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Author Topic: Marry a White Xtian, or Else!  (Read 7298 times)

ehbowen

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Re: Marry a White Xtian, or Else!
« Reply #30 on: May 22, 2018, 07:46:32 am »
And still... no.

It's not about making him nonexistent. Jeez. Hyperbole is bad for your blood pressure, and histrionics will give you cancer.
It's not about the guy's beliefs, so much as it's about what happens when he puts those beliefs into practice, and with the full authority of government behind him.

Anyone who thinks a certain category of people are less-than, for any reason whatsoever, simply cannot be trusted to evenly apply the rule of law, fairly, upon all persons.
They're a threat to essential liberty.
They're a threat to the basic 'Murrican tenet of equality under the law.

You're a conservative, right? You believe in liberty? Right?
Are you squicked out by equality? Is that a dirty word, because it means sodomites might have as much liberty as you?

Well I'll tell you a secret. Write this one down.

Liberty without equality is bullshit.

But people are not "equal". A ninety-eight pound woman is not going to be able to defend herself against a two-hundred twenty pound attacker...without an Equalizer. Which is why the second amendment is absolute. No exceptions. If you are too dangerous to possess a machine gun or your own private artillery, then you need to be behind bars or locked up as an inpatient in a mental hospital.

And what you seek is not liberty. It is license. License being the freedom to do whatever you feel like without consequences. But liberty is the freedom to do that which is good, that which is helpful, that which is constructive. It welcomes its appropriate consequences. Because without consequences, consistently realized, there is no reason for anyone to choose the good and avoid the evil. And when a society ceases to train its upcoming generations to make the choice to do good...that society cannot long stand.

Finally, again...what has he done? Where has he failed to execute the duties of his office fairly? What are the specific cases? That you're not going to vote for him...yes, I can understand that. But trying to raise a stink and publicly smear the guy based upon what he MIGHT do? Think about it.
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ehbowen

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Re: Marry a White Xtian, or Else!
« Reply #31 on: May 22, 2018, 07:57:17 am »
Eric (please tell me if you don't want me to use your personal name, you seem to use it often on TC and I assume it doesn't bother you), may I ask you, where did you get the idea that anyone was talking about thought crime? Nobody said that the man should be punished for his beliefs, or that his beliefs should be illegal. All the people in this thread have said is that his beliefs and actions were immoral and unethical, and that his clear racial bias makes him a poor candidate for public office.

You are reading subtext into other users posts which simply -is not there- and doesn't exist. Nobody is saying that anything should be done to punish this man. Rather, we are simply pointing out that he is a hateful bigot who holds views we find revolting and repulsive. There's no need to play the "thought crime" card because, quite frankly, nobody other than you is talking about crime of any sort.

You are more than welcome to use my personal name. I made the decision 34 years ago, when CompuServe was new and I was using a VICmodem, that I would not conceal my identity online. I do realize that there are very real risks to this decision. I accept the risks.

These days, "hateful bigot" equals "second (or third) class citizen". And the definition of what or who is a "bigot" has expanded greatly. The net effect is to push our society towards a monoculture in which no dissent from the Party Line is tolerable. Is that what you really want?
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ehbowen

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Re: Marry a White Xtian, or Else!
« Reply #32 on: May 22, 2018, 08:09:12 am »
So, if I understand you correctly, you believe that morality is not determined by the inherent goodness or maliciousness of either thought or deed, nor is it determined by the context in which a thought or deed occurs. The only morality is God. But if God is the only source of morality, then morality is not a component of the action/though itself, and the designation of one act or another as moral or immoral is inherently arbitrary. Therefore, no though or action can ever truly be moral.

Not at all. The reason that my God is the lodestar of morality is because He, along with his Family, has made the consistently implemented free will choice to reach out for what is good and right and highest and best. Do I believe he has made mistakes along the way? I do; Job 38-41 comes to mind. But I also believe that he has accepted responsibility for those mistakes and spent the next several thousand years hammering things out to the point which you see his character expressed in the Person of Jesus and explained by the Apostle Paul. So morality has not been decreed so much as it has been discovered.

Is the process "finished"? Probably not. While we have at least a theoretical idea of how to structure a society in this fallen world...how would that structure be affected if what we see now as miraculous abilities were thrown into the mix? Which is where I believe he wants to eventually head. But not without some structure to protect those who are not "gifted" and to preserve the best of what we have been able to accomplish through mundane means. In My Opinion, the suggestion box is open. I have a few ideas in it myself....
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Re: Marry a White Xtian, or Else!
« Reply #33 on: May 22, 2018, 03:02:46 pm »
You are more than welcome to use my personal name. I made the decision 34 years ago, when CompuServe was new and I was using a VICmodem, that I would not conceal my identity online. I do realize that there are very real risks to this decision. I accept the risks.

