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Author Topic: Margaret Thatcher dies after stroke, aged 87  (Read 2595 times)

axismundi

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Re: Margaret Thatcher dies after stroke, aged 87
« Reply #15 on: April 16, 2013, 04:58:20 am »
Quote from: Valentine;105520
I don't agree that the dead should be immune from criticism.  How are we to discuss history if we are never permitted to speak ill of the dead?  How are we supposed to learn if we can't ever say that someone no longer living harmed people or did wrong?  That is completely unworkable.  It is not wrong to discuss the harm Thatcher did, harm whose consequences affect many still living, just because she is now deceased.  That shows a profound lack of compassion and care for everyone else.

Holding back from attacking the defenseless was certainly not a value she herself would have espoused.  Frankly, I just wonder if there were any clauses in Thatcher's will making sure the worms wouldn't get one last government handout from her.

 
To attack someone who is now dead is to show that you could not win against them whilst they were still alive.  'Maggie's legacy' will be judged in the future when feelings have cooled down; the good and the bad.  To criticise and mock her, before her body is even properly cold and buried is to go against thousands of years of religious tradition and belief in many cultures.  In the past people felt that if you did not give even an enemy a good send off, the persons shade (spirit) could come for vengeance from you; it is almost as if her detractors are the shades and spirits, haunting her memory. Ultimately I feel they will reinforce and propagate further Thatchers values, a prospect I do not enjoy.

sailor

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Re: Margaret Thatcher dies after stroke, aged 87
« Reply #16 on: April 16, 2013, 07:50:23 am »
Quote from: Dark Midnight;105574


You want to protest againt what she stood for? Fine. But have a little respect for her family (and a little self respect) and leave it until AFTER the funeral!

 
Would it be to much to ask that criticism be more of her ideas and policies rather than of her as a person (ie ad hominum attacks)?  Most of what little I see has been attacks not on what she did or wanted to do but on her as a person.

sailor

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Re: Mragaret Thatcher dies after stroke, aged 87
« Reply #17 on: April 16, 2013, 07:54:01 am »
Quote from: Snowdrop;104757
Oh, sorry, I meant people in the UK.  I've always found Thatcher interesting because while there are politicians in the US that people either love or hate with little in between, I get the impression that the even today feelings in the UK about her are much more intense than the usual feelings here about former presidents.

 
Smaller country and the PM effectively has more power over the govt and it's actions than the President does.

Dark Midnight

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Re: Margaret Thatcher dies after stroke, aged 87
« Reply #18 on: April 16, 2013, 07:56:44 am »
Quote from: sailor;105600
Would it be to much to ask that criticism be more of her ideas and policies rather than of her as a person (ie ad hominum attacks)?  Most of what little I see has been attacks not on what she did or wanted to do but on her as a person.

 
For most people it probably is too much to ask, I'm afraid. :(
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RandallS

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Re: Margaret Thatcher dies after stroke, aged 87
« Reply #19 on: April 16, 2013, 08:03:03 am »
Quote from: sailor;105600
Most of what little I see has been attacks not on what she did or wanted to do but on her as a person.

Unfortunately, that's what I'm seeing as well -- and most of the attacks on her person don't even seem justified. But major political figures seem to get that all the time from those who oppose their politics. Look at all the personal attacks on Obama by people who oppose his policies.
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Aranel

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Re: Margaret Thatcher dies after stroke, aged 87
« Reply #20 on: April 16, 2013, 09:16:10 am »
Quote from: sailor;105600
Would it be to much to ask that criticism be more of her ideas and policies rather than of her as a person (ie ad hominum attacks)?  Most of what little I see has been attacks not on what she did or wanted to do but on her as a person.

 
I don't know... It could just possibly be because she had so much glee over destroying people's lives. Just possibly.

The main thing I'm angry about right now? The fucking funeral. The taxpayer shouldn't be funding it.

rocquelaire

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Margaret Thatcher dies after stroke, aged 87
« Reply #21 on: April 16, 2013, 02:06:30 pm »
Quote from: Dark Midnight;105574
I agree that the media storm is in poor taste, but not for the same reason. I believe that anyone and everyone has the innate right to be laid to rest in peace and their families allowed to grieve.

The people who are planning to protest her funeral are on about the same sewer level as the Westboro lot IMO.

You want to protest againt what she stood for? Fine. But have a little respect for her family (and a little self respect) and leave it until AFTER the funeral!

This. Her family should be allowed to grieve in peace. I do have concerns about how the funeral is being funded and Minister's expenses and so on but that is a political issue and should not encroach on her family laying her to rest.
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Aranel

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Re: Margaret Thatcher dies after stroke, aged 87
« Reply #22 on: April 16, 2013, 02:46:44 pm »
Quote from: rocquelaire;105637
This. Her family should be allowed to grieve in peace. I do have concerns about how the funeral is being funded and Minister's expenses and so on but that is a political issue and should not encroach on her family laying her to rest.

 
I disagree. My main problem is that it is being publicly funded. To the tune of £10 million. This is from the same government that said the taxpayer could not afford £11 million to protect some of the most vulnerable members of our society ( see: here).
We're paying for it, it's a public event, we have a right to protest it.

