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Author Topic: Hobby Lobby was only the beginning  (Read 9367 times)

Darkhawk

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Re: Hobby Lobby was only the beginning
« Reply #15 on: July 02, 2014, 03:06:19 pm »
Quote from: Melamphoros;152041
Well, it's a start but I'm still a bit angry at this.

 
There's a lot to be angry about, really.

http://www.patheos.com/blogs/lovejoyfeminism/2014/07/the-hobby-lobby-decision-a-summary-explanation.html is an interesting analysis.
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sailor

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Re: Hobby Lobby was only the beginning
« Reply #16 on: July 02, 2014, 04:57:43 pm »
Quote from: Darkhawk;152023
Religious desires, further, that are now legally claimed to be possessed by a corporation itself.  Not the owners.  By the company.  And because of that, that corporation now has the power to impose adherence with those beliefs upon its employees.

(I'm back to "I'll believe corporations are people when Texas executes one.")

 
Other than the opinion on religious rights for corporations was 5 for, 2 against and 2 not caring enough to vote?  And even Ginsburg accepts that non-profit corporations can have religious desires in her dissent.

Religious rights for for-profit corporations goes back at least to 1960.

sailor

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Re: Hobby Lobby was only the beginning
« Reply #17 on: July 02, 2014, 05:01:46 pm »
Quote from: stephyjh;152025
They didn't do their jobs. The law never said that Hobby Lobby HAD to provide contraception coverage, period. What it said is that if Hobby Lobby wanted to take the tax credit associated with offering health coverage to employees, that health coverage had to meet a minimum standard. What Hobby Lobby wanted, and got, was the right to have it both ways, to take the credit without meeting the minimum standard.

This wasn't just a bad decision for women. This was also a bad decision for big business, as it undermines the concept of the corporate veil, which means that there is now legal precedent for ignoring the separation between the person and their corporation. The reason that so many other major businesses were so opposed is that now when a business gets sued, even if it's a corporation and thus a separate legal entity, there's caselaw for considering the corporation an extension of its owners, and that means that the protection for the owners is called into question.

This wasn't about religious freedom. It was about supporting one religion over all others and about letting money override the rule of law.

 
Tax credit?  No, $475 million tax penalty for not complying with the mandate.

sailor

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Re: Hobby Lobby was only the beginning
« Reply #18 on: July 02, 2014, 05:06:53 pm »
Quote from: Juniperberry;152030
A lot of people seem to agree with you that this isn't the fault of Scotus, but the fault of Congress for enacting RFRA.

 
Wondering when somebody was going to throw the Native American religious practitioners under the bus.  RFRA was passed in the wake of Smith, and received a lot of support from the pagan community at the time. It's the reason that Voodou groups can meet in residential areas rather than areas zoned for killing of animals (ie an industrial area or specifically zoned exemption area.  Or that Native American's can use peyote without going to Federal prison for drug law violations.

Juniperberry

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Re: Hobby Lobby was only the beginning
« Reply #19 on: July 02, 2014, 08:06:22 pm »
Quote from: sailor;152053
Wondering when somebody was going to throw the Native American religious practitioners under the bus. .


Well. It only takes so long before lawyers start to exploit the letter of the law, I guess. ;)
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victoreia

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Re: Hobby Lobby was only the beginning
« Reply #20 on: July 03, 2014, 03:23:50 am »
Quote from: Juniperberry;152080
Well. It only takes so long before lawyers start to exploit the letter of the law, I guess. ;)

 
Here's George Takei's reaction.

I'm not sure which implication disturbs me more: that an employer can decide to deny my medications as against her/his/its/their religious beliefs, or that Atwood's A Handmaid's Tale is that much closer to reality. :yikes:
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sailor

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Re: Hobby Lobby was only the beginning
« Reply #21 on: July 03, 2014, 10:03:24 am »
Quote from: victoreia;152120
Here's George Takei's reaction.

I'm not sure which implication disturbs me more: that an employer can decide to deny my medications as against her/his/its/their religious beliefs, or that Atwood's A Handmaid's Tale is that much closer to reality. :yikes:

 
One question before I have to run some errands.  What was the legal and or practical difference between today and the middle of June in regards to women at HL and women at other companies getting the four medical items at issue in the case?

Skyth

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Re: Hobby Lobby was only the beginning
« Reply #22 on: July 03, 2014, 10:16:07 am »
Quote from: sailor;152143
One question before I have to run some errands.  What was the legal and or practical difference between today and the middle of June in regards to women at HL and women at other companies getting the four medical items at issue in the case?

 
Now companies are challenging access to any birth control at all or even allowing the doctor to mention it.  Plus they are all of a sudden claiming that their religion doesn't allow it when it isn't really religion driving the complaint.

http://www.latimes.com/business/hiltzik/la-fi-mh-expanded-hobby-lobby-20140702-column.html#page=1

Materialist

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Re: Hobby Lobby was only the beginning
« Reply #23 on: July 04, 2014, 10:12:52 am »
Quote from: Skyth;152145
Plus they are all of a sudden claiming that their religion doesn't allow it when it isn't really religion driving the complaint.


So Hobby Lobby funds companies that manufacture contraceptive medicine, but don't want their employees to have it. This disturbs me, to say the least. Obviously, their "deeply held religious beliefs" don't apply when Mucho Dollars are involved.

