collapse

* Recent Posts

Re: moses or mose by SunflowerP
[Today at 09:52:33 pm]


Re: moses or mose by SunflowerP
[Today at 09:48:58 pm]


moses or mose by Larix
[Today at 08:24:25 pm]


Re: "2001: A Space Odyssey" Becomes Real? by Ashmire
[March 14, 2024, 01:21:17 am]


Re: "2001: A Space Odyssey" Becomes Real? by atr
[March 14, 2024, 01:15:08 am]

Author Topic: Marry a White Xtian, or Else!  (Read 7296 times)

RandallS

  • Site Admin
  • *
  • Join Date: Jun 2011
  • Location: NE Ohio
  • Posts: 10311
  • Country: us
  • Total likes: 296
    • View Profile
  • Religion: Hellenic Pagan
Re: Marry a White Xtian, or Else!
« Reply #45 on: May 26, 2018, 08:22:51 am »
That makes no sense.

The "divine command" theory of morality never really did make much sense to many people -- even some believers in the JCI deity. If any all-powerful deity just creates a moral code, it's completely arbitrary. That is, it could have said "Thou shall murder others to advance" is good just as easily as "thou shall not murder" is good because what is good is determined solely by that all-powerful deity -- there is no other standard of what is good and what is evil than the whim of that deity. If instead that deity creates moral laws based on what it has discovered are good and evil, then there is some external to that deity standard that the deity is just codifying and presenting to its people. In which case, that deity is not really the ultimate source of morality, that standard it discovered is.

Randall
RetroRoleplaying [Blog]: Microlite74/75/78/81, BX Advanced, and Other Old School Tabletop RPGs
Microlite20: Lots of Rules Lite Tabletop RPGs -- Many Free

ehbowen

  • Grand Master Member
  • *******
  • Join Date: Jul 2011
  • Location: Houston, Texas
  • Posts: 1396
  • Country: us
  • Total likes: 286
  • A Ways Around the Bend...
    • View Profile
    • Streamliner Schedules
  • Religion: Southern Baptist
Re: Marry a White Xtian, or Else!
« Reply #46 on: May 26, 2018, 02:22:48 pm »
The "divine command" theory of morality never really did make much sense to many people -- even some believers in the JCI deity. If any all-powerful deity just creates a moral code, it's completely arbitrary. That is, it could have said "Thou shall murder others to advance" is good just as easily as "thou shall not murder" is good because what is good is determined solely by that all-powerful deity -- there is no other standard of what is good and what is evil than the whim of that deity. If instead that deity creates moral laws based on what it has discovered are good and evil, then there is some external to that deity standard that the deity is just codifying and presenting to its people. In which case, that deity is not really the ultimate source of morality, that standard it discovered is.

Not arguing as such, BUT...when you're teaching third-graders, you don't try to explain to them that the circumference of a circle is the integral of the arc length over 2 pi radians, and you don't try to tell them that pi is computed from an infinite Taylor series of the perimeter of a polygon. You tell them 2 pi R, or pi D, and pi is 3.14. Close enough. Eventually, once they get older and more experienced and skilled, you can go deeper into the whys and wherefores. [Possible exception:]
 [ Invalid Attachment ]  

And that's how it should have been. From time immemorial my God has wanted to walk among us and live among us as our God, with we being his people (2 Corinthians 6:16). But the process has been interrupted, ofttimes very rudely. I'm hopeful that it can be restarted in the near future  ;). And then, perhaps anyone who wants to can enroll in graduate school.

You see, in my view this "discovery" process has been about finding the techniques and methods needed to overcome the Evil One. Some tactics work; some tactics just don't. I see my God as Sovereign over this universe; and I believe that if you wish to remain in it long-term you will personally need to acknowledge that sovereignty. Otherwise, at some point you get sifted out.

Is it POSSIBLE that there are other rules, other methods for overcoming evil and constructing an eternally stable society? I don't know. If you or your deities wish to try, feel free. Best of luck to you. And I believe my God is saying that there are principles which others have discovered which he heartily approves of and has integrated into his own matrix...such as the rule of law and government by consent of the governed. There may be more yet to come; we'll see. I think that he's generous with "experimental laboratories" for those who wish to push the limits and prove or disprove their own theories; I see the past seven or so decades in this world as one such.

