jobs have shut down and we can't find work ); He'll make sure we return to the old golden age we remember by removing all these advancements which shut our mines while we got more imports ( We can get rid of all the rules which force us to accept this import or not over fish our seas ).. etc etc.
Both live off fear. The sense that a golden past ( yeah right ) has been stolen and just blaming someone or some new path can fix things.. No one showed them that there was a bright future at the end of all the struggle, just that it was darker where they stood than where they started from.

So I don't have any right to say this, I really don't, but I say it because I hate that clawing fear and blind scared anger which seem to have soaked into every corner and shrouded every hope - old and new.. He can lose, he can be defeated. I'm not there so I can't say how ( I'm sure I've already presumed too much but I'd rather speak and be wrong than stay silent but have been right ) but there's still a strength and hope in so many and there must be a way to get people to see that, who've been holding on to the ( glorious ) past for so long in fear.

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Re: Ruth Bader Ginsburg is dead, and perhaps so is the U.S.
« Reply #19 on: September 25, 2020, 05:29:14 pm »
How many people die before "the long term"?

Are you 100% confident that the system, including the military, wouldn't go "Um, it'd look super bad for us to extract the guy from the White House, it'd like we're taking over, wouldn't it be easier to just kinda go along with it."

Because given the last few years' treatment of every fucking illegal, immoral, or contemptible thing the man has done so far I am super not confident that people won't just shrug and go "It's too much trouble to stop him so we won't."

Yeah, and if Trump were to pull off the sort of coop Altair's speaking of then he becomes even more entrenched in his power than he already is (at least that's my fear).
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Re: Ruth Bader Ginsburg is dead, and perhaps so is the U.S.
« Reply #20 on: September 25, 2020, 05:37:59 pm »
The things people said for Trump on tv coming up to last election were so similar to the ones leading to Brexit here - 'He's a business man so he can save us now our jobs have closed down' ( It's all those immigrants fault our jobs have shut down and we can't find work ); He'll make sure we return to the old golden age we remember by removing all these advancements which shut our mines while we got more imports ( We can get rid of all the rules which force us to accept this import or not over fish our seas ).. etc etc.
Both live off fear. The sense that a golden past ( yeah right ) has been stolen and just blaming someone or some new path can fix things.. No one showed them that there was a bright future at the end of all the struggle, just that it was darker where they stood than where they started from.

So I don't have any right to say this, I really don't, but I say it because I hate that clawing fear and blind scared anger which seem to have soaked into every corner and shrouded every hope - old and new.. He can lose, he can be defeated. I'm not there so I can't say how ( I'm sure I've already presumed too much but I'd rather speak and be wrong than stay silent but have been right ) but there's still a strength and hope in so many and there must be a way to get people to see that, who've been holding on to the ( glorious ) past for so long in fear.

I think I get where you're coming from.  And while I struggle to manage even the level of optimism that you seem to have (I was gutted after our last general election result, as I was convinced to Tories couldn't swing it that time and I was sadly so very wrong), I do think you're right.  I hope you're right.

I'm reminded (as I often am) of the fact that we'd all still be working 6 1/2 day weeks here in England and have no such thing as paid holiday, if not for the Trades Unions.  I won't continue to go down that line of thinking, however; it'd be co-opting the thread, as it's a thread about the US not the UK.
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Re: Ruth Bader Ginsburg is dead, and perhaps so is the U.S.
« Reply #21 on: September 25, 2020, 08:00:27 pm »
I'm reminded (as I often am) of the fact that we'd all still be working 6 1/2 day weeks here in England and have no such thing as paid holiday, if not for the Trades Unions.  I won't continue to go down that line of thinking, however; it'd be co-opting the thread, as it's a thread about the US not the UK.

PP, while the problem of the rise of fascism (I no longer shy away from using that term; I no longer consider it an exaggeration) is particularly acute in the U.S....or perhaps it seems particularly acute here, because we are such a big player on the world stage...it is nonetheless an international problem. So I for one don't consider thoughts on what's going on or has gone on in the past in the U.K. to be coopting the thread.
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Anon100

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Re: Ruth Bader Ginsburg is dead, and perhaps so is the U.S.
« Reply #22 on: September 26, 2020, 04:48:03 am »
PP, while the problem of the rise of fascism (I no longer shy away from using that term; I no longer consider it an exaggeration) is particularly acute in the U.S....or perhaps it seems particularly acute here, because we are such a big player on the world stage...it is nonetheless an international problem. So I for one don't consider thoughts on what's going on or has gone on in the past in the U.K. to be coopting the thread.

In that case I'll post these links about the history of UK voting -

https://www.bbc.co.uk/bitesize/guides/z9hnn39/revision/2  &  http://www.nationalarchives.gov.uk/pathways/citizenship/struggle_democracy/getting_vote.htm

Perdita is right in that it wasn't so long ago that there seemed no hope for more than a handful to have any say on our country ( about 3% ).
Oddly the term 'welfare state' which we think of as evil misuse of our money ( and was of influence in Brexit ) actually stems from the point when we managed to get free school meals, health support, unemployment support etc ( all good things ).