Materialist

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Re: Hobby Lobby was only the beginning
« Reply #24 on: July 04, 2014, 10:24:35 am »
Quote from: Castus;152027
Attack Hobby Lobby, attack the ruling,  but don't attack the justices.

 
Don't worry, I sent a message to the company explaining why I won't shop there any more, and the Interfaith Alliance and American Civil Liberties Union, with which I have membership with, have a keen interest in the case, and will most likely be asking for members' help in overturning the ruling later this year.

sailor

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Re: Hobby Lobby was only the beginning
« Reply #25 on: July 04, 2014, 11:06:50 am »
Quote from: Materialist;152210
So Hobby Lobby funds companies that manufacture contraceptive medicine, but don't want their employees to have it. This disturbs me, to say the least. Obviously, their "deeply held religious beliefs" don't apply when Mucho Dollars are involved.

 
They do?  That's news to everybody who is familiar with ERISA and similar laws.  Or should your boss be able to condemn you a much lower retirement income by saying you can invest your money only in lower performing investments?

sailor

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Re: Hobby Lobby was only the beginning
« Reply #26 on: July 04, 2014, 11:29:58 am »
Quote from: Skyth;152145
Now companies are challenging access to any birth control at all or even allowing the doctor to mention it.  Plus they are all of a sudden claiming that their religion doesn't allow it when it isn't really religion driving the complaint.

http://www.latimes.com/business/hiltzik/la-fi-mh-expanded-hobby-lobby-20140702-column.html#page=1

 
Article is only a little bit biased. Not withstanding ..

Of course the court is going to issue orders on all the pending cases.  They handed down a ruling and now all cases have to meet the standards of the new ruling.  That's standard practice.  

If the company lost, but the ruling was stayed pending HL, the trial court has to review it's opinion and make sure that the rejection still meets the new precedent.

Ditto for companies that had won, but a stay was issued.

From my understanding from various analysis pieces, most of the "problem" cases are going to lose.  The HL standard seems to be higher than the Gilardi case used (the Gilardi case coming from the link you provided).  Guess what?  When the appealate court follows the order from the USSC they'll probably reverse themselves in part and use the system that Obama set up for non-profits for the other parts.

What is not mentioned is how many of those cases had been filed long before the HL ruling.  Considering how lazy journalists have been, I'd confidently say all of them since the article was written July 2nd (Wednesday) and the decision was handed down on Monday. So, no, they are not "all of a sudden" claiming anything. They've been making these claims for a long time.

Of interest was that Ginsberg's dissent throws Muslims, Jews, Hindus, vegans and probably a lot more under the bus.  Individuals have to choose between following their religion (presuming that vegans can have a religious belief to be vegan) and not being covered by large parts of the ACA.

sailor

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Re: Hobby Lobby was only the beginning
« Reply #27 on: July 04, 2014, 12:02:00 pm »
Quote from: victoreia;152120
Here's George Takei's reaction.

I'm not sure which implication disturbs me more: that an employer can decide to deny my medications as against her/his/its/their religious beliefs, or that Atwood's A Handmaid's Tale is that much closer to reality. :yikes:

 
Two items:
How about the problem of the govt forcing you to either take the free to you medication and violate your personal beliefs or having to pay for it now when before the company had provided a medically similar drug that did meet your religious beliefs?

What part of Sharia law?  Maybe that the company will be closed on Fridays?  Or that the company will give charity to it's workers that are having a tough time?

Altair

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Re: Hobby Lobby was only the beginning
« Reply #28 on: July 04, 2014, 06:34:19 pm »
Quote from: sailor;152215
They do?  That's news to everybody who is familiar with ERISA and similar laws.  Or should your boss be able to condemn you a much lower retirement income by saying you can invest your money only in lower performing investments?


You're missing the point: How deeply held are Hobby Lobby's "religious convictions" if they'll invest in companies that develop contraceptives? If they'll source most of their product from China, with its policy of forced abortion?

No one's saying that they shouldn't invest in/do business with these outfits. But we're saying that by doing so, their "religious convictions" are shown to be selective, and therefore disingenuous. Certainly not worthy of trumping a compelling government interest.

Here's another important point: Corporate owner's should now be liable for what their corporations do. If the owner's personal religious convictions can bleed into the corporation to trump gov't interest, then corporate liability can flow past the corporate veil to the owners themselves.

http://takingnote.blogs.nytimes.com/2014/07/02/hobby-lobby-or-when-corporations-get-things-both-ways/?ref=opinion
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Altair

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Re: Hobby Lobby was only the beginning
« Reply #29 on: July 04, 2014, 06:41:03 pm »
Quote from: sailor;152218
ms for a long time.

Of interest was that Ginsberg's dissent throws Muslims, Jews, Hindus, vegans and probably a lot more under the bus.  Individuals have to choose between following their religion (presuming that vegans can have a religious belief to be vegan) and not being covered by large parts of the ACA.


How do you figure?

The basis of the opposition to this ruling is that employers should not be able to impose their personal religious beliefs on their employees' healthcare choices. That applies to Christians, Muslims, Jews, Hindus, or pagans, for that matter. (I have no idea where you're getting vegans from.)
The first song sets the wheel in motion / The second is a song of love / The third song tells of Her devotion / The fourth cries joy from the sky above
The fifth song binds our fate to silence / and bids us live each moment well / The sixth unleashes rage and violence / The seventh song has truth to tell
The last song echoes through the ages / to ask its question all night long / And close the circle on these pages / These, the metamythos songs

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