I know I come across as doctrinaire hard-core fundamentalist. The thing is, in my mind, that's what Truth collapses to...in the same way that a slope function collapses to the derivative as the span becomes infinitely small. Do I understand that you (plural) don't agree? Sure I do. Do I see your position as valid? No, and to pretend that I did would be neither honest nor helpful. At the same time, I also disagree with my own pastor...in Bible Study of late, he's been pushing the doctrine of eternal punishment. I took it for a few minutes, then spoke up and said, "Sir, I respectfully disagree." So I catch it from both sides. (More here than from there, to be honest!)

Were there abuses and injustice in the halcyon days of U. S. 1950s Judeo-Christian society and morality? Sure there were. But there are also injustices and abuses now...and I would argue that black-balling a judge who has never been accused of discrimination or prejudice against any litigant in his courtroom based upon something in his personal papers (what's more personal than a will?) is one such. And I think that it would be much easier to correct and ameliorate the injustices of the 1950s within that framework than to do so within the prevailing secular mindset in this day and age.

Edited for formatting---EHB.
« Last Edit: May 26, 2018, 02:24:19 pm by ehbowen »
--------Eric H. Bowen
Where's the KABOOM? There was supposed to have been an Earth-shattering KABOOM!
Computers are like air conditioning. They become useless when you open Windows—Linus Torvalds.

Hariti

  • Sr. Master Member
  • *******
  • Join Date: Mar 2017
  • Location: Washington
  • *
  • Posts: 942
  • Country: us
  • Total likes: 320
  • Kyrie Eleison
    • View Profile
  • Religion: Extremely Eclectic
  • Preferred Pronouns: she/they
Re: Marry a White Xtian, or Else!
« Reply #47 on: May 26, 2018, 03:20:26 pm »
I would argue that black-balling a judge who has never been accused of discrimination or prejudice against any litigant in his courtroom based upon something in his personal papers (what's more personal than a will?) is one such. And I think that it would be much easier to correct and ameliorate the injustices of the 1950s within that framework than to do so within the prevailing secular mindset in this day and age.

How so? You just said that government with the consent of the governed is something you and your God approve of. If the governed disagree with the values and beliefs of a candidate for public office, shouldn't they be able to speak out against those beliefs and voice their desire that said candidate not hold office?
"The worshippers of the gods go to them; to the manes go the ancestor-worshippers; to the Deities who preside over the elements go their worshippers; My devotees come to Me." ... "Whichever devotee desires to adore whatever such Deity with faith, in all such votaries I make that particular faith unshakable. Endowed with that faith, a votary performs the worship of that particular deity and obtains the fruits thereof, these being granted by Me alone." - Sri Krishna

ehbowen

  • Grand Master Member
  • *******
  • Join Date: Jul 2011
  • Location: Houston, Texas
  • Posts: 1396
  • Country: us
  • Total likes: 286
  • A Ways Around the Bend...
    • View Profile
    • Streamliner Schedules
  • Religion: Southern Baptist
Re: Marry a White Xtian, or Else!
« Reply #48 on: May 26, 2018, 03:53:11 pm »
How so? You just said that government with the consent of the governed is something you and your God approve of. If the governed disagree with the values and beliefs of a candidate for public office, shouldn't they be able to speak out against those beliefs and voice their desire that said candidate not hold office?

The abuse is not the decision of the voters; the abuse, in my mind, is the rumormongering and gossip about the personal papers of a man who still stands accused of no public misdoings. Now I'm not saying that those who published this information were lying; were it so, the abuse would be a thousand times greater at minimum. And this information would eventually come out someday; remember Jesus's warnings about every idle word and that things hidden would be brought to light. But also keep in mind his words about "For with what judgment you judge, you will be judged; and with the measure you use, it will be measured back to you [Matthew 7:2]." IMNSHO, this means that those who published and disseminated this private information for political gain will have their own actions, thoughts and motives dissected just as minutely and even more publicly. And I suspect that they will not like it one little bit.
--------Eric H. Bowen
Where's the KABOOM? There was supposed to have been an Earth-shattering KABOOM!
Computers are like air conditioning. They become useless when you open Windows—Linus Torvalds.

