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Author Topic: Is there an animosity between the transgender community and the gay community?  (Read 5108 times)

PrincessKLS

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Upon realizing that Caitlyn Jenner turned out to be a homophobic and even transphobic transwoman; I'm wondering if there's animosity between the two groups. Not just from Caitlyn Jenner who I think is a horrible role model for the community but also when I was in college, I knew a gay guy who was extremely transphobic, especially toward trans women and also a bit misgynoistic. Also a trans women I knew felt a bit sensitive with our GSA group being more gay centered that when she became president she had the club centered more around transgender issues. She eventually created a trans support group before graduation. I don't think she was homophobic but she felt that a lot of the LGB people in the GSA and Spectrum clubs didn't know how to handle transgender issues and she was misgendered all the time.


But still, it still make me wonder what's up with the division?
« Last Edit: January 03, 2016, 07:12:56 pm by PrincessKLS »
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Quote from: PrincessKLS;184414
Upon realizing that Caitlyn Jenner turned out to be a homophobic and even transphobic transwoman; I'm wondering if there's animosity between the two groups. Not just from Caitlyn Jenner who I think is a horrible role model for the community but also when I was in college, I knew a gay guy who was extremely transphobic, especially toward trans women and also a bit misgynoistic. Also a trans women I knew felt a bit sensitive with our GSA group being more gay centered that when she became president she had the club centered more around transgender issues. She eventually created a trans support group before graduation. I don't think she was homophobic but she felt that a lot of the LGB people in the GSA and Spectrum clubs didn't know how to handle transgender issues and she was misgendered all the time.


But still, it still make me wonder what's up with the division?

 
There often is, though not always. What's up with that?

Well, individuals who are assholes, for one; there's nothing about being QUILTBAG that makes individuals immune from assholery.

For another, culturally-endemic bigotry: the broader culture is both heteronormative and cisnormative, as two separate bigotries, and that carries over into any subculture community. Because sexual orientation and gender identity are two distinct things, there's nothing about being gay that prevents one from being as transphobic as the next cis person, and nothing about being (het) trans that prevents one from being as homophobic as the next het person. (And just in general, nothing that prevents anyone who experiences one sort of oppression from being a bigot about another sort.)

And for a third, what's called 'respectability politics' - the idea that, if the marginalized group one is part of can just seem normal enough, by dissociating itself from those freaks and extremists over there it will become acceptable to the mainstream. So, a fair bit of it stems from gay and lesbian groups scrabbling for respectability by throwing the trans folks under the bus.

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Quote from: PrincessKLS;184414
Upon realizing that Caitlyn Jenner turned out to be a homophobic and even transphobic transwoman; I'm wondering if there's animosity between the two groups. Not just from Caitlyn Jenner who I think is a horrible role model for the community but also when I was in college, I knew a gay guy who was extremely transphobic, especially toward trans women and also a bit misgynoistic. Also a trans women I knew felt a bit sensitive with our GSA group being more gay centered that when she became president she had the club centered more around transgender issues. She eventually created a trans support group before graduation. I don't think she was homophobic but she felt that a lot of the LGB people in the GSA and Spectrum clubs didn't know how to handle transgender issues and she was misgendered all the time.


But still, it still make me wonder what's up with the division?

 
An excellent book that talks about this and other relevant issues is Julia Serano's Excluded:Making Feminist and Queer Movements More Inclusive
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Quote from: PrincessKLS;184414
Upon realizing that Caitlyn Jenner turned out to be a homophobic and even transphobic transwoman; I'm wondering if there's animosity between the two groups. Not just from Caitlyn Jenner who I think is a horrible role model for the community but also when I was in college, I knew a gay guy who was extremely transphobic, especially toward trans women and also a bit misgynoistic. Also a trans women I knew felt a bit sensitive with our GSA group being more gay centered that when she became president she had the club centered more around transgender issues. She eventually created a trans support group before graduation. I don't think she was homophobic but she felt that a lot of the LGB people in the GSA and Spectrum clubs didn't know how to handle transgender issues and she was misgendered all the time.


But still, it still make me wonder what's up with the division?

 
I was having a discussion about this with some friends the other night (several of whom are pretty active in different gay groups).  In fact it was one of them that brought it up, and he was wondering about why the LGBT group was trying to essentially kick the trans people out of their acronym.

My thoughts are that it has a lot to do with group identity and how the general public understands that identity.  The rest of the LGB are all sexual identities, while trans is a gender identity...not the same thing.  However quite a lot of people who don't know much about it blur the lines.  It is still a pretty common misconception that trans people are 'just gay people who want to be normal' (which isn't the case).