The family have not being forced to have this funeral for her, they've chosen to have it. They could have declined and given her a private funeral. Instead, they've chosen of their own free will to allow this publicly funded funeral to go ahead. They know full well how much public opinion is divided about her, so the fact people will be upset about paying for her funeral is not something that should have come as a shock to them.

So basically, my view is, yes it's very sad for the family, but they could have easily chosen to avoid the protests if they wish to avoid them by giving her a private funeral. Which they had every right to give her, they are not being forced to have this tax-payer funded funeral.

Now if this was a private funeral, then yes, protests would be out of order. But it's not a private funeral. They've chosen to make it a public event when they know full well that there are people out there who will be very angry about it. Those people have every right to mount a completely legal protest. If other people view it as being wrong, well, it shouldn't be a public event or we shouldn't have laws giving us the freedom to protest.

rocquelaire

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Margaret Thatcher dies after stroke, aged 87
« Reply #23 on: April 16, 2013, 03:00:55 pm »
Quote from: Aranel;105644
Now if this was a private funeral, then yes, protests would be out of order. But it's not a private funeral. They've chosen to make it a public event when they know full well that there are people out there who will be very angry about it. Those people have every right to mount a completely legal protest. If other people view it as being wrong, well, it shouldn't be a public event or we shouldn't have laws giving us the freedom to protest.

I understand where you're coming from and I agree that it should not be a public event however it seems to me that at least some members of her family are unlikely to have been involved in the decision making. Especially the younger  members who are less likely to understand the anger.

I think that it's disgusting that pensioners are dying because they cannot afford to heat their homes and that we cannot guarantee that our children are getting a decent education or even a decent meal but £10 million of public money is being spent on this funeral. I just think that it's more appropriate to protest at Downing Street than at the funeral. Obviously this is all only my opinion.
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MadZealot

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Re: Margaret Thatcher dies after stroke, aged 87
« Reply #24 on: April 16, 2013, 06:35:00 pm »
Quote from: RandallS;105606
Unfortunately, that's what I'm seeing as well -- and most of the attacks on her person don't even seem justified. But major political figures seem to get that all the time from those who oppose their politics. Look at all the personal attacks on Obama by people who oppose his policies.
Hell, there are still folks in the south who call Lincoln a tyrant.

ETA: I'm no fan of the current President, but if something happened to him I would not support any kind of picketing, protesting, or otherwise fucking-off during a memorial ceremony.  A time to every purpose.  To disrespect his family and admirers in their time of grieving betrays a severe lack of decency and class at the very least.
« Last Edit: April 16, 2013, 06:44:26 pm by MadZealot »
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MadZealot

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Re: Margaret Thatcher dies after stroke, aged 87
« Reply #25 on: April 16, 2013, 06:39:11 pm »
Quote from: Aranel;105611
The main thing I'm angry about right now? The fucking funeral. The taxpayer shouldn't be funding it.


Question: is it standard practice for the state taxpayers to fund a PM's funeral?  Or is this something special for Margaret Thatcher?
Spider Man 3 never happened. And Epstein didn't kill himself.

Aranel

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Re: Margaret Thatcher dies after stroke, aged 87
« Reply #26 on: April 16, 2013, 08:22:36 pm »
Quote from: MadZealot;105664
Question: is it standard practice for the state taxpayers to fund a PM's funeral?  Or is this something special for Margaret Thatcher?

 
Special for Thatcher.

Only other prime minster to have a taxpayer funded funeral was Churchill.

MadZealot

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Re: Margaret Thatcher dies after stroke, aged 87
« Reply #27 on: April 16, 2013, 08:35:46 pm »
Quote from: Aranel;105673
Special for Thatcher.

Only other prime minster to have a taxpayer funded funeral was Churchill.


Interesting.  I'd agree then on taking issue with the public funding on that precedent alone, regardless of personal beliefs about her.  

I could see an exception for Churchill though.
Spider Man 3 never happened. And Epstein didn't kill himself.

Aranel

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Re: Margaret Thatcher dies after stroke, aged 87
« Reply #28 on: April 16, 2013, 08:36:40 pm »
Quote from: Aranel;105673
Special for Thatcher.

Only other prime minster to have a taxpayer funded funeral was Churchill.

 
Rather, only prime minster in living memory to have a taxpayer funded funeral was Churchill.
There were 3 in the 19th century. The Duke of Wellington, Lord Palmerston and Gladstone. But things are quite a bit different now than they were in the 19th century.

sailor

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Re: Margaret Thatcher dies after stroke, aged 87
« Reply #29 on: April 17, 2013, 12:15:04 am »
Quote from: Aranel;105676
Rather, only prime minster in living memory to have a taxpayer funded funeral was Churchill.
There were 3 in the 19th century. The Duke of Wellington, Lord Palmerston and Gladstone. But things are quite a bit different now than they were in the 19th century.

 
Wouldn't you say though that Dame Thatcher made as many important changes as Churchill & Gladstone? (not familiar enough with UK history anymore to comment on Palmerston or the Duke of Wellington).

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