SunflowerP

  • Host
  • *
  • Join Date: Jun 2011
  • Location: Calgary AB
  • Posts: 9906
  • Country: ca
  • Total likes: 729
  • Don't teach your grandmother to suck eggs!
    • View Profile
    • If You Ain't Makin' Waves, You Ain't Kickin' Hard Enough
  • Religion: Eclectic religious Witchcraft
  • Preferred Pronouns: sie/hir/hirs/hirself
Re: Marry a White Xtian, or Else!
« Reply #49 on: May 26, 2018, 04:19:57 pm »
I was originally not going to post on this topic at all; pick your battles and so forth. But, this morning, there was a post on a blog which I follow which spoke to a similar issue:

Excerpt from The Market Ticker by Karl Denninger:
Quote
<snip> For 30+ years the "answer" from the crazies on both the left and right is immigration.  But not just any immigration -- immigrants from turd-world ****holes that like to make lots of babies.<snip>

*** MOD HAT ON ***
Eric,

Our rules explicitly state, 'DO NOT make blanket condemnations of peoples, cultures, or religions,' and 'DO NOT post or attach content that is libelous, defamatory, pornographic, harassing, threatening, or hateful on the basis of race, ethnicity, religion, sex, etc.' (italics mine). The phrase I have bolded is egregiously in violation of those rules, and the fact that it's a pull-quote from the linked post, not your own words, makes no difference, since a quote within a post is even more part of the post than an attachment would be.

This is your first strike.

Sunflower
TC Forum Staff
I'm the AntiFa genderqueer commie eclectic wiccan Mod your alt-right bros warned you about.
I do so have a life; I just live part of it online!
“Selfishness is not living as one wishes to live, it is asking others to live as one wishes to live.” - Oscar Wilde
"Nobody's good at anything until they practice." - Brina (Yewberry)
My much-neglected blog "If You Ain't Makin' Waves, You Ain't Kickin' Hard Enough"

Hariti

  • Sr. Master Member
  • *******
  • Join Date: Mar 2017
  • Location: Washington
  • *
  • Posts: 942
  • Country: us
  • Total likes: 320
  • Kyrie Eleison
    • View Profile
  • Religion: Extremely Eclectic
  • Preferred Pronouns: she/they
Re: Marry a White Xtian, or Else!
« Reply #50 on: May 26, 2018, 04:57:37 pm »
The abuse is not the decision of the voters; the abuse, in my mind, is the rumormongering and gossip about the personal papers of a man who still stands accused of no public misdoings.

I personally consider that to be free speech. Had the papers been stolen or otherwise leaked *illegally* that would be a slightly different story. I would still think it was OK for voters to consider the contents of the will when they chose their candidate, but I would expect the people who leaked the info to get in trouble.

However, that's not the case here. The information was not disseminated illegally. The information may have been sensitive and personal, but it was hardly private. He didn't exactly have the will locked away in a safe in his bedroom waiting for people to read it after he died. The leak of information, fundamentally, was the result of his decision to share the will with other people and their decision to publicize it.

It's never a good idea to share information that you don't want to go public. Unless you explicitly sign a binding confidentiality agreement, you should expect that anything you tell anyone might someday become public. So it's probably best not to go sharing off things about yourself that might be widely detested and reviled.

My heart's hardly bleeding for the man. He wrote the will. He knew that the views he expressed therein were inconsistent with the views of the majority of his constituents. He should've kept it secret, or not wrote it at all. In other words, he should've seen this coming as soon as he wrote what he wrote and decided to share it.
"The worshippers of the gods go to them; to the manes go the ancestor-worshippers; to the Deities who preside over the elements go their worshippers; My devotees come to Me." ... "Whichever devotee desires to adore whatever such Deity with faith, in all such votaries I make that particular faith unshakable. Endowed with that faith, a votary performs the worship of that particular deity and obtains the fruits thereof, these being granted by Me alone." - Sri Krishna

ehbowen

  • Grand Master Member
  • *******
  • Join Date: Jul 2011
  • Location: Houston, Texas
  • Posts: 1396
  • Country: us
  • Total likes: 286
  • A Ways Around the Bend...
    • View Profile
    • Streamliner Schedules
  • Religion: Southern Baptist
Re: Marry a White Xtian, or Else!
« Reply #51 on: May 26, 2018, 05:22:15 pm »
I personally consider that to be free speech.

I do believe in freedom of speech. But I also believe in responsibility for speech...and indeed for all of one's actions.
--------Eric H. Bowen
Where's the KABOOM? There was supposed to have been an Earth-shattering KABOOM!
Computers are like air conditioning. They become useless when you open Windows—Linus Torvalds.

RandallS

  • Site Admin
  • *
  • Join Date: Jun 2011
  • Location: NE Ohio
  • Posts: 10311
  • Country: us
  • Total likes: 296
    • View Profile
  • Religion: Hellenic Pagan
Re: Marry a White Xtian, or Else!
« Reply #52 on: May 26, 2018, 06:14:05 pm »
I know I come across as doctrinaire hard-core fundamentalist.

Yes, you do -- and at times, you come across as not just a fundamentalist, but as a "fundie". I have few problems talking with fundamentalist Christians, but find it discussing issues with the more "fundie" camp to be a pointless waste of my time and energy.

