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Author Topic: Have LGBT Counterattacks Gone Too Far?  (Read 6137 times)

sailor

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Re: Have LGBT Counterattacks Gone Too Far?
« Reply #45 on: April 16, 2012, 04:59:53 pm »
Quote from: Altair;50451
No one who posts "violent" messages on Joe.My.God is advocating actual violence. They're using hyperbole, strong rhetoric with violent images, to convey their message. But because those messages can be twisted to our opponents evil ends, Joe won't allow it. That's message management.


 
I thought there was supposed to be a new civility after violent rhetoric and images cased what's his name to shoot Gabby Gifford?

Altair

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Re: Have LGBT Counterattacks Gone Too Far?
« Reply #46 on: April 16, 2012, 08:50:45 pm »
Quote from: sailor;50500
I thought there was supposed to be a new civility after violent rhetoric and images cased what's his name to shoot Gabby Gifford?


Exactly. That and other extreme rhetoric is what I'm talking about. As queers gain more political traction, is it time to start retiring extreme rhetoric?

And for the record, very few people posted violent rhetoric on Joe.My.God *before* Giffords, and almost nobody does it now. Why hand our enemies the gift?
The first song sets the wheel in motion / The second is a song of love / The third song tells of Her devotion / The fourth cries joy from the sky above
The fifth song binds our fate to silence / and bids us live each moment well / The sixth unleashes rage and violence / The seventh song has truth to tell
The last song echoes through the ages / to ask its question all night long / And close the circle on these pages / These, the metamythos songs

sailor

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Re: Have LGBT Counterattacks Gone Too Far?
« Reply #47 on: April 16, 2012, 09:24:42 pm »
Quote from: Altair;50521
Exactly. That and other extreme rhetoric is what I'm talking about. As queers gain more political traction, is it time to start retiring extreme rhetoric?

And for the record, very few people posted violent rhetoric on Joe.My.God *before* Giffords, and almost nobody does it now. Why hand our enemies the gift?

 
I will take your word about Joe.My.God for both before and after.  One of the aggregating sites I read consistently points out large liberal sites or liberal leaders that call for violence when the rest of the liberal establishment or the site says nothing or does nothing.

The lede is usually along the lines of "What happened to the new civility? or is that code for conservatives to just shut up?"  Free speech for liberals / favored groups, but condemnation for conservatives.


http://www.themainewire.com/2012/04/“moderate-caucus”-chair-urges-cheney’s-execution/

RandallS

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Re: Have LGBT Counterattacks Gone Too Far?
« Reply #48 on: April 17, 2012, 09:07:37 am »
Quote from: sailor;50524
I will take your word about Joe.My.God for both before and after.  One of the aggregating sites I read consistently points out large liberal sites or liberal leaders that call for violence when the rest of the liberal establishment or the site says nothing or does nothing.

Are these major liberal sites and well-known liberal leaders -- as defined by liberals? Given the vocal American Right's very broad definition of "liberal" -- including many positions that actual liberals consider "not liberal" but middle of the road or even conservative -- it does matter.
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Lokabrenna

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Re: Have LGBT Counterattacks Gone Too Far?
« Reply #49 on: April 17, 2012, 08:18:00 pm »
Quote from: Altair;50288

The bottom line is, the lesbian and gay community now seems to be winning the war for marriage equality. Should we tone down the rhetoric to reflect that?


I saw this video today (potentially NSFW due to the cussing) and I thought of this thread:

I thought it was funny, personally.

Owl

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Re: Have LGBT Counterattacks Gone Too Far?
« Reply #50 on: April 17, 2012, 09:06:27 pm »
Quote from: lokabrenna;50646
i saw this video today (potentially nsfw due to the cussing) and i thought of this thread:

i thought it was funny, personally.


rotfl!
Reality is that which, when you stop believing in it, doesn't go away.

sailor

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Re: Have LGBT Counterattacks Gone Too Far?
« Reply #51 on: April 17, 2012, 09:08:48 pm »
Quote from: RandallS;50569
Are these major liberal sites and well-known liberal leaders -- as defined by liberals? Given the vocal American Right's very broad definition of "liberal" -- including many positions that actual liberals consider "not liberal" but middle of the road or even conservative -- it does matter.