I don't have much experience with the phobic section of this debate, however.  I do tend to agree with Sunflower, that in any group there will be people who will have extreme beliefs.  I think there is also the possibility for self-hate to develop into a phobia of a group that someone either thinks is more privileged or perhaps that they identify with on some level, but don't want to.  

I simply think the larger movement is based on the LGB community wanting to bond on their common ground: being free to love who they are.  And the trans community wants to be free to BE who they are.  Close, but not the same thing.  I can definitely see how each group might want to have their own group, and be able to focus on the issues they hold dearest to their heart.
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Never heard that one before; I love it!

What Sunflower and Kylara said, plus I think there's more than a bit of visceral fear involved: Just as an ostensibly straight person who's maybe unsure about just how straight they are turns out to be the most vituperatively anti-gay person, a gay man or lesbian who's maybe more gender fluid than they care to admit will be most threatened by a transgender person and will lash out accordingly.

And I totally agree with the OP about Caitlyn Jenner. She was a shamelessly self-promoting Kardashianite media whore before her transition, and she's the same Kardashianite media whore now. I don't find that brave; just distasteful. Plus considering what her life experiences should have taught her, her politics are downright revolting.
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Quote from: Kylara;184444
I was having a discussion about this with some friends the other night (several of whom are pretty active in different gay groups).  In fact it was one of them that brought it up, and he was wondering about why the LGBT group was trying to essentially kick the trans people out of their acronym.

My thoughts are that it has a lot to do with group identity and how the general public understands that identity.  The rest of the LGB are all sexual identities, while trans is a gender identity...not the same thing.  However quite a lot of people who don't know much about it blur the lines.  It is still a pretty common misconception that trans people are 'just gay people who want to be normal' (which isn't the case).

I don't have much experience with the phobic section of this debate, however.  I do tend to agree with Sunflower, that in any group there will be people who will have extreme beliefs.  I think there is also the possibility for self-hate to develop into a phobia of a group that someone either thinks is more privileged or perhaps that they identify with on some level, but don't want to.  

I simply think the larger movement is based on the LGB community wanting to bond on their common ground: being free to love who they are.  And the trans community wants to be free to BE who they are.  Close, but not the same thing.  I can definitely see how each group might want to have their own group, and be able to focus on the issues they hold dearest to their heart.

I've heard about but the thing is the new acronyms for the gay community, includes other gender identities including Genderqueer and Intersex people. And if you look up Safe Zone that have a huge sexuality/gender alphabet that includes all possible members of minority groups including polyamorous people. And yes they have twoA's. One for Asexual and the other for allies. So whoever is saying the T needs to be dropped is uneducated on the new acronyms for the community.
« Last Edit: January 07, 2016, 03:01:56 pm by PrincessKLS »
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Quote from: SunflowerP;184415


And for a third, what's called 'respectability politics' - the idea that, if the marginalized group one is part of can just seem normal enough, by dissociating itself from those freaks and extremists over there it will become acceptable to the mainstream. So, a fair bit of it stems from gay and lesbian groups scrabbling for respectability by throwing the trans folks under the bus.

Sunflower

 
I so agree with this. We have several gay, cis, male friends. I have noticed that some of our friends, especially the ones who are/want to be married and adopt children have the most problems with transgender folks. I think they view themselves as falling within the cultural norm now and don't want that to be jeopardized.
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Quote from: PrincessKLS;184754
I've heard about but the thing is the new acronyms for the gay community, includes other gender identities including Genderqueer and Intersex people.


There are many proposed new acronyms, some of which are more inclusive than others, some of which are more popular than others, and none of which are accepted by everyone across the board as the New Standard.

I personally like QUILTBAG.

Quote
And if you look up Safe Zone that have a huge sexuality/gender alphabet


I get the impression that you're referring to Safe Zone as if it's a specific organization with a specific acronym but if so I have no idea what that group is.

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that includes all possible members of minority groups


That would be an impressive if there was actually a letter for each group. Or are you referring to something like MOGAI?

Quote
including polyamorous people.


I haven't actually run into that before at all.

Quote
And yes they have twoA's. One for Asexual and the other for allies.


The inclusion of "allies" is actually pretty controversial in the circles I run in because it's basically saying that people won't support human rights if they don't get to be included.

Quote
So whoever is saying the T needs to be dropped is uneducated on the new acronyms for the community.

 
I don't think they're "unclear" so much as they don't want MORE letters, they want FEWER letters.
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Quote from: PrincessKLS;184754
I've heard about but the thing is the new acronyms for the gay community, includes other gender identities including Genderqueer and Intersex people. And if you look up Safe Zone that have a huge sexuality/gender alphabet that includes all possible members of minority groups including polyamorous people. And yes they have twoA's. One for Asexual and the other for allies. So whoever is saying the T needs to be dropped is uneducated on the new acronyms for the community.

