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Author Topic: Guns and religion in America  (Read 3740 times)

Hariti

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Guns and religion in America
« on: December 08, 2018, 03:33:46 am »
I found this article, and reading it really made me think. It's a few months old at this point, but still highly relevant:

https://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2018/06/07/us/muslim-gun-owners-america.html

I'm a gun owner and advocate myself, (though I trend left on most other issues), and I've never considered that some people have a harder time owning guns than others.

Being the naive, blissfully ignorant person I am, I simply took gun rights groups at their word when they said they supported the Second Amendment. Never once did I ask "Do these guys support guns for Muslims? Gays? Blacks? Women? Or just for themselves." Instead I assumed, because they talk about freedom and liberty, and use that rhetoric, that they actually put those ideas into practice.

If the linked article is anything to go by, many of them don't. Apparently, conservative, gun owning, Second Amendment supporting, molon labe shouting Muslims aren't very welcome among conservative, gun owning, molon labe shouting Americans.

Frankly, I'm never going to look at a shooting range the same way again. I mean, I guess I'm just lucky I've never openly expressed my religion at the range! I wonder what would happen if I showed up with a bindi and turban? Yikes. Very off-putting read.

Thoughts?
"The worshippers of the gods go to them; to the manes go the ancestor-worshippers; to the Deities who preside over the elements go their worshippers; My devotees come to Me." ... "Whichever devotee desires to adore whatever such Deity with faith, in all such votaries I make that particular faith unshakable. Endowed with that faith, a votary performs the worship of that particular deity and obtains the fruits thereof, these being granted by Me alone." - Sri Krishna

Hariti

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Re: Guns and religion in America
« Reply #1 on: December 08, 2018, 03:38:18 am »


I somehow seem to have messed up when I made this thread, and posted it... somewhere? I'm in the wrong place, my mistake! It was meant to go in political discussions.
"The worshippers of the gods go to them; to the manes go the ancestor-worshippers; to the Deities who preside over the elements go their worshippers; My devotees come to Me." ... "Whichever devotee desires to adore whatever such Deity with faith, in all such votaries I make that particular faith unshakable. Endowed with that faith, a votary performs the worship of that particular deity and obtains the fruits thereof, these being granted by Me alone." - Sri Krishna

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Re: Guns and religion in America
« Reply #2 on: December 08, 2018, 09:38:01 am »
I found this article, and reading it really made me think. It's a few months old at this point, but still highly relevant:

https://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2018/06/07/us/muslim-gun-owners-america.html

I'm a gun owner and advocate myself, (though I trend left on most other issues), and I've never considered that some people have a harder time owning guns than others.

Being the naive, blissfully ignorant person I am, I simply took gun rights groups at their word when they said they supported the Second Amendment. Never once did I ask "Do these guys support guns for Muslims? Gays? Blacks? Women? Or just for themselves." Instead I assumed, because they talk about freedom and liberty, and use that rhetoric, that they actually put those ideas into practice.

If the linked article is anything to go by, many of them don't. Apparently, conservative, gun owning, Second Amendment supporting, molon labe shouting Muslims aren't very welcome among conservative, gun owning, molon labe shouting Americans.

Frankly, I'm never going to look at a shooting range the same way again. I mean, I guess I'm just lucky I've never openly expressed my religion at the range! I wonder what would happen if I showed up with a bindi and turban? Yikes. Very off-putting read.

Thoughts?

I'm always surprised at the extent to which other people who weren't raised among extreme conservative Christians get surprised when they find out these people are, indeed, extremists who desire harm to others outside their religion, simply because they can act like normal and even hospitable humans to people whom they don't happen to question as being "their kind of people".  I mean, it's not like they don't post openly on Facebook about how Good Christians need to militarize, it's just somehow not taken literally. 

Redfaery

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Re: Guns and religion in America
« Reply #3 on: December 08, 2018, 10:17:37 am »
I'm always surprised at the extent to which other people who weren't raised among extreme conservative Christians get surprised when they find out these people are, indeed, extremists who desire harm to others outside their religion, simply because they can act like normal and even hospitable humans to people whom they don't happen to question as being "their kind of people".  I mean, it's not like they don't post openly on Facebook about how Good Christians need to militarize, it's just somehow not taken literally.

I went to a private, evangelical highschool (two different ones, actually). I have to agree with this assessment. When I reconnected with some of my old pals on Facebook, I was hurt and disgusted by their posts. One of them posted a meme of a mushroom cloud with the caption "time to make peace with Islam!" I tried pointing out that Islam is a religion of 1.1 BILLION men, women AND CHILDREN, and I really hoped that she wasn't suggesting NUKING CHILDREN...

