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Author Topic: History Repeating?  (Read 3259 times)

Altair

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History Repeating?
« on: September 29, 2016, 05:43:44 pm »
This review of a new biography of Hitler ran this week in the NY Times. The parallels highlighted in the book review are uncanny:

Quote

Mr. Ullrich, like other biographers, provides vivid insight into some factors that helped turn a “Munich rabble-rouser” — regarded by many as a self-obsessed “clown” with a strangely “scattershot, impulsive style” — into “the lord and master of the German Reich.”

• Hitler was often described as an egomaniac who “only loved himself” — a narcissist with a taste for self-dramatization and what Mr. Ullrich calls a “characteristic fondness for superlatives”...

• ...Hitler “was so thoroughly untruthful that he could no longer recognize the difference between lies and truth”...


There's much, much more. READ IT.
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Re: History Repeating?
« Reply #1 on: September 29, 2016, 07:05:24 pm »
Quote from: Altair;196870
This review of a new biography of Hitler ran this week in the NY Times. The parallels highlighted in the book review are uncanny:


This is exactly why he scares the hell out of me as a potential president- there are too many echos of Hitler (and other fascists) in the way he's conducting himself and his campaign. I suspect we're going to be in for a long and painful ride if he manages to get elected.
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Re: History Repeating?
« Reply #2 on: September 30, 2016, 08:56:29 am »
Quote from: Altair;196870
This review of a new biography of Hitler ran this week in the NY Times. The parallels highlighted in the book review are uncanny:



There's much, much more. READ IT.

 
I was just talking to my mother about this, actually. It's scary accurate.
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MadZealot

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Re: History Repeating?
« Reply #3 on: September 30, 2016, 09:00:02 am »
Quote from: MeadowRae;196908
It's scary accurate.



 Sí.  :eek:
Oh, is it time again to say "Fuck Trump gently in the ear with a swarm of pissed-off hornets?"?

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Re: History Repeating?
« Reply #4 on: September 30, 2016, 10:40:40 pm »
Quote from: Altair;196870
This review of a new biography of Hitler ran this week in the NY Times. The parallels highlighted in the book review are uncanny:



There's much, much more. READ IT.

 
Been seeing the parallels for a long, long time. Donald Trump getting to be the presidential candidate for the Republicans is honestly is the result of Republican party being taken over by a smaller, more radical group, which has been reminding me of the interactions between the traditional conservatives in Germany and the rising Nazi party, where the traditional conservatives felt like they could control Hitler if they just gave him the chancellorship, thinking he'd be satisfied with that level of power.

People are making the same mistake: thinking Trump could be controlled.

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Re: History Repeating?
« Reply #5 on: October 01, 2016, 01:15:07 am »
Quote from: Altair;196870
This review of a new biography of Hitler ran this week in the NY Times. The parallels highlighted in the book review are uncanny:



There's much, much more. READ IT.

 
While the parallels are frightening, let's remember how there are differences. America today is a much more diverse society and it is unlikely that Trump will be able to win it over. I also think that American and global values are different, and Trump's rhetoric is less appealing overall. I also think that Hitler was more intelligent overall than Trump, and better at managing his image and himself.

Aisling

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Re: History Repeating?
« Reply #6 on: October 01, 2016, 08:32:51 am »
Quote from: Yei;196939
While the parallels are frightening, let's remember how there are differences. America today is a much more diverse society and it is unlikely that Trump will be able to win it over. I also think that American and global values are different, and Trump's rhetoric is less appealing overall. I also think that Hitler was more intelligent overall than Trump, and better at managing his image and himself.

Bless your optimism, but denial is no friend of mine.  It's a fallacy to believe that having a diverse, globally-oriented society is protection against a totalitarian government.  Iran and Nazi Germany immediately spring to mind as examples.  

Hitler didn't win over the German people. The Nazi party used legislation to strip people of their civil liberties and to imprison and execute those who would challenge their power.  This is why I find Trump's restore "law and order" rhetoric and enthusiasm for stop and frisk so chilling.  

As for diversity, Germany went through a very progressive cultural renaissance in which a more global viewpoint was being embraced.  One of the things that fueled the Nazi movement was a conservative backlash against this change and the move away from 'traditional' values.  IIRC, one of the reasons that German resistance wasn't unified was that there was so much disparity between ideologies and leanings of the various resistance groups.

It is possible that Trump in power could be different? Absolutely, but I'm not betting my life on it.
« Last Edit: October 01, 2016, 08:35:55 am by Aisling »
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Re: History Repeating?
« Reply #7 on: October 01, 2016, 03:15:08 pm »
Quote from: Aisling;196949
 Hitler didn't win over the German people. The Nazi party used legislation to strip people of their civil liberties and to imprison and execute those who would challenge their power.


Something that would be much harder here. We have nothing like Article 48 (of the Weimar Constitution) which allowed the Reichstag Fire Decree (which supended a number of constitutionally protected civil liberities -- the only one of which can be suspended in the US is Habeus Corpus) which allowed Hilter's goverment to arrest and remove Communist members from the Reichstag which allowed the so-called Enabling Act (which effectively gave Hilter dictatorial powers) to pass with the required two-thirds vote. Even then it might not have passed if Hitler's private army wasn't "protecting" the remaining members of the Reichstag as they voted. For something like the "Enabling Act" to pass here, it would require ratification by the states as a constitutional amendment.

Oh and that private army of "Storm Troopers" was around 300K-400K strong by 1933 while the actual German Army was limited by the Treaty of Versailles to a maximum strength of 100K people. The Nazi's SA was 3 to 4 times the size of the German army.

