collapse
2020 Donation Drive

It's time for our annual Server Donation Drive! We need to raise at least $710 to keep The Cauldron's server online for another year. Please help! Either hit that Paypal button to the right and make a one-time donation in any amount or set up a monthly Bronze, Silver or Gold Donor subscription. You can find more info in this message!

Donations as of 23 September 2020: $539 donated. Only $171 more need! Thank you, donors!


Note: This total is updated manually, usually once a day


* Recent Posts

Re: Ruth Bader Ginsburg is dead, and perhaps so is the U.S. by anubisa
[Today at 01:28:57 am]


Re: Disconnection by Jenett
[Yesterday at 10:10:52 pm]


Re: Disconnection by Sefiru
[Yesterday at 06:47:08 pm]


Re: Autumn/September equinox plans (planning ahead) by Sefiru
[Yesterday at 06:41:44 pm]


Re: Disconnection by PerditaPickle
[Yesterday at 04:14:46 pm]

* "Unable to verify referring url. Please go back and try again" Problem Logging In?

If you get an "Unable to verify referring url. Please go back and try again" error when you try to log in, you need to be sure you are accessing the board with a url that starts with "https://ecauldron.com".  If it starts with https://www.ecauldron.com" (or "http://www.ecauldron.com") you will get this error because "www.ecauldron.com" is not technically the same website as "ecauldron.com". Moving to the more secure "https" means it is more picky about such things.

Author Topic: Republican Candidates: And Then There Were 4  (Read 6651 times)

sailor

  • Grand Master Member
  • *******
  • Join Date: Jul 2011
  • Posts: 1505
  • Total likes: 0
    • View Profile
Re: Republican Candidates: And Then There Were 4
« Reply #75 on: January 28, 2012, 11:16:06 am »
Quote from: Altair;40599
Hmm. I don't recall saying anything of the sort in my posts. Can you cite specifics, as I have done with Gingrich's own words?



And if you want to argue about the merits of the food stamp program, go right ahead. I'll argue that making sure people have basic food needs met in very tough times is in our national interest...

...but that's NOT what this discussion is about. This is about Gingrich, in his own words, specifically linking food stamps to black people, when you yourself admit that that's racist thinking--and then Gingrich going on to repeatedly use the term "food-stamp president" to refer to the only African American president in the nation's history.

That's the epitome of using code words to appeal to racists. *That's* what this discussion is about.

 
Again, you are linking it to black people. You are saying it's a code word. You again have pointed out that it's because Obama is black.  Newt is arguing ideology & effects, not race. Obama the Democrat is the food stamp President for being a Democrat while expanding the food stamp program in terms of eligibility and benefits.  Race does not play a part in what Newt said except in the minds of people who want anything bad that is said about Obama to have been said because Obama is black.

Altair

  • Adept Member
  • ********
  • Join Date: Jul 2011
  • Location: New York, New York
  • *
  • *
  • Posts: 3041
  • Country: us
  • Total likes: 407
  • Fly high and make the world follow
    • View Profile
    • Songs of the Metamythos
  • Religion: tree-hugging pagan
  • Preferred Pronouns: he/him/his
Re: Republican Candidates: And Then There Were 4
« Reply #76 on: January 28, 2012, 11:49:12 am »
Quote from: sailor;40613
Again, you are linking it to black people.


In Newt Gingrich's words, not mine:

“[I will] talk about why the African-American community should demand paychecks and not be satisfied with food stamps”

This despite, as has already been pointed out, the vast majority of food stamp recipients are white.

Gingrich's linkage. Not mine.
The first song sets the wheel in motion / The second is a song of love / The third song tells of Her devotion / The fourth cries joy from the sky above
The fifth song binds our fate to silence / and bids us live each moment well / The sixth unleashes rage and violence / The seventh song has truth to tell
The last song echoes through the ages / to ask its question all night long / And close the circle on these pages / These, the metamythos songs

Altair

  • Adept Member
  • ********
  • Join Date: Jul 2011
  • Location: New York, New York
  • *
  • *
  • Posts: 3041
  • Country: us
  • Total likes: 407
  • Fly high and make the world follow
    • View Profile
    • Songs of the Metamythos
  • Religion: tree-hugging pagan
  • Preferred Pronouns: he/him/his
Re: Republican Candidates: And Then There Were 4
« Reply #77 on: January 28, 2012, 11:53:47 am »
Quote from: sailor;40613
people who want anything bad that is said about Obama to have been said because Obama is black.