She deleted my comment without acknowledging it. I've since removed her, and all my other school pals, from my friendslist. I'm aware that it sounds extreme to some, but after other instances of hatefulness, as well as disrespect for my own personal boundaries, it was for the best.
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Re: Guns and religion in America
« Reply #4 on: December 08, 2018, 01:43:01 pm »
Being the naive, blissfully ignorant person I am, I simply took gun rights groups at their word when they said they supported the Second Amendment. Never once did I ask "Do these guys support guns for Muslims? Gays? Blacks? Women? Or just for themselves."

...

Thoughts?

This says it all.


The first song sets the wheel in motion / The second is a song of love / The third song tells of Her devotion / The fourth cries joy from the sky above
The fifth song binds our fate to silence / and bids us live each moment well / The sixth unleashes rage and violence / The seventh song has truth to tell
The last song echoes through the ages / to ask its question all night long / And close the circle on these pages / These, the metamythos songs

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Re: Guns and religion in America
« Reply #5 on: December 09, 2018, 04:36:19 pm »
I somehow seem to have messed up when I made this thread, and posted it... somewhere? I'm in the wrong place, my mistake! It was meant to go in political discussions.

Oh, good, then you won't be surprised that I've moved it there, which I'm about to do!

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Re: Guns and religion in America
« Reply #6 on: February 23, 2019, 05:59:46 pm »
I found this article, and reading it really made me think. It's a few months old at this point, but still highly relevant:

https://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2018/06/07/us/muslim-gun-owners-america.html

I'm a gun owner and advocate myself, (though I trend left on most other issues), and I've never considered that some people have a harder time owning guns than others.

Being the naive, blissfully ignorant person I am, I simply took gun rights groups at their word when they said they supported the Second Amendment. Never once did I ask "Do these guys support guns for Muslims? Gays? Blacks? Women? Or just for themselves." Instead I assumed, because they talk about freedom and liberty, and use that rhetoric, that they actually put those ideas into practice.

If the linked article is anything to go by, many of them don't. Apparently, conservative, gun owning, Second Amendment supporting, molon labe shouting Muslims aren't very welcome among conservative, gun owning, molon labe shouting Americans.

Frankly, I'm never going to look at a shooting range the same way again. I mean, I guess I'm just lucky I've never openly expressed my religion at the range! I wonder what would happen if I showed up with a bindi and turban? Yikes. Very off-putting read.

Thoughts?

Indeed; it can be hard to see such hatred in others; sometimes even harder to see similar hatred in our own hearts. Sadly I think an Us Versus Them mentality is an ancient survival mechanism that has been hardwired into the human condition. It take a lot of work to un-do naturally hardwired instincts. Like squishing bugs and other pests; it's just the natural reaction; also based on a survival instinct. Deciding not to kill any form of life, including bugs, is a lot more difficult than most might think. People by and large simply aren't conscious of all the harm they may bring; this shouldn't make us hate them though, or even condemn them in my opinion, because truly, it's not their fault. Learn to let go, and lead by example.

Sorcha

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Re: Guns and religion in America
« Reply #7 on: February 27, 2019, 10:26:30 am »
I found this article, and reading it really made me think. It's a few months old at this point, but still highly relevant:

https://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2018/06/07/us/muslim-gun-owners-america.html

I'm a gun owner and advocate myself, (though I trend left on most other issues), and I've never considered that some people have a harder time owning guns than others.

Being the naive, blissfully ignorant person I am, I simply took gun rights groups at their word when they said they supported the Second Amendment. Never once did I ask "Do these guys support guns for Muslims? Gays? Blacks? Women? Or just for themselves." Instead I assumed, because they talk about freedom and liberty, and use that rhetoric, that they actually put those ideas into practice.

If the linked article is anything to go by, many of them don't. Apparently, conservative, gun owning, Second Amendment supporting, molon labe shouting Muslims aren't very welcome among conservative, gun owning, molon labe shouting Americans.

Frankly, I'm never going to look at a shooting range the same way again. I mean, I guess I'm just lucky I've never openly expressed my religion at the range! I wonder what would happen if I showed up with a bindi and turban? Yikes. Very off-putting read.