Frankly, if the unions hadn't been formed we'd still be working our lives away and have no health or support. It wasn't so much us shouting individually as it was that the unions held control of industry. I remember my father being involved in union strikes for better wages.
They could shut off the power to the country by getting all their voters to down tools at once ( not just in one union - the others would down tools in sympathy ).
You'll also note that the fact that we had to rely on women and men who were 'not of standing' during ( and after ) the Great War also made a difference.

What I'm saying is that everyone forgets that government only holds power that we give it ( even our government does ). Even if Trump wins and holds the judges what would happen if you all went on strike and the factories stopped? He can't arrest everyone because who would run the working of the country.

So, maybe there are ways that doesn't apply in the US, but he isn't all powerful.


Anon100

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Re: Ruth Bader Ginsburg is dead, and perhaps so is the U.S.
« Reply #23 on: September 26, 2020, 05:10:46 am »
I think I get where you're coming from.  And while I struggle to manage even the level of optimism that you seem to have (I was gutted after our last general election result, as I was convinced to Tories couldn't swing it that time and I was sadly so very wrong), I do think you're right.  I hope you're right.

People forget, Perdita. At least that's the conclusion I've come to.
They forget they have a say because it's scary to have that power. Then the powers that be, go round pointing to some one or thing and saying 'they're to blame for what's wrong. You don't need to think, just vote for us and we'll send them away'.

Hitler didn't get power because everyone was antisemitic in Germany ( yes, some were, but not just in Germany. It was a darkness that had popped up in many places ). He got power because they were struggling after the last war and he pointed at the Jews and said, 'It's their fault. Don't ask what I'll do but I can make us rich again and take away all your pain and fears.' He turned all the people's pain and fears into a wave of hate and rode it to the top.

That's what scares me and angers me right now. That people are so ready to let people do that again.
After Brexit they did an interview with someone who said, 'we've told the government what we want, now we leave the details up to them'. They actually chose to have no say on how our rules will change and what we might lose.
« Last Edit: September 26, 2020, 05:13:58 am by Anon100 »

PerditaPickle

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Re: Ruth Bader Ginsburg is dead, and perhaps so is the U.S.
« Reply #24 on: September 26, 2020, 08:19:54 am »
Even if Trump wins and holds the judges what would happen if you all went on strike and the factories stopped? He can't arrest everyone because who would run the working of the country.

So, maybe there are ways that doesn't apply in the US, but he isn't all powerful.

My own experience, however, is that the workers dare not go on strike - they're already struggling to manage on their meagre wages and if they strike then they don't get paid for whatever period they're striking for, and they're aware that they risk losing their jobs.

Not to mention that our current government here has removed at least some of the power from the unions (making the quorum required from Trades Union membership voters higher, before it's lawful to take industrial action).

I personally have voted to take strike action over pay and conditions every year for many years now - ultimately, 'we' went on strike one time for a single day some years back and when it didn't appear to work, 'we' gave up and went back to the grindstone.  We've never managed to get a majority in favour of industrial action ever since, despite what austerity has been doing to our workforce (collectively, and individually) and the fact that almost no-one is happy with the circumstances.

The fear of the populace is not from having some imperceptible & subtle power to influence those in charge, it's from the very real, very concrete fear of being worse off than they already are, I think.  (A point which I think you yourself already touched on previously in this thread, Anon100.)

Yes, if all went on strike together then those in power couldn't very well fire everyone all at once, but how to mobilise 100% (or close to it) of the workforce to take such action, when every individual has those personal-level worries looming large in the forefronts of their minds, and their wallets?  And then scale that problem up to a nation the size and structure (if that's the right word) of the US.

That's what scares me and angers me right now. That people are so ready to let people do that again.

Yes, agreed - we need an answer to my question above, and I'm just not sure where that answer is going to come from for the moment.

I'm certainly preparing myself for a lot of campaigning and even protesting in the run up to our next general election, and keeping the conversation going with friends & colleagues who are on my same wavelength.

I'm reminded, again, of the "They came first..." piece by Martin Niemoeller.


[Eta: missing punctuation]
« Last Edit: September 26, 2020, 08:21:59 am by PerditaPickle »
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Anon100

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Re: Ruth Bader Ginsburg is dead, and perhaps so is the U.S.
« Reply #25 on: September 26, 2020, 09:54:56 am »
My own experience, however, is that the workers dare not go on strike - they're already struggling to manage on their meagre wages and if they strike then they don't get paid for whatever period they're striking for, and they're aware that they risk losing their jobs.

Not to mention that our current government here has removed at least some of the power from the unions (making the quorum required from Trades Union membership voters higher, before it's lawful to take industrial action).