These days, "hateful bigot" equals "second (or third) class citizen". And the definition of what or who is a "bigot" has expanded greatly. The net effect is to push our society towards a monoculture in which no dissent from the Party Line is tolerable. Is that what you really want?

Of course not. Dissent is allowed and tolerable. If I disagree with someone, I will point that out, but I won't try to stop them from voicing their opinions or from holding those opinions.
"The worshippers of the gods go to them; to the manes go the ancestor-worshippers; to the Deities who preside over the elements go their worshippers; My devotees come to Me." ... "Whichever devotee desires to adore whatever such Deity with faith, in all such votaries I make that particular faith unshakable. Endowed with that faith, a votary performs the worship of that particular deity and obtains the fruits thereof, these being granted by Me alone." - Sri Krishna

MadZealot

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Re: Marry a White Xtian, or Else!
« Reply #34 on: May 22, 2018, 03:12:33 pm »
But people are not "equal". A ninety-eight pound woman is not going to be able to defend herself against a two-hundred twenty pound attacker...without an Equalizer. Which is why the second amendment is absolute. No exceptions. If you are too dangerous to possess a machine gun or your own private artillery, then you need to be behind bars or locked up as an inpatient in a mental hospital.

Le sigh. Ok. Yes. YES. People are not equal. A 90 lb woman is not the Hulk is not. Brilliant. We're not all the same. You'll never be a porn star. And I'll never be Stephen King.
That's not what we're talking about.
We're talking about equality, equal treatment, equal protection, under the law. And I know you know that. What I do not get is whether or not you're being obtuse on purpose.

Quote
And what you seek is not liberty. It is license. License being the freedom to do whatever you feel like without consequences. But liberty is the freedom to do that which is good, that which is helpful, that which is constructive. It welcomes its appropriate consequences. Because without consequences, consistently realized, there is no reason for anyone to choose the good and avoid the evil. And when a society ceases to train its upcoming generations to make the choice to do good...that society cannot long stand.

Well, no. And yes. And no.
No, the liberty I'm talking about is the freedom to live without being oppressed or marginalized, by people in power, based on on one's way of life, behavior, or political views, or religion.
Yes, it is the power or scope to act as one pleases, but within certain agreed-upon bounds: you can live your life as you see fit, so long as you stay within the scope of the law, and so long as you do not intrude on the rights and liberties of others.
No, it is not freedom without limits or consequences: there are penalties for violating the law and for trampling on others' rights.
But I suspect you mean divine or Godly consequences. Well, guess what, as important as it is that people who don't live as you do must suffer eternal torment, that's above your pay-grade, son. Those judgments and consequences are not your business, and I know the Book says so. You must trust they'll happen, in good time, in God time, and you'll have to trust He'll do His job when it suits His purposes. And if He doesn't, well, don't expect an explanation.

Quote
Finally, again...what has he done? Where has he failed to execute the duties of his office fairly? What are the specific cases? That you're not going to vote for him...yes, I can understand that. But trying to raise a stink and publicly smear the guy based upon what he MIGHT do? Think about it.

Again, I can't tell if you're being obtuse on purpose. It's not what he MIGHT do, it's what he HAS done. What he HAS done is demonstrate, THROUGH HIS ACTIONS, his obvious beliefs that brown people, gay people, and non-Christians are less-than. Now if he was going to fuck off into the woods by himself and just hate on all the everyone who isn't him, in pure hermithood, there wouldn't be a problem; nobody here would give a flat-hammered shit about his beliefs. We ALREADY know he is UNFIT FOR OFFICE because his beliefs are incongruent with the principle of fair treatment under the law, and his private beliefs will manifest in public acts. To use your words, we know we can't trust him to "make the right choices for the right reasons". Like Hillary, he is unfit.  Get it yet?
« Last Edit: May 22, 2018, 03:14:15 pm by MadZealot »
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Re: Marry a White Xtian, or Else!
« Reply #35 on: May 22, 2018, 03:31:10 pm »
Again, I can't tell if you're being obtuse on purpose. It's not what he MIGHT do, it's what he HAS done. What he HAS done is demonstrate, THROUGH HIS ACTIONS, his obvious beliefs that brown people, gay people, and non-Christians are less-than. Now if he was going to fuck off into the woods by himself and just hate on all the everyone who isn't him, in pure hermithood, there wouldn't be a problem; nobody here would give a flat-hammered shit about his beliefs. We ALREADY know he is UNFIT FOR OFFICE because his beliefs are incongruent with the principle of fair treatment under the law, and his private beliefs will manifest in public acts. To use your words, we know we can't trust him to "make the right choices for the right reasons". Like Hillary, he is unfit.  Get it yet?