Thoughts?
I think it's important to remember that you also have to be able to AFFORD a gun, ammunition, and any classes or training you either want or are required to have. Legal guns are not accessible to poor people (like me). I've wanted to purchase a handgun for years because I enjoy target shooting with them and I was until recently a single woman living alone and liked the idea of additional options for self defense. But guns are hundreds of dollars and ammunition is more, and classes are not cheap.
Additionally, I grew up in a fundamentalist Christian family and fundamentalists are definitely not arguing for gun rights for black people or Muslims or gays. They picture America as a flag-waving rural fundamentalist Christian utopia where all good white Christian men have arsenals to protect themselves, their submissive wives, and their many progeny from the imagined hordes of infidels about to sweep down on them from the cities.

Oh, and personal gun ownership is terrible for domestic violence victims. As a side note. It is pretty much never a good thing when a domestic abuse situation includes guns. So guns are not great for women and children. Mostly just middle class white men.

That being said, I am not against gun ownership per se. My partner owns guns and is very responsible with them. He also isn't violent. I'm lucky in that sense. I just think the fundamentalist 2nd Ammendmenters are terrifying.

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Hariti

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Re: Guns and religion in America
« Reply #8 on: February 27, 2019, 02:56:08 pm »
I think it's important to remember that you also have to be able to AFFORD a gun, ammunition, and any classes or training you either want or are required to have. Legal guns are not accessible to poor people (like me)

That definitely varies by location; 'Legal guns are not accessible to poor people' is probably true in some places, but not in all places.

Kentucky, for instance, falls squarely in the 'not applicable' category. Guns laws in Kentucky are super lax and most people who have guns have them legally. Most people who have guns are also poor people, who own them for hunting and/or for self defense.

I'm sure that places with strict gun laws probably do have income-based inequality in legal gun ownership, but in Kentucky a permit only costs $60, last for 5 years, has no training requirement, and is eligible for anyone over the age of 18 who isn't a convicted felon.

https://www.gunstocarry.com/gun-laws-state/kentucky-gun-laws/#wi-laws2

If $60 seems like a lot, you gotta remember that the cost of living in Kentucky is low; most folks are dirt poor and make minimum wage, but most folks also live on cheap land and don't have to pay very much in the way of utilities. It's also something you only have to pay once every five years, which gives plenty of time to squirrel away the money.

Oh, and personal gun ownership is terrible for domestic violence victims. As a side note. It is pretty much never a good thing when a domestic abuse situation includes guns. So guns are not great for women and children. Mostly just middle class white men.

I agree that guns aren't great for domestic violence situations; however, I do not think it follows that they are therefore bad for women and children. Not all women and children are victims of domestic violence! Plenty of women are single, widowed, or are living with non-abusive partners. Those women benefit from having weapons for self-defense, as do any children living in such households. Guns aren't just for middle-class white men, and there are lots of people who aren't white, male, or middle class who own guns.

I myself only fall into one of those categories (I'm white but not male nor middle-class) and I'm also not straight, not CIS, and not Christian, and yet having a gun benefits me enormously.



« Last Edit: February 27, 2019, 03:02:30 pm by EnderDragonFire »
"The worshippers of the gods go to them; to the manes go the ancestor-worshippers; to the Deities who preside over the elements go their worshippers; My devotees come to Me." ... "Whichever devotee desires to adore whatever such Deity with faith, in all such votaries I make that particular faith unshakable. Endowed with that faith, a votary performs the worship of that particular deity and obtains the fruits thereof, these being granted by Me alone." - Sri Krishna

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Re: Guns and religion in America
« Reply #9 on: February 27, 2019, 06:48:57 pm »
I'm sure that places with strict gun laws probably do have income-based inequality in legal gun ownership, but in Kentucky a permit only costs $60, last for 5 years, has no training requirement, and is eligible for anyone over the age of 18 who isn't a convicted felon.

How much does an actual gun cost, though? Or a pack of ammunition? (I honestly have no idea) Considering the number of people who live paycheck-to-paycheck, a piece of hardware that costs several paychecks would be out of their reach.
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Hariti

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Re: Guns and religion in America
« Reply #10 on: February 27, 2019, 10:17:24 pm »
How much does an actual gun cost, though? Or a pack of ammunition? (I honestly have no idea) Considering the number of people who live paycheck-to-paycheck, a piece of hardware that costs several paychecks would be out of their reach.

Depends on the gun. Old, used firearms go for anywhere between ~100 to approx. ~300 USD, sometimes even less than that for a really heavily used piece. New guns, on the other hand, range from a few hundred to many thousands of dollars.