1. It's not 'new acronyms for the gay community'. One, the 'gay community' is, specifically, the community of same-sex-attracted people - often, the community of men attracted to men, as distinct from the lesbian community. And that's okay - QUILTBAG activism is not about trying to force everyone into one single big happy family whether they like it or not. Two, 'acronyms for the community' implies that they're imposed on the community from outside.

Rather, they are acronyms and other new terminology developed organically within the various communities under the (GLBT+)(LGBTTQIA)(QUILTBAG)(Queer)(GSRM)(DSG)(MOGAI)(other initialism) umbrella. (ETA: that should be 'MOGAI' without a space; I can't figure out how to get rid of the space.)

2. When I search for 'safe zone' using DuckDuckGo, the first relevant hit I get is The Safe Zone Project. I don't know if that's what you were referring to or not. It seems to mostly just use 'LGBTQ' or 'LGBTQ+' on the site, but it does have a huge ongoing vocabulary/glossary project.

The current glossary has, in the 'A's, Advocate, Ally, Androgyny/ous, Androsexual/Androphilic, Aromantic, and Asexual - not two, but six. The glossary also includes terms like Cisgender, Cisnormativity, Heretonormativity, Homophobia, etc - so it's definitely not just a comprehensive list 'that includes all possible members of minority groups'; it's a glossary of terms of all sorts that are used in connection with QUILTBAG activism.

Under its entry regarding umbrella initialisms, it includes two notes: 'There is no “correct” initialism or acronym — what is preferred varies by person, region, and over time,' and 'The efforts to represent more and more identities led to some folks describing the ever-lengthening initialism as “Alphabet Soup,” which was part of the impetus for GSM and DSG.' These actually contradict what you said about it, so possibly I didn't find the same 'Safe Zone' as you were referring to; if that's the case, you'll need to provide more information about the one you meant, ideally a direct link.

Many, many QUILTBAG folks are opposed to 'A' in initialisms standing for 'Ally'; while allies do experience pushback from heteronormative/cisnormative/binarist folks, they still have het/cis/binary privilege, and don't experience the marginalization that GSRM folks experience. IMO, allies wanting their own letter are trying to make it All About Them, as much (and in practice, IME, nearly always more) as about the marginalized folks they claim to be allies to.

(Speaking of allies who try to make it All About Them - one of the people behind The Safe Zone Project is Sam Killerman, a self-identified cis het 'ally' whose Genderbread Person turns out to have been plagiarized from earlier works by GSRM folks. I think it's especially important for me to mention this, since it's quite likely that - if that is the 'Safe Zone' you were referring to - you got to it via my own recommendation, before I was aware of the plagiarism problem, of the Genderbread Person. I'm now recommending The Gender Unicorn instead, and apologize to anyone misled by my earlier problematic rec.)

3. Those who want to drop the T are not 'uneducated on the new acronyms'. They might be transphobic assholes. They might just be talking about the way that orientational minorities, gender-identity minorities, the asexual/aromantic community, the 'responsible non-monogamy' communities (including but not limited to polyamorists), and so on don't sensically constitute a single community, even though they can be seen as part of the same broad-umbrella movement. (Gee, now what does that remind me of?) They might well even be transgender folks, who prefer to have their own communities within the movement, rather than being subsumed in the GLb...t soup.

And, again, 'the new acronyms for the community' implies that someone, somewhere, is some sort of prescriptive authority for what all the folks in the QUILTBAG are supposed to get on board with. Nope. It might possibly look like that to you, as an ally, because, yeah, to be a good ally you do have to listen to what folks in the communities say about themselves and their experiences, ands what new terminology has emerged. But you, as a supposed ally, have no business at all telling those you claim to be supporting that they're doing it wrong.

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« Last Edit: January 09, 2016, 02:07:15 am by SunflowerP »
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Quote from: PrincessKLS;184414
Upon realizing that Caitlyn Jenner turned out to be a homophobic and even transphobic transwoman; I'm wondering if there's animosity between the two groups. Not just from Caitlyn Jenner who I think is a horrible role model for the community but also when I was in college, I knew a gay guy who was extremely transphobic, especially toward trans women and also a bit misgynoistic. Also a trans women I knew felt a bit sensitive with our GSA group being more gay centered that when she became president she had the club centered more around transgender issues. She eventually created a trans support group before graduation. I don't think she was homophobic but she felt that a lot of the LGB people in the GSA and Spectrum clubs didn't know how to handle transgender issues and she was misgendered all the time.


But still, it still make me wonder what's up with the division?