And I still eagerly await examples of the alleged many instances in which I've labeled any criticism of this president as racist.
The first song sets the wheel in motion / The second is a song of love / The third song tells of Her devotion / The fourth cries joy from the sky above
The fifth song binds our fate to silence / and bids us live each moment well / The sixth unleashes rage and violence / The seventh song has truth to tell
The last song echoes through the ages / to ask its question all night long / And close the circle on these pages / These, the metamythos songs

sailor

  • Grand Master Member
  • *******
  • Join Date: Jul 2011
  • Posts: 1505
  • Total likes: 0
    • View Profile
Re: Republican Candidates: And Then There Were 4
« Reply #78 on: January 28, 2012, 12:33:34 pm »
Quote from: Altair;40616
In Newt Gingrich's words, not mine:

“[I will] talk about why the African-American community should demand paychecks and not be satisfied with food stamps”

This despite, as has already been pointed out, the vast majority of food stamp recipients are white.

Gingrich's linkage. Not mine.

 
Full quote:
Quote
It’s going to come down to a series of debates next fall, in which the American people are going to try and figure out what’s the truth, cause they're going to see all these negative ads and all this negative stuff and they're going to say, tell me what the truth is. And I think I am the one candidate that we have who can go head to head with Obama, can explain conservative philosophy, can apply it in a practical way, can explain American history, and can take Obama’s ideas and his record, and convince the American people that he’s hopeless. The fact is, if I become your nominee, we will make the key test very simple. Food stamps, versus pay checks. Obama is the best food stamp  president in American history. More people are on food stamps today because of Obama’s policies than ever in history. I would like to be the best paycheck president in American history. Now, there’s no neighborhood I  know of in America where if you went around and asked people would you your children have food stamps or pay checks, you wouldn’t have a majority saying they’d rather have paychecks.”

“And so, I’m prepared, if the NAACP invites me, I’ll go to their convention to talk about why the African American community should demand pay checks and not be satisfied with food stamps. And I’ll go to them and I’ll explain a brand new social security opportunity for young people, which would be particularly good for African American males, because they’re the group that gets the smallest return on social security because they have the shortest life span. And under social security today, you don’t build up an estate, but if you’re allowed to build up an estate, if your tax money went into your savings and it was your money, if something happened to you, your family got you restate, the difference in transfer of wealth to the black community would be amazing.


He was talking in New Hampshire, so it was presumably an almost all, if not all, white audience.  

Note the gap between food stamp president vs pay check president and his willingness to go talk the NAACP.

I'll end my comments about Newt and food stamps; and withdraw my comment about you specifically saying any bad comments about Obama are driven by racism.

Altair

  • Adept Member
  • ********
  • Join Date: Jul 2011
  • Location: New York, New York
  • *
  • *
  • Posts: 3041
  • Country: us
  • Total likes: 407
  • Fly high and make the world follow
    • View Profile
    • Songs of the Metamythos
  • Religion: tree-hugging pagan
  • Preferred Pronouns: he/him/his
Re: Republican Candidates: And Then There Were 4
« Reply #79 on: January 28, 2012, 03:51:40 pm »
Quote from: sailor;40622
Full quote:


He was talking in New Hampshire, so it was presumably an almost all, if not all, white audience.  

Note the gap between food stamp president vs pay check president and his willingness to go talk the NAACP.

I'll end my comments about Newt and food stamps; and withdraw my comment about you specifically saying any bad comments about Obama are driven by racism.


Thanks for a fuller quotation.

The fact that he singled out the African American community before an all-white audience only underscores my point. The gap in his comments ("food-stamp president" is a meme he's returned to on the campaign trail since, repeatedly) is as meaningless as his alleged willingness to go speak to the NAACP.