And yet, WHERE ARE THE ACTIONS?  What is the DEMONSTRATED RESULT of unfair treatment? Because, as the decision of a private citizen, he wanted to reward his heirs for perpetuating a family structure in congruence with HIS PERSONAL beliefs? That does NOT, a priori, render him unfit, any more than the deputy's racism (referred to previously) rendered him unfit as a public servant!

Now if you can show a documented case where he acted unfairly and with prejudice toward someone in his courtroom, then sanction him. If you, personally, are unable to support him and want to withhold your vote, that's your business. But there is a very fine line between punishing people for ACTIONS and punishing them because they hold BELIEFS...and it's in danger of being crossed here.
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Where's the KABOOM? There was supposed to have been an Earth-shattering KABOOM!
Computers are like air conditioning. They become useless when you open Windows—Linus Torvalds.

ehbowen

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Re: Marry a White Xtian, or Else!
« Reply #36 on: May 22, 2018, 03:54:22 pm »
But there is a very fine line between punishing people for ACTIONS and punishing them because they hold BELIEFS...and it's in danger of being crossed here.

And another thought...that line is just as objectionable, and even more so, when it's crossed in the other direction. By considering people who are obviously guilty of multiple felonies, such as Hillary with classified information or anyone in the pharmaceutical or medical industries for antitrust violations and price-fixing, and giving them a pass because we like their beliefs and/or because they're connected to "the right people". It cuts both ways...and that applies to those on my side just as well.
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Where's the KABOOM? There was supposed to have been an Earth-shattering KABOOM!
Computers are like air conditioning. They become useless when you open Windows—Linus Torvalds.

MadZealot

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Re: Marry a White Xtian, or Else!
« Reply #37 on: May 22, 2018, 04:19:33 pm »
And yet, WHERE ARE THE ACTIONS?  What is the DEMONSTRATED RESULT of unfair treatment? Because, as the decision of a private citizen, he wanted to reward his heirs for perpetuating a family structure in congruence with HIS PERSONAL beliefs? That does NOT, a priori, render him unfit, any more than the deputy's racism (referred to previously) rendered him unfit as a public servant!

So we're going with "deliberately obtuse", then.
The actions are right there, and actions speak to character and fitness for a position. if he's going to be so discriminatory in his private life, his ability to be fair and impartial towards all persons is inherently suspect.
Yes, private past deeds are fair for discussion for would-be public servants. Think Trump and the Pussy Tape; maybe we don't want a serial misogynist in that office. BJ Clinton and Gennifer Flowers; similar commentary. Or, to suit your political persuasion: Hillary and Benghazi. Or, shit, even better: when young Barry Obama smoked a joing and grew his 'fro out that one time.

And private beliefs matter as much. Do you support a pro-gun candidate? A pro-choice candidate? You'll support either, or neither, or both, depending on your beliefs.
Would a black man not be reasonably concerned if he's in a courtroom with a judge whose "private beliefs" lead him to membership in the Klan?

And of course a racist had better not be a cop! Why allow an asshole to act under the state's monopoly on force?
Jesus. I'm surprised that even had to be said.

Quote
Now if you can show a documented case where he acted unfairly and with prejudice toward someone in his courtroom, then sanction him. If you, personally, are unable to support him and want to withhold your vote, that's your business. But there is a very fine line between punishing people for ACTIONS and punishing them because they hold BELIEFS...and it's in danger of being crossed here.

NO, the point is to have it not get to that point. If you wait until he violates someone's rights, you've failed the citizen, and you've damaged the system. The goal is to have a public servant who'll not fuck up, who won't betray the public trust. Examining beliefs and past actions are one way we evaluate a person's fitness to serve in the public trust.

A racist is no more fit to be a judge than he is to be a cop. Again, I'm fucking surprised this had to be said.
« Last Edit: May 22, 2018, 04:24:09 pm by MadZealot »
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Re: Marry a White Xtian, or Else!
« Reply #38 on: May 22, 2018, 06:24:28 pm »
Not at all. The reason that my God is the lodestar of morality is because He, along with his Family, has made the consistently implemented free will choice to reach out for what is good and right and highest and best. Do I believe he has made mistakes along the way? I do; Job 38-41 comes to mind. But I also believe that he has accepted responsibility for those mistakes and spent the next several thousand years hammering things out to the point which you see his character expressed in the Person of Jesus and explained by the Apostle Paul. So morality has not been decreed so much as it has been discovered.