I've often wondered just what the Gay Community was ... I mean, you've got gay people like Sir Elton John and Ellen Degeneres who are wealthy and very well known and who get paid huge amounts of money - but, then, most gay people don't even live in places where being openly gay is safe. Oh, it's better than it was, of course, but it's not nearly as good as it might be. Wasn't it Colorado that wanted to make it legal to discriminate against gays in housing and employment? Wasn't it in Kentucky - or some place like it - that that court clerk refused to marry gay partners after the SC ruling? Where was it, Wyoming, that that gay college student was tied to a fence and beaten and left to die? If gays make up 10% of the population - and, if that 10% is uniformly distributed - then clearly NYC, San Francisco, L A, and a few other places do not represent the whole G C. The G C is clearly still almost all in the closet and terrified to come out. 30 million Americans - that's half the population of the UK!

Oh, yes - the hostility - it comes not only from straights but also from gays. I see it  from both groups at my Program. "God doesn't make mistakes". "They're sick in the head" (this at a program full of mentally ill people!). "A man has a penis; a woman has a vagina; you are what you're born with". I try to explain that the condition occurs in the womb w/the switching on and off of hormones. Nobody listens.
« Last Edit: March 29, 2016, 02:28:34 am by DIASPORA-1963 »
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Quote from: DIASPORA-1963;189121


 
Hi, Diaspora,

A Reminder:
Our rules  generally prohibit editing after more than 2-3 minutes.  (Correcting  typos or minor mistakes is OK, but don't forget to fill in the "Reason  for Editing" box so that we know what's going on.)  This is because  after that long, several people have already read what you've written,  and they won't see the changes you make.  Because of that, they will  have difficulty following the conversation when someone replies to your  new, updated post.

If you need to correct or add anything  significant after those 2-3 minutes, you should just reply to yourself  and give the correction or additional information in the new post.   Double-posting is not considered bad behaviour here, and this will help  keep everyone on the same page, so to speak.

This isn't a formal  warning, just a reminder.  No reply is necessary, but if you have  questions or need clarification, please feel free to contact a member of  staff privately.

Thanks!


I'm going to add some specific pointers to this.

One, it's a really good idea to get in the habit of hitting 'Preview Post', so you can look over what you've written as it will look once it's posted, instead of only as it looks in the reply box. That can help you catch a lot of small issues. Since the editing-time window doesn't start until you click 'Submit reply', you can take your time looking your post over.

Another thing that can be useful in a similar way is to compose your post off the forum, in your own text-editing program, and copypaste it into the reply box after you're finished getting it just right.

Two, in looking over just what edits you did and when, I see that the main one that extended your editing time beyond what it should be was the first one - the timestamps show that one took you five minutes, which is already excessive for adding new material of substance. Your second edit just added one clarifying word to that new material, and while your third edit added a whole sentence to that new paragraph, it didn't take you long. If you had chosen, when you first decided to add a new paragraph, to do it in a separate post (as suggested in the second paragraph of the reminder notice), both of the later edits would have been to that post, and would have been within our editing-time limit.

It can be hard to predict, at the point when one is thinking, 'Oh, I want to fix/add this!', just how long an edit will take; one usually thinks it'll be quicker to do than it is. But as a rule of thumb on this, if you're adding an entire new sentence or paragraph, it's better to make a new post. The new material itself might not take more time than is allowed, but it will probably use up so much of that time that there's none left for any other edits.

I saw that you'd said some things about the ways this is an issue for you in another thread; these specific pointers are because of that, but I've put them here because this is where you exceeded the editing time limit. While we won't exempt you from any rules, we're happy to try to help you figure out things that will help you comply with them that work for you. I hope what I've said has been helpful.

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Quote from: PrincessKLS;184414

But still, it still make me wonder what's up with the division?

 
I've heard many gay people, or other members of the LGB community criticize gay trans people. For example, if a trans man is attracted to other men, I've heard people say "If you're attracted to men, why be trans? just stay a straight woman" which is DISGUSTINGLY transphobic. And considering your gender doesn't dictate who you're attracted to, it doesn't have much logic either. I've heard lots of transphobia come from the LGB community but I don't hear much homophobia from the trans community. I definitely wish trans people were more accepted into the community though!
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Quote from: ariosbi;191026
I've heard many gay people, or other members of the LGB community criticize gay trans people. For example, if a trans man is attracted to other men, I've heard people say "If you're attracted to men, why be trans? just stay a straight woman" which is DISGUSTINGLY transphobic. And considering your gender doesn't dictate who you're attracted to, it doesn't have much logic either. I've heard lots of transphobia come from the LGB community but I don't hear much homophobia from the trans community. I definitely wish trans people were more accepted into the community though!

 
Aye.  Thing is, being part of an oppressed minority sadly doesn't stop people being bigoted towards other oppressed minorities.
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Quote from: Jabberwocky;191027
Aye.  Thing is, being part of an oppressed minority sadly doesn't stop people being bigoted towards other oppressed minorities.

 
Yeah, that's basically what it comes down to.

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