But with the two of us having beaten this point to death, I'm sure others are more than capable of judging for themselves if racial code words are in use here.
The first song sets the wheel in motion / The second is a song of love / The third song tells of Her devotion / The fourth cries joy from the sky above
The fifth song binds our fate to silence / and bids us live each moment well / The sixth unleashes rage and violence / The seventh song has truth to tell
The last song echoes through the ages / to ask its question all night long / And close the circle on these pages / These, the metamythos songs

MadZealot

  • Adept Member
  • ********
  • Join Date: Nov 2011
  • Location: So Cal
  • Posts: 2469
  • Country: us
  • Total likes: 179
  • Eye yam tu papi.
    • View Profile
  • Religion: Bitter Clinger. Sith Lord.
Re: Republican Candidates: And Then There Were 4
« Reply #80 on: January 29, 2012, 02:40:08 am »
Quote from: Altair;40643
The fact that he singled out the African American community before an all-white audience only underscores my point. The gap in his comments ("food-stamp president" is a meme he's returned to on the campaign trail since, repeatedly) is as meaningless as his alleged willingness to go speak to the NAACP.


I dunno.... is it racist, now, to say black-anything in a room full of white folks?

Being now able to see the comments in a broader context, they certainly look less racist to me, which would mean they underscore your point less.  
I would suggest the gap in comments is only meaningless if one is intent on making a point.
And is it his 'alleged' willigness only because you say so, or do you know Newt's mind on the matter?

I do wish we could see the entirety of this speech, that way we'd have a better sense of whatever Newt was on about.  Maybe he mentioned African Americans or NAACP earlier in his speech... if so, then his comments above are not an arbitrary singling-out of African Americans, rather that they are woven into a broader context.  (I'm reminded of a snarky phrase from my bible-thumping days: a text without context is pretext.)  Note that, right below the mention of the NAACP, Newt talks about social security and estate wealth in terms of them being a boon to the African American community.  Are those comments part of a racist meme too?  Maybe I just don't recognize racist code like a good lil white boy should.  Then again I haven't been called a racist since at least 2008, when I told me dear steupmum I wa'ant backing Obama for prez.

I think that, if the NAACP invites Newt to address them, and if he agrees, then he SHOULD ask the tough questions.  Are African-Americans better off now, or worse, since Barry has been in office?  Is joblessness up or down?  Poverty rates?  Food stamps vs. paychecks?  I don't know if those rates are higher in the black community than the national average; they very well could be, but if so, it does not make one a racist to point out facts.  Then the question becomes one of whether the President has done anything to help improve the socioeconomic condition of a certain minority group, and that is a tough question worth asking.
Oh, is it time again to say "Fuck Trump gently in the ear with a swarm of pissed-off hornets?"?

Okay. Fuck Trump gently in the ear with a swarm of pissed-off hornets.

sailor

  • Grand Master Member
  • *******
  • Join Date: Jul 2011
  • Posts: 1505
  • Total likes: 0
    • View Profile
Re: Republican Candidates: And Then There Were 4
« Reply #81 on: January 29, 2012, 08:07:31 am »
Quote from: MadZealot;40752
I dunno.... is it racist, now, to say black-anything in a room full of white folks?

Being now able to see the comments in a broader context, they certainly look less racist to me, which would mean they underscore your point less.  
I would suggest the gap in comments is only meaningless if one is intent on making a point.
And is it his 'alleged' willigness only because you say so, or do you know Newt's mind on the matter?

I do wish we could see the entirety of this speech, that way we'd have a better sense of whatever Newt was on about.  Maybe he mentioned African Americans or NAACP earlier in his speech... if so, then his comments above are not an arbitrary singling-out of African Americans, rather that they are woven into a broader context.  (I'm reminded of a snarky phrase from my bible-thumping days: a text without context is pretext.)  Note that, right below the mention of the NAACP, Newt talks about social security and estate wealth in terms of them being a boon to the African American community.  Are those comments part of a racist meme too?  Maybe I just don't recognize racist code like a good lil white boy should.  Then again I haven't been called a racist since at least 2008, when I told me dear steupmum I wa'ant backing Obama for prez.

I think that, if the NAACP invites Newt to address them, and if he agrees, then he SHOULD ask the tough questions.  Are African-Americans better off now, or worse, since Barry has been in office?  Is joblessness up or down?  Poverty rates?  Food stamps vs. paychecks?  I don't know if those rates are higher in the black community than the national average; they very well could be, but if so, it does not make one a racist to point out facts.  Then the question becomes one of whether the President has done anything to help improve the socioeconomic condition of a certain minority group, and that is a tough question worth asking.