Much like cars and homes, very few people in Kentucky own new guns. Most folks buy what's cheap and readily available, which mostly means used, low-end shotguns and pistols.

Another thing to consider, though, is that in Kentucky, most families own old guns that they've inherited from their parents and grandparents. Regardless of what a new gun might cost, if you have a gun that's been in your family since the 1950s, or even earlier, you don't need to buy one. In rural Kentucky, finding a household without a firearm is rather exceptional, even in impoverished areas. It's considered a necessity, not a luxury, and lots of folks still hunt small game (squirrels, mostly) for a significant portion of their caloric intake.

I own two firearms; a pistol my aunt bought in the 1970s, which I inherited, and a shotgun that my great-grandfather bought in the 1890s (also a heirloom, obviously). Such a situation is not uncommon in rural Kentucky, and probably not in other areas of rural Appalachia.

As I said before, I'm solidly lower income, and I've lived paycheck-to-paycheck most of my life, though recently my situation has improved somewhat. Even so, I wouldn't be able to pay more than $100 or $200 for a firearm with my current income.

As for ammo, it can be a money sink depending on caliber.

If you own a gun for self-defense, you don't need to buy ammo regularly, but for hunting or going to the range, you go through it pretty fast; a box of .22 with 500 rounds (a common hunting round) is dirt cheap, you can get hundreds of rounds for $30, but a box of .44 mag with 500 rounds will cost you $200 dollars. Of course, 500 rounds lasts a long time, even if you go to the range regularly, so it's not a weakly or even monthly expense.

20 gauge shotguns shells are generally sold in smaller boxes of of 4-5 rounds, usually priced at about $1 per shell, so not very expensive.

Also, in case you were wondering; I don't hunt! Doing so would be rather antithetical to my religious and dietary practices. I know a lot about hunting because most of the men, and quite a few of the women, in my family are hunters, and I grew up around hunting. My guns are used for recreation and self-defense, never for hunting. 



"The worshippers of the gods go to them; to the manes go the ancestor-worshippers; to the Deities who preside over the elements go their worshippers; My devotees come to Me." ... "Whichever devotee desires to adore whatever such Deity with faith, in all such votaries I make that particular faith unshakable. Endowed with that faith, a votary performs the worship of that particular deity and obtains the fruits thereof, these being granted by Me alone." - Sri Krishna

Hariti

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Re: Guns and religion in America
« Reply #11 on: February 27, 2019, 10:22:15 pm »
Mostly just middle class white men.

I feel like I should clarify that I do agree that there are lots of folks who want guns to only be for middle-class white men. That's what prompted me to make the OP in the first place!

I find the bigoted, fundamentalist, "2nd-amendment" types just as disturbing as you do; in my opinion, the right to bear arms should be for everyone equally, not just the privileged majority.

I would argue that nobody needs guns more than marginalized people and minorities; after all, they're the ones most likely to face oppression, hate crimes, and violence, and should be allowed to protect themselves.
"The worshippers of the gods go to them; to the manes go the ancestor-worshippers; to the Deities who preside over the elements go their worshippers; My devotees come to Me." ... "Whichever devotee desires to adore whatever such Deity with faith, in all such votaries I make that particular faith unshakable. Endowed with that faith, a votary performs the worship of that particular deity and obtains the fruits thereof, these being granted by Me alone." - Sri Krishna

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Re: Guns and religion in America
« Reply #12 on: February 27, 2019, 10:45:35 pm »
Depends on the gun. Old, used firearms go for anywhere between ~100 to approx. ~300 USD, sometimes even less than that for a really heavily used piece. New guns, on the other hand, range from a few hundred to many thousands of dollars.

Much like cars and homes, very few people in Kentucky own new guns. Most folks buy what's cheap and readily available, which mostly means used, low-end shotguns and pistols.

Another thing to consider, though, is that in Kentucky, most families own old guns that they've inherited from their parents and grandparents. Regardless of what a new gun might cost, if you have a gun that's been in your family since the 1950s, or even earlier, you don't need to buy one. In rural Kentucky, finding a household without a firearm is rather exceptional, even in impoverished areas. It's considered a necessity, not a luxury, and lots of folks still hunt small game (squirrels, mostly) for a significant portion of their caloric intake.

I own two firearms; a pistol my aunt bought in the 1970s, which I inherited, and a shotgun that my great-grandfather bought in the 1890s (also a heirloom, obviously). Such a situation is not uncommon in rural Kentucky, and probably not in other areas of rural Appalachia.