Is the process "finished"? Probably not. While we have at least a theoretical idea of how to structure a society in this fallen world...how would that structure be affected if what we see now as miraculous abilities were thrown into the mix? Which is where I believe he wants to eventually head. But not without some structure to protect those who are not "gifted" and to preserve the best of what we have been able to accomplish through mundane means. In My Opinion, the suggestion box is open. I have a few ideas in it myself....

So let me get this straight. God is the arbiter of all morality, but he is a morally imperfect being who has had to learn morality.

...

That makes no sense.

If God is a being that has to learn morality (like the rest of us), then morality would logically be something that exists independent of God. In this case God would not determine morality, and it would therefore be completely acceptable to challenge God's morality both in practice and theologically. One could not rely on God's word as a source of moral guidance with any form of conviction. Furthermore, it implies that one can find moral 'correctness' without needing God at all. So why would being a Christian be important?

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Re: Marry a White Xtian, or Else!
« Reply #39 on: May 22, 2018, 06:35:13 pm »
It cuts both ways...and that applies to those on my side just as well.

Wait ... did anyone else catch this?

Quote
on my side

hmmm....

MadZealot

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Re: Marry a White Xtian, or Else!
« Reply #40 on: May 22, 2018, 08:08:29 pm »
Wait ... did anyone else catch this?

Yeah, I did.

"You shouldn't hold this man's beliefs (which I agree with) against him."

In a nutshell.
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Re: Marry a White Xtian, or Else!
« Reply #41 on: May 23, 2018, 03:09:10 pm »
Yeah, I did.

"You shouldn't hold this man's beliefs (which I agree with) against him."

In a nutshell.

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The thread's getting a little heated.  If you find yourself getting too frustrated, please consider taking a break from the conversation to cool down--or even dropping the subject entirely, if necessary.  If one particular poster is getting on your nerves, you may also want to consider putting them on Ignore (provided they aren't staff).  We don't object to heated discussion here, of course, but at a certain point it becomes unproductive.  Please remember that we're here to discuss issues, not personalities.  If you can't do that--take a break.

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Re: Marry a White Xtian, or Else!
« Reply #42 on: May 23, 2018, 03:44:28 pm »
*** MOD HAT ON ***
Everyone,

The thread's getting a little heated.  If you find yourself getting too frustrated, please consider taking a break from the conversation to cool down--or even dropping the subject entirely, if necessary.  If one particular poster is getting on your nerves, you may also want to consider putting them on Ignore (provided they aren't staff).  We don't object to heated discussion here, of course, but at a certain point it becomes unproductive.  Please remember that we're here to discuss issues, not personalities.  If you can't do that--take a break.

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You're right. i'll tone it down.
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Re: Marry a White Xtian, or Else!
« Reply #43 on: May 23, 2018, 06:17:59 pm »
The Dallas News Yanks Endorsement of Judge Because He’ll Disinherit His Kids for Not Marrying White Christians

https://www.dallasnews.com/opinion/editorials/2018/05/18/withdraw-vickers-cunninghamrecommendation-gop-runoff-dallas-county-commissioners-court-precinct-2

"However, recent developments have caused us to reconsider, and we are withdrawing our recommendation of Cunningham....

"In 2010, Cunningham established a living trust for his children, the terms of which suggest a personal problem with diversity. The trust provides financial distributions to his children if they reach certain milestones, including marriage to someone who is white, Christian and of the opposite sex."

He lost. (Will no one shed a tear?)

https://www.dallasnews.com/news/2018-elections/2018/05/22/dallas-candidate-promised-reward-kids-marrying-white-leads-early-vote

...but only by 25 votes. (In Texas, why am I not surprised?) There may be a recount.

The putative winner says:
"To say that this race was contentious is an understatement. To say that the last four days were bad for the Republican party is an understatement."

Let's hope so!
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Re: Marry a White Xtian, or Else!
« Reply #44 on: May 25, 2018, 06:42:56 pm »
He was an unreconstructed racist, a child of the thirties.
Interestingly, there were also children of the thirties who were not racist. Some of them were even people of color. Just noting.

I'm curious about how much integrity one can really have while simultaneously insisting that whole swathes of humanity are subhuman and outside the consideration of morality or human dignity.

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For 30+ years the "answer" from the crazies on both the left and right is immigration.  But not just any immigration -- immigrants from turd-world ****holes that like to make lots of babies.

Yikes, as the poet said. Man, I step out for five minutes, and we're deep in the weeds of white nationalist propaganda.

Quote
it strikes me that what this judge is doing is to perpetuate the traditions and culture which he grew up in.

His job, however, is to perpetuate the law of the land, as impartially as possible, in service to all of its citizens.

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but before you engage in societal or official sanction of him I say you'd better be damned sure...in the most literal sense...that you're right.

Oh, good, I was worried I wouldn't get vaguely, ominously threatened with Hell in this post.
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