 
Per http://digitaljournal.com/article/317415?tp=1  about half way down alleges that Gingrich, in his book "Real Change" criticized Bush for failing to address the NAACP. Seems Newt is trying to reach out to blacks. Considering the social conservatism of Christian blacks probably matches up better with the GOP he could have hope of splitting the black vote.  

Although Plymouth, NH is an odd place to have made the speech. Population is only 3,500 or so residents; although it's not far from Dartmouth college.

As for blacks being better off under a black President, that's a tough one. In current terms probably not. Higher unemployment, etc than whites, still no apparent programs that will help with lack of education at the high school level and below.  

I doubt whether blacks are faring any better in this downturn, relative to other demographic groups than they did in previous ones and compared to their position before the recession.

Altair

  • Adept Member
  • ********
  • Join Date: Jul 2011
  • Location: New York, New York
  • *
  • *
  • Posts: 3041
  • Country: us
  • Total likes: 407
  • Fly high and make the world follow
    • View Profile
    • Songs of the Metamythos
  • Religion: tree-hugging pagan
  • Preferred Pronouns: he/him/his
Re: Republican Candidates: And Then There Were 4
« Reply #82 on: January 29, 2012, 09:17:09 am »
Quote from: MadZealot;40752
is it racist, now, to say black-anything in a room full of white folks?


Where have I ever made such an absurd contention?

My criticism is specific: You yourself have stated that most food stamp usage is by whites. Yet Gingrich singled out African Americans for his food stamp comments in front of an all-white audience. That makes those comments suspect.

Quote
I would suggest the gap in comments is only meaningless if one is intent on making a point.


Or if it's meaningless. None of my comments have ever claimed that Gingrich's "food stamps = African Americans" and "food-stamp president" came in the same week or the same day, let alone the same speech. My assumption, since I never heard them at the same time, was that they came at separate intervals. If you inferred otherwise, you have successfully disabused yourself of your own inference.

(Though you can perhaps be forgiven for making the inference. Re-reading my own posts, I see where I mentioned the NH speech and then said He follows that up by constantly referring to Obama, the nation's first African American president, as a "food-stamp president." "Follows that up" in that context is perhaps easily misread as meaning "in the very same speech", which was not my intent. I meant follows that up on the campaign trail.)

I referred to "food-stamp president" as a meme for a reason. A meme is an idea that takes on a life of its own through repetition, and Gingrich has repeated "food-stamp president" often on the campaign trail. In light of his NH comments, I think the meme is being wielded as racial code words.
The first song sets the wheel in motion / The second is a song of love / The third song tells of Her devotion / The fourth cries joy from the sky above
The fifth song binds our fate to silence / and bids us live each moment well / The sixth unleashes rage and violence / The seventh song has truth to tell
The last song echoes through the ages / to ask its question all night long / And close the circle on these pages / These, the metamythos songs

sailor

  • Grand Master Member
  • *******
  • Join Date: Jul 2011
  • Posts: 1505
  • Total likes: 0
    • View Profile
Re: Republican Candidates: And Then There Were 4
« Reply #83 on: January 29, 2012, 10:07:52 am »
Quote from: Altair;40767
Where have I ever made such an absurd contention?

My criticism is specific: You yourself have stated that most food stamp usage is by whites. Yet Gingrich singled out African Americans for his food stamp comments in front of an all-white audience. That makes those comments suspect.


 
By straight numbers, more whites get food stamps than blacks. But ...

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Supplemental_Nutrition_Assistance_Program#Impact
34% of SNAP recipients are white (hence by sheer numbers more whites)
22% of SNAP recipients are black
19% of SNAP recipients do not identify race

blacks make up 12% of the overall population, hence strictly as a percentage of US population drastically over represented.

27% of blacks are considered to live in poverty, so blacks as a percentage of population living in poverty they are under represented, but not drastically.

mandrina

  • Sr. Master Member
  • *******
  • Join Date: Jul 2011
  • Posts: 890
  • Total likes: 0
    • View Profile
Re: Republican Candidates: And Then There Were 4
« Reply #84 on: January 29, 2012, 10:34:54 am »
Quote from: sailor;40769
By straight numbers, more whites get food stamps than blacks. But ...

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Supplemental_Nutrition_Assistance_Program#Impact
34% of SNAP recipients are white (hence by sheer numbers more whites)
22% of SNAP recipients are black
19% of SNAP recipients do not identify race

blacks make up 12% of the overall population, hence strictly as a percentage of US population drastically over represented.