 
Fourth attempt to post, so this is the short version
Huffington Post. Daily Kos. senior and mid level Obama administration officials. Democrat party staffers. Democrat members of the House

Annie Roonie

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Re: Have LGBT Counterattacks Gone Too Far?
« Reply #52 on: April 17, 2012, 11:52:51 pm »
Quote from: Altair;50288
The bottom line is, the lesbian and gay community now seems to be winning the war for marriage equality. Should we tone down the rhetoric to reflect that? Yes, we queer folks have been powerless underdogs for our entire political history--a condition that leads to creative and, shall we say, colorful means to get one's point across--but as we transition into a place of political success and power, should our means of communication transition too?

I've been thinking about this and even asked a few adults if they had heard of the Santorum Google bomb thing. Nobody had, but then none of them seem to spend as much time online as I do. Still, they read and do their FBs. They've just not registered the more creative voices, so I don't think there is a need to promote self-policing; however, that seems to be happening anyway. The comments on the youtube vid that Lokabrenna posted have many examples of this kind of self-policing - but it may be more just honest reaction. Which would, to my mind, mean that folks are already more receptive to a different tone which is not necessarily a step down in tone.

I am an ally, have led a GSA and have experienced the bigotry and passionate outcries. The tone I have observed that seems to unite within the community is one of compassionate authority. Outside of the community, the tone of dispassionate authority with logical argument devices seems to win big with those who are middle ground and even some who are transitioning from peer group endorsed bigotry to more self reliant thought processes.

Not that this is what should happen. I don't feel I can speak of shoulds. This is just what I have observed happening.
« Last Edit: April 17, 2012, 11:54:17 pm by Annie Roonie »

RandallS

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Re: Have LGBT Counterattacks Gone Too Far?
« Reply #53 on: April 18, 2012, 08:46:08 am »
Quote from: sailor;50651
Fourth attempt to post, so this is the short version
Huffington Post. Daily Kos. senior and mid level Obama administration officials. Democrat party staffers. Democrat members of the House

I'm going to ignore the two web sites as neither is the voice of any one person (or set group of people). Daily Kos, for example, allows just about anyone to post. I could point out similar conservative sites with the same problem.

As for "senior and mid level Obama administration officials. Democrat party staffers. Democrat members of the House" I don't here any more calls for violence or other forms of non-civil behavior from them than I do from their Republican counterparts. They can be no civility unless BOTH sides do it. One side unilaterally being civil while the other isn't just gives the rhetorical advantage to the side that isn't being civil. You'd think it would be the other way around, but in today's society, it does not seem to be. :(
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Aster Breo

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Have LGBT Counterattacks Gone Too Far?
« Reply #54 on: April 20, 2012, 03:43:54 pm »
Quote from: Altair;50521
As queers gain more political traction, is it time to start retiring extreme rhetoric?


I'm a lawyer and issue advocate by training and by profession and have worked in the areas of environmental, LGBT, and child advocacy for my entire career.

Several years ago, I had occasion to do some research into social movements and what makes them successful or not.  One of the things that seems common among successful movements is the presence of radical, "fringe" voices.

From a *purely political* perspective, those radical voices can serve the extremely important purpose of making the more moderate voices of the movement more... "palatable" to policy makers and have the effect of pushing those policy makers a bit further than they might otherwise go on the issue.  Sort of how the radical eco-terrorist groups who did things like spiking trees made the goals of the more moderate environmental advocacy organizations look more reasonable -- and, ultimately, helped to secure some very important policy wins.  I suspect this kind of thinking might also be behind HRC's attitude toward transgendered people -- sacrifice a "radical" minority in order to make progress for the more "mainstream" majority of their constituents.

Please understand:  I'm NOT talking about how society should be or about how broader social discourse should happen.  I'm NOT defending HRC's actions.  I'm only talking about political strategy and the rarified world of policy makers, both elected and appointed.  That world is very much about appearances and compromises.

And, personally, I think there is a right way to go about using this strategy, which does not entail throwing anyone under the bus, and a wrong way (see HRC).

The trick, of course, is to figure out how to capitalize on those radical voices without allowing the opposition to characterize them as representative of the entire movement.  It's a double edged sword.

Which is precisely why the Republican Party has weekly conference calls during which they define the message that EVERY Republican office holder is to use.  Yes, they really do that.  That's why they are so good at projecting a unified front.  

The Religious Right also began a strategy 20 years or so ago that is paying off for them.  Back then -- and continuously since -- they began fronting candidates for small, local offices (school boards, county councils, etc.). The plan was/is to get their loyal "soldiers" into politics at the ground floor and help them work their ways up into more and more important and influential offices, where they can really make a huge difference, in terms of policy.  It's working.