Quote
The thing is, in my mind, that's what Truth collapses to...in the same way that a slope function collapses to the derivative as the span becomes infinitely small. Do I understand that you (plural) don't agree? Sure I do. Do I see your position as valid? No, and to pretend that I did would be neither honest nor helpful.

Sad news, for you. I (and probably most non-Christians and likely many non-Fundamentalist Christians) do not see most of your positions as valid either. Worse, many of your positions (and the positions of the fundie branch of Fundamentalist Christianity)  seem to be actively hateful to others, harmful to others, or just plain weird. Quite frankly, you post along fine for a while, then something like thread like this comes up and you take a position that seems nonsensical (that candidates should not be judged on their behavior in life when deciding whether or not to support them) and double down on it.  When this happens, you tend to push the forum rules to the limit. The latter at least has to stop.
Randall
RetroRoleplaying [Blog]: Microlite74/75/78/81, BX Advanced, and Other Old School Tabletop RPGs
Microlite20: Lots of Rules Lite Tabletop RPGs -- Many Free

SunflowerP

  • Host
  • *
  • Join Date: Jun 2011
  • Location: Calgary AB
  • Posts: 9906
  • Country: ca
  • Total likes: 729
  • Don't teach your grandmother to suck eggs!
    • View Profile
    • If You Ain't Makin' Waves, You Ain't Kickin' Hard Enough
  • Religion: Eclectic religious Witchcraft
  • Preferred Pronouns: sie/hir/hirs/hirself
Re: Marry a White Xtian, or Else!
« Reply #53 on: May 26, 2018, 06:54:27 pm »
... something in his personal papers (what's more personal than a will?)

The information may have been sensitive and personal, but it was hardly private. He didn't exactly have the will locked away in a safe in his bedroom waiting for people to read it after he died.

This might seem like a nitpick, but according to the OP, it wasn't a will, it was a living trust - one which sounds like it had payout conditions likely to be met well before the judge's demise. As such, it could not possibly be subject to the same privacy expectations as a will.

IANAL, so I'll leave it at that.

Sunflower
I'm the AntiFa genderqueer commie eclectic wiccan Mod your alt-right bros warned you about.
I do so have a life; I just live part of it online!
“Selfishness is not living as one wishes to live, it is asking others to live as one wishes to live.” - Oscar Wilde
"Nobody's good at anything until they practice." - Brina (Yewberry)
My much-neglected blog "If You Ain't Makin' Waves, You Ain't Kickin' Hard Enough"

Yei

  • Sr. Master Member
  • *******
  • Join Date: May 2012
  • *
  • *
  • Posts: 593
  • Country: au
  • Total likes: 182
    • View Profile
  • Religion: Mexica Reconstructionism
  • Preferred Pronouns: He/Him/His
Re: Marry a White Xtian, or Else!
« Reply #54 on: May 26, 2018, 08:26:55 pm »
I do believe in freedom of speech. But I also believe in responsibility for speech...and indeed for all of one's actions.

And why does 'responsibility for speech' apply only to us (the critics), not to the judge? Surely, he also has to take responsibility for his own speech?

MadZealot

  • Adept Member
  • ********
  • Join Date: Nov 2011
  • Location: So Cal
  • Posts: 2593
  • Country: us
  • Total likes: 337
  • Eye yam tu papi.
    • View Profile
  • Religion: Founder of the Church of No Pants.
Re: Marry a White Xtian, or Else!
« Reply #55 on: May 27, 2018, 02:14:51 am »
And why does 'responsibility for speech' apply only to us (the critics), not to the judge? Surely, he also has to take responsibility for his own speech?

This. Also, what I still can't understand is why his words and actions can't or shouldn't be used as part of assessing his fitness for public service.
I mean, damn, why listen to candidates or look at their resumes before making a decision, then, right?
You have my sword
And my shield
And my... um... slacks.

Yei

  • Sr. Master Member
  • *******
  • Join Date: May 2012
  • *
  • *
  • Posts: 593
  • Country: au
  • Total likes: 182
    • View Profile
  • Religion: Mexica Reconstructionism
  • Preferred Pronouns: He/Him/His
Re: Marry a White Xtian, or Else!
« Reply #56 on: May 30, 2018, 08:51:37 pm »
This. Also, what I still can't understand is why his words and actions can't or shouldn't be used as part of assessing his fitness for public service.
I mean, damn, why listen to candidates or look at their resumes before making a decision, then, right?