27% of blacks are considered to live in poverty, so blacks as a percentage of population living in poverty they are under represented, but not drastically.

 
you are saying that a smaller percentage of blacks live in poverty than the population as a whole?
Katrina

"I have a bad feeling about this."  Every good guy in the Star Wars saga, and an occasional bad guy as well.

sailor

  • Grand Master Member
  • *******
  • Join Date: Jul 2011
  • Posts: 1505
  • Total likes: 0
    • View Profile
Re: Republican Candidates: And Then There Were 4
« Reply #85 on: January 29, 2012, 11:05:30 am »
Quote from: mandrina;40770
you are saying that a smaller percentage of blacks live in poverty than the population as a whole?

 
No, or at least I don't think so as far as living in poverty.  I was referring to percentages relative to food stamps except for blacks being 12% of total US population.  

Re-reading the last section, I'm not sure I can draw a correlation between % of blacks being poor and their percentage of food stamp recipients.  I'd have to have percent of poor people who are black instead of black people who are poor. although I think I was trying to point out that a higher percentage of blacks live in poverty than whites, and thus more would (percentage) be getting food stamps.

I didn't see percentage of whites living in poverty. Nor a percentage of total population living in poverty.  

OK, let's rephrase this a bit.

If poverty was equally spread among the races, you would expect that 12% of people on food stamps would be black. That is with the assumption that food stamp usage closely correlates to poverty.

mandrina

  • Sr. Master Member
  • *******
  • Join Date: Jul 2011
  • Posts: 890
  • Total likes: 0
    • View Profile
Re: Republican Candidates: And Then There Were 4
« Reply #86 on: January 29, 2012, 02:46:37 pm »
Quote from: sailor;40774
No, or at least I don't think so as far as living in poverty.  I was referring to percentages relative to food stamps except for blacks being 12% of total US population.  

Re-reading the last section, I'm not sure I can draw a correlation between % of blacks being poor and their percentage of food stamp recipients.  I'd have to have percent of poor people who are black instead of black people who are poor. although I think I was trying to point out that a higher percentage of blacks live in poverty than whites, and thus more would (percentage) be getting food stamps.

I didn't see percentage of whites living in poverty. Nor a percentage of total population living in poverty.  

OK, let's rephrase this a bit.

If poverty was equally spread among the races, you would expect that 12% of people on food stamps would be black. That is with the assumption that food stamp usage closely correlates to poverty.


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Poverty_in_the_United_States
 

Among married families: 5.8% lived in poverty.[24] This number varied by ethnicity with
5.4% of white persons,[25]
8.3% of black persons,[26] and
14.9% of Hispanic persons (of any race)[27] living in poverty.
Among single parent families: 26.6% lived in poverty.[24] This number varied by ethnicity with
30% of white persons,[25]
40% of black persons,[26] and
30% of Hispanic persons (of any race)[27] living in poverty.
Among unrelated individuals living alone: 19.1% lived in poverty.[24] This number varied by ethnicity with
18% of white persons[28]
27.9% of black persons[27] and
27% of Hispanic persons (of any race)[29] living in poverty
[edit]Poverty and race
The US Census declared that in 2010 15.1% of the general population lived in poverty:[30]
9.9% of all non-Hispanic white persons
12.1% of all Asian persons
26.6% of all Hispanic persons (of any race)
27.4% of all black persons.
About half of those living in poverty are non-Hispanic white (19.6 million in 2010),[30] but poverty rates are much higher for blacks and Hispanics. Non-Hispanic white children comprised 57% of all poor rural children.[31]


 SO actually, blacks are under represented in food stamps as compared to what they should be by poverty level, which makes the attempt to link food stamps to blacks even more disingenuous.  Or racist.

so basically, you are backing up what Altair is saying.
Katrina

"I have a bad feeling about this."  Every good guy in the Star Wars saga, and an occasional bad guy as well.

LyricFox

  • Site Admin
  • *
  • Join Date: Jun 2011
  • Posts: 388
  • Country: 00
  • Total likes: 0
    • View Profile
Re: Republican Candidates: And Then There Were 4
« Reply #87 on: January 29, 2012, 03:47:23 pm »
Quote from: sailor;40449
Need I go on about an alternet article?