The Democrats, and liberals in general, have tended to rely on the idea that voters will "do the right thing" if they have enough information.  That is NOT working.  There is plenty of messaging research out there that shows that, when the facts don't fit a person's pre-existing frame ("frame" = how s/he views the world), s/he will reject the facts, rather than the frame.

Successful social movements understand these realities and continually work to frame the debate in the most effective way possible.  Those radical voices can help with that, if they are effectively framed, themselves.

A related point is that issue advocacy is rarely an all-or-nothing "game".  Progress is made in increments, sometimes very small increments, as we all know.  I don't think any one strategy can completely make or break a movement or an issue.

Personally, I don't believe any voice should be silenced.

Pragmatically, I think there is a way to use the radical voices to the advantage of the movement.  And I'm pretty sure that the major strategists on both sides of the issue are well aware of this.

Just my $0.02.  :)

~ Aster
"The status is not quo."  ~ Dr. Horrible

Altair

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Re: Have LGBT Counterattacks Gone Too Far?
« Reply #55 on: May 01, 2012, 05:49:31 pm »
Quote from: Aster Breo;51075



Interesting perspective; thanks. I find a lot to agree with in what you said (eg, one reason civil unions/domestic partnerships seem so reasonable to the mainstream and even some right-wingers now is because folks started pushing for same-sex marriage).

I don't think the situation with HRC and transgendered folks fits the mold, however, for various reasons.
The first song sets the wheel in motion / The second is a song of love / The third song tells of Her devotion / The fourth cries joy from the sky above
The fifth song binds our fate to silence / and bids us live each moment well / The sixth unleashes rage and violence / The seventh song has truth to tell
The last song echoes through the ages / to ask its question all night long / And close the circle on these pages / These, the metamythos songs

Lokabrenna

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Re: Have LGBT Counterattacks Gone Too Far?
« Reply #56 on: May 01, 2012, 07:27:53 pm »
Quote from: Altair;50288
Mandrina made an interesting comment in another thread....


I found this blog post and was reminded of this thread: "The Revolution Will Not Be Polite: The Issue of Nice Versus Good"

I think it makes a very good point that sometimes being "nice" won't help if you're trying to do good.

yewberry

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Re: Have LGBT Counterattacks Gone Too Far?
« Reply #57 on: May 01, 2012, 07:53:30 pm »
Quote from: Lokabrenna;52737
I found this blog post and was reminded of this thread: "The Revolution Will Not Be Polite: The Issue of Nice Versus Good"

I think it makes a very good point that sometimes being "nice" won't help if you're trying to do good.


Excellent article.  The assumption that hurling a well-timed insult reduces the hurler to the level of the oppressor is, well...insane.  Calling someone a dick is not on the same level as institutionalized oppression/privilege and never will be.

Brina

Lokabrenna

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Re: Have LGBT Counterattacks Gone Too Far?
« Reply #58 on: May 01, 2012, 08:31:10 pm »
Quote from: yewberry;52740
Excellent article.  The assumption that hurling a well-timed insult reduces the hurler to the level of the oppressor is, well...insane.  Calling someone a dick is not on the same level as institutionalized oppression/privilege and never will be.

Brina


On that note, be sure to check out the list of (mostly) non-oppressive insults here: http://iamateenagefeminist.tumblr.com/post/6555208572/complete-list-of-non-oppressive-insults

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Re: Have LGBT Counterattacks Gone Too Far?
« Reply #59 on: May 02, 2012, 09:01:43 pm »
Quote from: Altair;52710
I don't think the situation with HRC and transgendered folks fits the mold, however, for various reasons.

 
No, I'd say it doesn't.  Positioning trans folks as the "extreme" (which I can't recall if HRC does directly, but there's inevitably going to be a lot of overlap between GLB people who do do that, and GLB people who think HRC's focuses are just right) so inherently throws trans people under the bus that I can't see it as a genuine instance of the constructive framing Aster was talking about.  It's just self-normalizing by reifying the marginalization of others.

That's been the elephant in the parlor, and the cause of a fair bit of people talking past each other, throughout the thread - the phrase "extreme rhetoric" is really very vague, and can be (and frequently is) used in a wide range of ways, to refer to everything from advocating violence, to derogatory name-calling, to calling for "too much" social change (for whatever value of "too much" one wants to marginalize as extreme), to simply being "too angry".  That's what - I think - Valentine and Cigfran were trying to call attention to earlier in the thread, that that very phrase gets used, a lot, to silence trans folks, to try to guilt them into throwing themselves under the bus for the supposed greater good of the alphabet soup.  (I wish I'd been able to find the words to speak up about that earlier.)

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