Trump's rhetoric is very similar to Hilter's(and most other authoritarian leaders)  in many ways, but Trump winning the election (while a disaster for the country IMHO) would be unlikely to lead to Trump as dictator. The US in 2016 is a different country from Germany in 1933.

Quote
As for diversity, Germany went through a very progressive cultural renaissance in which a more global viewpoint was being embraced.


It also had hyperinflation and the Great Depression by the 1930s and was suffering under the restrictions (and requirement for hefty repatriations) from the Treaty of Versailles that made Germany's economy even worse.

Quote
One of the things that fueled the Nazi movement was a conservative backlash against this change and the move away from 'traditional' values.


The conservatives who backed Hitler had never really supported the Weimar Republic to begin with. Most wanted a return to the monarchy.
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Re: History Repeating?
« Reply #8 on: October 01, 2016, 03:47:03 pm »
Quote from: Altair;196870
This review of a new biography of Hitler ran this week in the NY Times. The parallels highlighted in the book review are uncanny:



There's much, much more. READ IT.

 
We are not Weimar Germany.
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Born Again Pagan

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Re: History Repeating?
« Reply #9 on: October 01, 2016, 04:31:45 pm »
Quote from: MeadowRae;196908
I was just talking to my mother about this, actually. It's scary accurate.

 
Many people do not realize that Hitler was elected in free elections. I expect T Rump to try to abolish congress with his famous "You're Fired" and if he wins I don't expect the USA will see any more elections until he passes away!

Yei

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Re: History Repeating?
« Reply #10 on: October 01, 2016, 04:50:29 pm »
Quote from: Aisling;196949
Bless your optimism, but denial is no friend of mine.  It's a fallacy to believe that having a diverse, globally-oriented society is protection against a totalitarian government.  Iran and Nazi Germany immediately spring to mind as examples.  

Hitler didn't win over the German people. The Nazi party used legislation to strip people of their civil liberties and to imprison and execute those who would challenge their power.  This is why I find Trump's restore "law and order" rhetoric and enthusiasm for stop and frisk so chilling.  

As for diversity, Germany went through a very progressive cultural renaissance in which a more global viewpoint was being embraced.  One of the things that fueled the Nazi movement was a conservative backlash against this change and the move away from 'traditional' values.  IIRC, one of the reasons that German resistance wasn't unified was that there was so much disparity between ideologies and leanings of the various resistance groups.

It is possible that Trump in power could be different? Absolutely, but I'm not betting my life on it.

 
It's not optimism, but an attempt at a realistic interpretation of history. Trump is not Hitler, and 2016 USA is not 1933 Germany. As others have pointed out, there are considerable contextual and social differences.

Sure the Weimar Republic was diverse, but is it anywhere close to the current USA. How would one measure such a thing anyway? Besides, Trump does not have a private army, as RandallS pointed out. American traditions are very different from early 20th century German Traditions. In the end, I just don't think that Trump is as skilled, talented, or as enduring, as Hitler was.

Of course, I could be wrong.

Aisling

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Re: History Repeating?
« Reply #11 on: October 01, 2016, 10:34:47 pm »
Quote from: Yei;196972
Trump is not Hitler, and 2016 USA is not 1933 Germany.

 
I am well aware of this fact.  Of the problems I do have, knowing my place in the time-space continuum is not usually among them. :)

For the record, I've not stated that Trump is the next Hitler, nor have I said that I think the US is going to end up as Nazi Germany reincarnate. If I believed either of those things, I'd be too busy packing my bags to have this conversation.  As I posted up-thread, I think we're going to be in for a long and painful ride.  

My response to your post was actually intended to address the assumption that you seemed to be making that our diversity and values were in and of themselves somehow a protection against fascism.  The Weimar Republic was an obvious example of an instance where there was a diversity and progressiveness prior to the rise of a fascist government.  By no means was my response intended to be a comprehensive comparison of the two situations (as Randall did so well in his post), because I was not actually trying to say the two are the same. What I was trying to point out, apparently without success, is that having a diverse and globally focused society does not on its own protect a country from becoming an authoritarian state.
"All your questions can be answered, if that is what you want.
But once you learn your answers, you can never unlearn them."
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Yei

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Re: History Repeating?
« Reply #12 on: October 02, 2016, 07:53:13 am »
Quote from: Aisling;196984
I am well aware of this fact.  Of the problems I do have, knowing my place in the time-space continuum is not usually among them. :)

For the record, I've not stated that Trump is the next Hitler, nor have I said that I think the US is going to end up as Nazi Germany reincarnate. If I believed either of those things, I'd be too busy packing my bags to have this conversation.  As I posted up-thread, I think we're going to be in for a long and painful ride.  

My response to your post was actually intended to address the assumption that you seemed to be making that our diversity and values were in and of themselves somehow a protection against fascism.  The Weimar Republic was an obvious example of an instance where there was a diversity and progressiveness prior to the rise of a fascist government.  By no means was my response intended to be a comprehensive comparison of the two situations (as Randall did so well in his post), because I was not actually trying to say the two are the same. What I was trying to point out, apparently without success, is that having a diverse and globally focused society does not on its own protect a country from becoming an authoritarian state.

 
I see and understand your point. Obviously, I did not mean to imply that diversity alone was sufficient to protect against fascism and authoritarianism.

Aisling

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Re: History Repeating?
« Reply #13 on: October 02, 2016, 09:01:48 am »
Quote from: Yei;197000
Obviously, I did not mean to imply that diversity alone was sufficient to protect against fascism and authoritarianism.


I can see that now, but wasn't getting that from your original post (which may be a failure to grok your meaning on my part). Sometimes getting around to a common understanding takes a bit of conversation. Thanks for clarifying.
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But once you learn your answers, you can never unlearn them."
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