While I like some of the folks who have written for Alternet (and may still do), and I don't see it in quite the same light as Truthout, I'm still rrreeaalllllllyyy careful when I start reading over there.
Visit The Breast Cancer Site & Click to fund free Mammograms
Hosts\' Store: Doxy\'s Bazaar (w/Pagan Items)
Need Web Hosting? See The Cheap Web Hosting Report

LyricFox

  • Site Admin
  • *
  • Join Date: Jun 2011
  • Posts: 388
  • Country: 00
  • Total likes: 0
    • View Profile
Re: Republican Candidates: And Then There Were 4
« Reply #88 on: January 29, 2012, 03:51:42 pm »
Quote from: sailor;40556
You don't draw such a parallel unless you are thinking in racist lines.


I'd have to disagree with you here, Peter. This is dog whistle stuff that goes over really well in the Deep South. If Newt was from Colorado or New Hampshire, I'd be sitting right next to you. Coming from Georgia? Nope. I'd have to call it racist and intended to garner support from the southern GOP. Used one time and discarded, I could probably dismiss it, but over and over? I'm not even that tone deaf.
Visit The Breast Cancer Site & Click to fund free Mammograms
Hosts\' Store: Doxy\'s Bazaar (w/Pagan Items)
Need Web Hosting? See The Cheap Web Hosting Report

sailor

  • Grand Master Member
  • *******
  • Join Date: Jul 2011
  • Posts: 1505
  • Total likes: 0
    • View Profile
Re: Republican Candidates: And Then There Were 4
« Reply #89 on: January 29, 2012, 03:56:49 pm »
Quote from: mandrina;40792

[edit]Poverty and race
The US Census declared that in 2010 15.1% of the general population lived in poverty:[30]
9.9% of all non-Hispanic white persons
12.1% of all Asian persons
26.6% of all Hispanic persons (of any race)
27.4% of all black persons.
About half of those living in poverty are non-Hispanic white (19.6 million in 2010),[30] but poverty rates are much higher for blacks and Hispanics. Non-Hispanic white children comprised 57% of all poor rural children.[31]


 SO actually, blacks are under represented in food stamps as compared to what they should be by poverty level, which makes the attempt to link food stamps to blacks even more disingenuous.  Or racist.

so basically, you are backing up what Altair is saying.

 
Or what Newt was trying to say.  That blacks are the ones that need the most help in getting jobs rather than food stamps since they are way over represented in poverty compared to population.

Tags:
 

Related Topics

  Subject / Started by Replies Last post
9 Replies
1658 Views
Last post November 10, 2011, 08:44:10 pm
by celestialwolf
19 Replies
3556 Views
Last post June 08, 2012, 07:40:45 pm
by Sage
1 Replies
1701 Views
Last post September 11, 2015, 06:23:31 pm
by milkeyedmender
0 Replies
601 Views
Last post September 14, 2015, 11:13:41 am
by RandallS
1 Replies
833 Views
Last post September 24, 2015, 02:19:35 pm
by RandallS

* Who's Online

  • Dot Guests: 42
  • Dot Hidden: 0
  • Dot Users: 0

There aren't any users online.

* Please Donate!

The Cauldron's server is expensive and requires monthly payments. Please become a Bronze, Silver or Gold Donor if you can. Donations are needed every month. Without member support, we can't afford the server.

* Shop & Support TC

The links below are affiliate links. When you click on one of these links you will go to the listed shopping site with The Cauldron's affiliate code. Any purchases you make during your visit will earn TC a tiny percentage of your purchase price at no extra cost to you.

* In Memoriam

Chavi (2006)
Elspeth (2010)
Marilyn (2013)

* Cauldron Staff

Host:
Sunflower

Message Board Staff
Board Coordinator:
Darkhawk

Assistant Board Coordinator:
Aster Breo

Senior Staff:
Aisling, Jenett, Sefiru

Staff:
Allaya, Chatelaine, EclecticWheel, HarpingHawke, Kylara, PerditaPickle, rocquelaire

Discord Chat Staff
Chat Coordinator:
Morag

Cauldron Council:
Bob, Catja, Emma-Eldritch, Fausta, Jubes, Kelly, LyricFox, Phouka, Sperran, Star, Steve, Tana

Site Administrator:
Randall

SimplePortal 2.3.6 © 2008-2014, SimplePortal