As I said before, I'm solidly lower income, and I've lived paycheck-to-paycheck most of my life, though recently my situation has improved somewhat. Even so, I wouldn't be able to pay more than $100 or $200 for a firearm with my current income.

As for ammo, it can be a money sink depending on caliber.

If you own a gun for self-defense, you don't need to buy ammo regularly, but for hunting or going to the range, you go through it pretty fast; a box of .22 with 500 rounds (a common hunting round) is dirt cheap, you can get hundreds of rounds for $30, but a box of .44 mag with 500 rounds will cost you $200 dollars. Of course, 500 rounds lasts a long time, even if you go to the range regularly, so it's not a weakly or even monthly expense.

20 gauge shotguns shells are generally sold in smaller boxes of of 4-5 rounds, usually priced at about $1 per shell, so not very expensive.

Also, in case you were wondering; I don't hunt! Doing so would be rather antithetical to my religious and dietary practices. I know a lot about hunting because most of the men, and quite a few of the women, in my family are hunters, and I grew up around hunting. My guns are used for recreation and self-defense, never for hunting.
Most people do not, statistically, benefit from gun ownership for the purpose of protection. In fact, gun ownership statistically makes you less safe, not more: https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.vox.com/platform/amp/policy-and-politics/2018/3/23/17155596/gun-ownership-polls-safety-violence Increased gun ownership is linked to increased crime: https://www.scientificamerican.com/article/more-guns-do-not-stop-more-crimes-evidence-shows/ Gun ownership makes domestic violence a full five times more likely to turn deadly; it does not make women more safe: https://www.usatoday.com/story/news/politics/2018/02/27/advocates-see-opening-tougher-gun-control-laws-those-guilty-domestic-violence/361226002/ Now, of course, there are cases when having a gun saves someone's life, but statistically, it's unlikely. Unfortunately.



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Re: Guns and religion in America
« Reply #13 on: February 28, 2019, 12:42:28 am »
How much does an actual gun cost, though? Or a pack of ammunition? (I honestly have no idea) Considering the number of people who live paycheck-to-paycheck, a piece of hardware that costs several paychecks would be out of their reach.

That's gonna depend.

I've spent as little as $150 and as much as $850 for my handguns. The cheapest one is uglier'n sin, but it works well, and fired 500 rounds without a jam.
Rifles will vary as much. My dream longarm is a Henry repeater, it retails for about a grand.

Far as ammo goes. A box of 50 9mm rounds will go for as little as $12.99 at my local shoppe.  50 rounds of .45 cal are as low as $20. Hollow point rounds are usually a little more expensive.

Classes can be anywhere from $100 to $300, depending. Might not cover ammo & range fees.



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Re: Guns and religion in America
« Reply #14 on: February 28, 2019, 04:32:28 am »
In fact, gun ownership statistically makes you less safe,

Those statistics don't account for other variables; they show a correlation, but without context it's meaningless.

Certain demographics tend to own guns; certain demographics also tend to experience more violent crime. That doesn't mean owning a gun causes you to experience violent crime. That's like saying that eating icecream causes heatstroke, or that the decrease in ocean piracy causes climate change. Those things correlate as well, but correlation is not causation and causation should never be assumed from correlation alone.

Rather, before you assume causation, you should always have a hypothetical causal mechanism. For the above cases of pirates and ice-cream, there is no logical way for the correlated events to have a causal relationship...

In my opinion, the same is true for gun ownership and being a victim of violent crime; if you own a gun, but keep it locked up and never use it, and nobody knows about it, there's no logical way that could make you a target for violent crime that wouldn't have otherwise affected you.

It's only once other variables come into play (bragging about your expensive guns in public, for example) that a possible causal element is introduced.


I just don't see a compelling reason, without much more through research that properly eliminates variables and establishes a probably causal factor, to assume that the correlation between violent crimes reflects causation. 

Rather, I think the two things correlate because they share a common cause; social inequality. The same way icecream and heatstroke have a common cause; summer. Doesn't mean they cause one another.
"The worshippers of the gods go to them; to the manes go the ancestor-worshippers; to the Deities who preside over the elements go their worshippers; My devotees come to Me." ... "Whichever devotee desires to adore whatever such Deity with faith, in all such votaries I make that particular faith unshakable. Endowed with that faith, a votary performs the worship of that particular deity and obtains the fruits thereof, these being granted by Me alone." - Sri Krishna

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