This has got me thinking about the relationship between criticism, free speech, and censorship, and why they are often conflated together. Generally, ‘free speech’ is used in situations where it does not apply. For example, in interpersonal debates, where ‘free speech’ is used to legitimise, sometimes offensive, even inaccurate claims, while criticism gets derided as censorship. We see this all the time in news and social media. However, that’s not really what ‘free speech’ is for, and does not apply to conversations between people, be they face to face or on Twitter. Interpersonal conversations are governed by social conventions, which are determined by the individuals involved, the context, and the culture to which those members belong. For example, in both there is an expectation that speakers will more or less tell the truth. We also expect speakers to listen to each other, and not to deliberately insult, attack, or deride fellow speakers or others.

This is not what ‘free speech’ is for. ‘Free speech,’ although the specific laws are different in different places, is supposed to guarantee people the right to participate in political discourse and processes, without fearing reprisals from the government. In other words, it means one can vote and criticise the government, and the government can’t do anything about it (barring a few caveats, such as inciting violence). This is simply not an issue between citizens.

Yei

  • Sr. Master Member
  • *******
  • Join Date: May 2012
  • *
  • *
  • Posts: 593
  • Country: au
  • Total likes: 182
    • View Profile
  • Religion: Mexica Reconstructionism
  • Preferred Pronouns: He/Him/His
Re: Marry a White Xtian, or Else!
« Reply #57 on: May 30, 2018, 09:10:30 pm »
This has got me thinking about the relationship between criticism, free speech, and censorship, and why they are often conflated together. Generally, ‘free speech’ is used in situations where it does not apply. For example, in interpersonal debates, where ‘free speech’ is used to legitimise, sometimes offensive, even inaccurate claims, while criticism gets derided as censorship. We see this all the time in news and social media. However, that’s not really what ‘free speech’ is for, and does not apply to conversations between people, be they face to face or on Twitter. Interpersonal conversations are governed by social conventions, which are determined by the individuals involved, the context, and the culture to which those members belong. For example, in both there is an expectation that speakers will more or less tell the truth. We also expect speakers to listen to each other, and not to deliberately insult, attack, or deride fellow speakers or others.

This is not what ‘free speech’ is for. ‘Free speech,’ although the specific laws are different in different places, is supposed to guarantee people the right to participate in political discourse and processes, without fearing reprisals from the government. In other words, it means one can vote and criticise the government, and the government can’t do anything about it (barring a few caveats, such as inciting violence). This is simply not an issue between citizens.

Forgot to add: even though a government cannot censor criticism, it can still argue in its defence and correct errors and misconceptions, and is bound my the same expectations that exist between people.

Tags:
 

Related Topics

  Subject / Started by Replies Last post
31 Replies
3957 Views
Last post June 16, 2012, 05:43:51 am
by MadZealot
0 Replies
1267 Views
Last post March 19, 2014, 04:42:43 am
by celtickitty16
58 Replies
5129 Views
Last post July 02, 2015, 11:31:38 pm
by SunflowerP
20 Replies
5395 Views
Last post November 09, 2017, 02:30:02 am
by RisingMoon
13 Replies
2519 Views
Last post October 02, 2018, 12:45:40 am
by Jack

* Who's Online

  • Dot Guests: 118
  • Dot Hidden: 0
  • Dot Users: 1
  • Dot Users Online:

* Please Donate!

The Cauldron's server is expensive and requires monthly payments. Please become a Bronze, Silver or Gold Donor if you can. Donations are needed every month. Without member support, we can't afford the server.

* Shop & Support TC

The links below are affiliate links. When you click on one of these links you will go to the listed shopping site with The Cauldron's affiliate code. Any purchases you make during your visit will earn TC a tiny percentage of your purchase price at no extra cost to you.

* In Memoriam

Chavi (2006)
Elspeth (2010)
Marilyn (2013)

* Cauldron Staff

Host:
Sunflower

Message Board Staff
Board Coordinator:
Darkhawk

Assistant Board Coordinator:
Aster Breo

Senior Staff:
Aisling, Allaya, Jenett, Sefiru

Staff:
Ashmire, EclecticWheel, HarpingHawke, Kylara, PerditaPickle, rocquelaire

Discord Chat Staff
Chat Coordinator:
Morag

'Up All Night' Coordinator:
Altair

Cauldron Council:
Bob, Catja, Chatelaine, Emma-Eldritch, Fausta, Jubes, Kelly, LyricFox, Phouka, Sperran, Star, Steve, Tana

Site Administrator:
Randall

SimplePortal 2.3.6 © 2008-2014, SimplePortal