I personally have voted to take strike action over pay and conditions every year for many years now - ultimately, 'we' went on strike one time for a single day some years back and when it didn't appear to work, 'we' gave up and went back to the grindstone.  We've never managed to get a majority in favour of industrial action ever since, despite what austerity has been doing to our workforce (collectively, and individually) and the fact that almost no-one is happy with the circumstances.

The fear of the populace is not from having some imperceptible & subtle power to influence those in charge, it's from the very real, very concrete fear of being worse off than they already are, I think.  (A point which I think you yourself already touched on previously in this thread, Anon100.)


Yes, and I admit that's not a fear or difficulty I have to face. I'm lucky. When my dad went on strike my mum did cleaning work and the neighbours helped but it was hard and I can see that's not an option for many.
It's been a long time since the unions had their teeth pulled and I guess the only way they would have their old power again is doing like the originals and breaking the law to strike.

Again you're right, but it feels like no one has offered a hope. All people see is what to fear and hate right now.
For a moment ( with the last vote on Brexit ) people did have the power to say 'we want to make these rules', I guess my disappointment that they were so angry but didn't even take a look at that option still colours my view.

So, how to bring people together when they each have their own fears?
What are they hoping things can be improved to? Can a blind list be made so they can see numbers and coordinate? If there is a light to aim for and a certainty that you aren't alone it makes those fears smaller.
How close are the communities? Can picket lines be formed? If others can pitch in then keeping food and support may be easier and if walls are formed then the protest is stronger.

Imperceptable? Subtle? I don't know., maybe just we gave it away so long ago that that power looks empty now.
Or maybe I'm just dreaming.. Thing is, hope's about the only thing that can bring people together right now. With Brexit all there was, was one side saying the other side is lying, or the other side saying we can blame everyone outside of the UK. I don't know about the US but I recall Trump doing the same blame game.

People need hope to come together behind. Need something positive or those fears and risks can't be overcome.

But, as I say, I don't know much. All I have is a distant view.

PerditaPickle

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Re: Ruth Bader Ginsburg is dead, and perhaps so is the U.S.
« Reply #26 on: September 27, 2020, 06:01:16 am »
People need hope to come together behind. Need something positive or those fears and risks can't be overcome.

This is the difficulty -- how to portray that hope/'something' positive in a way which the masses can get behind, to overcome those fears and risks in the forefronts of their minds?  Because, in your vision of things (and I agree), the masses appear to be very much required to effect the changes needed/desired.

How to mobilise the people?
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Re: Ruth Bader Ginsburg is dead, and perhaps so is the U.S.
« Reply #27 on: September 27, 2020, 02:09:23 pm »
This is the difficulty -- how to portray that hope/'something' positive in a way which the masses can get behind, to overcome those fears and risks in the forefronts of their minds?  Because, in your vision of things (and I agree), the masses appear to be very much required to effect the changes needed/desired.

How to mobilise the people?

You're right.
I've started a new post here ( https://ecauldron.com/forum/political-discussions/how-to-give-people-strength-to-stand-up/ ) because it feels such an important question and one best given it's own slot so it doesn't swamp this one or get lost.

Anon100

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Re: Ruth Bader Ginsburg is dead, and perhaps so is the U.S.
« Reply #28 on: September 30, 2020, 08:09:33 am »
You're right.

Ok. So here's the question I've not wanted to ask because it's the scariest one.

I still hope and believe that a majority could stop what's happening and may happen, but..
Given what I've heard of the recent debate and particularly, Trumps comments to a certain white supremacist group, what happens if this becomes a civil war?

I know it sounds drastic but.., well maybe not as most of you have already said how bad it is over there.

I'm not going to stop thinking that there's hope because there needs to be, I just need to ask because...   

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Re: Ruth Bader Ginsburg is dead, and perhaps so is the U.S.
« Reply #29 on: September 30, 2020, 10:24:33 am »
what happens if this becomes a civil war?

More people die.

It already is, you know; consider the people who have crashed their cars into protestors, police who have driven their bikes over protestors or even just randomly attacked people in the streets, or that kid who travelled several hundred miles to murder people and had a Christian group raise half a million dollars for him because apparently now killers are martyrs to the cause.

Any other country on Earth would have people talking about UN observers safeguarding elections and possibly peacekeepers.
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we shine like stars    - Covenant, "Bullet"

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Chavi (2006)
Elspeth (2010)
Marilyn (2013)

* Cauldron Staff

Host:
Sunflower

Message Board Staff
Board Coordinator:
Darkhawk

Assistant Board Coordinator:
Aster Breo

Senior Staff:
Aisling, Jenett, Sefiru

Staff:
Allaya, Chatelaine, EclecticWheel, HarpingHawke, Kylara, PerditaPickle, rocquelaire

Discord Chat Staff
Chat Coordinator:
Morag

Cauldron Council:
Bob, Catja, Emma-Eldritch, Fausta, Jubes, Kelly, LyricFox, Phouka, Sperran, Star, Steve, Tana

Site Administrator:
Randall

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