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Author Topic: Gingrich: "Gay Marriage is Paganism"  (Read 5924 times)

sailor

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Re: Gingrich: "Gay Marriage is Paganism"
« Reply #30 on: January 28, 2012, 12:36:58 pm »
Quote from: treekisser;40620
This is utterly unrelated to my point. I am saying Sinner A should not be condemning Sinner B so loudly because he, too, has sinned. The fact that Sinner A is theoretically welcome back in the fold and Sinner B is not is irrelevant. At that point in time, they are both sinners.

 
Sinner B is welcome back as soon as they say it's a sin. Sinner A is asking for Sinner B to admit it's a sin (or at least bad) rather than for Sinner B to revel in the sin of adultery and say it's acceptable. (noting that polygamy / open relationships is a different kettle of fish since there is no breaking of trust)

Darkhawk

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Re: Gingrich: "Gay Marriage is Paganism"
« Reply #31 on: January 28, 2012, 01:30:10 pm »
Quote from: treekisser;40620
This is utterly unrelated to my point. I am saying Sinner A should not be condemning Sinner B so loudly because he, too, has sinned. The fact that Sinner A is theoretically welcome back in the fold and Sinner B is not is irrelevant. At that point in time, they are both sinners.

 
But in the context that A is operating in, there is a difference between a sinner who admits it (and thus validates and continues to operate within the given social context) and a sinner who denies that it is a sin (and thus acts in a manner that undermines the social context).  The point is upholding the Rules, and there are approaches to law-breaking that acknowledge the Rules, and those that do not.

Someone who doesn't consider that particular structure of Law relevant - who prefers, instead, to evaluate "sin" by "does it do harm", say - will just completely miss the point that the community is not defined as those people who obey the Rules, but those people who admit to the supremacy of the Rules.
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RandallS

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Re: Gingrich: "Gay Marriage is Paganism"
« Reply #32 on: January 28, 2012, 06:26:02 pm »
Quote from: Darkhawk;40606
Which is how you get situations where serial cheaters are lauded for promoting family values and it's better to abuse queer people than consider it okay to be gay.  Because nobody can succeed at the valueset by definition, it becomes about how hard you push the valueset, not whether or not you live it.

Somehow, I think Jesus would disagree with them.
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Darkhawk

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Re: Gingrich: "Gay Marriage is Paganism"
« Reply #33 on: January 28, 2012, 10:17:07 pm »
Quote from: RandallS;40689
Somehow, I think Jesus would disagree with them.

 
Unfortunately, that bit doesn't actually seem to have made it into the Rules in many cases.
as the water grinds the stone
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we shine like stars    - Covenant, "Bullet"

Gore

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Re: Gingrich: "Gay Marriage is Paganism"
« Reply #34 on: January 28, 2012, 11:23:16 pm »
Quote from: Melamphoros;40346
He said that the Bible stresses that marriage should be between a man and a woman.  I wonder where in ancient Non-JCI literature he found something that allowed same-sex-marriage.

 
Ah, the ignorance. The religious ignorance of people piss me off. Especially the ignorance of people that are or have been apart of the running of our American government. It is not reassuring to know my own people vote for these asshats. :mad:

treekisser

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Re: Gingrich: "Gay Marriage is Paganism"
« Reply #35 on: January 29, 2012, 04:23:33 am »
Quote from: Darkhawk;40631
Someone who doesn't consider that particular structure of Law relevant - who prefers, instead, to evaluate "sin" by "does it do harm", say - will just completely miss the point that the community is not defined as those people who obey the Rules, but those people who admit to the supremacy of the Rules.

I understand the distinction you and sailor are making. I just refuse to accept it as legitimate. Firstly, because I don't see bible-thumpers lining up to say Why aren't you accepting the Biblical grundnorm of our structure of Law and acknowledging that it condemns your lifestyle as deviant, I see them jump to, STOP IT YOU HELL-BOUND MUTHA. Sinner A should be more precise in his frothing at the mouth and actually put the distinction you're drawing in words.

Secondly, because the Rules themselves include provisions for Sinner A to pipe down in the form of various verses about not judging others. Not sure how far they apply to sinners who don't acknowledge the Rules, but even so, I don't see as many verses justifying the relentless haranguing of nonbelieving sinners. So even if the community, as you say, is defined by people accepting the supremacy of the Rules - what part of those Rules tells them to be so damn hypocritically loud?

Edit: just realised you might be referring to unwritten Rules rather than biblical verses and exegesis, in which case strike out most of what I say and insert "that's called making things up."
« Last Edit: January 29, 2012, 04:26:04 am by treekisser »

RandallS

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Re: Gingrich: "Gay Marriage is Paganism"
« Reply #36 on: January 29, 2012, 08:32:12 am »
Quote from: Darkhawk;40728
Unfortunately, that bit doesn't actually seem to have made it into the Rules in many cases.

Or they just ignore where Jesus says things about not picking the speck out of your neighbor's eye when there is a log in your own, etc. I've found that Fundamentalist Christians are often far more concerned about what the Old Testament or Paul says than they are about what Jesus said.
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Darkhawk

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Re: Gingrich: "Gay Marriage is Paganism"
« Reply #37 on: January 29, 2012, 01:27:24 pm »
Quote from: treekisser;40753
I understand the distinction you and sailor are making. I just refuse to accept it as legitimate.

 
Whether or not you accept it as legitimate is completely irrelevant to the situation and to the point I'm trying to make.

I'm trying to point out what appears to be the actual system under which some people are operating.  No amount of saying "But that's stupid!" will change that there are people who use that system; in fact, saying "But that's stupid!" mostly has the effect of driving people deeper into the system because the system also contains assumptions that they will be persecuted and reviled for their beliefs.

If you don't care about understanding how people appear to be thinking, you have not got a shot in hell of being able to communicate with them ... or change their minds.
as the water grinds the stone
we rise and fall
as our ashes turn to dust
we shine like stars    - Covenant, "Bullet"

Inca

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Re: Gingrich: "Gay Marriage is Paganism"
« Reply #38 on: January 29, 2012, 01:53:16 pm »
Quote from: Darkhawk;40787
If you don't care about understanding how people appear to be thinking, you have not got a shot in hell of being able to communicate with them ... or change their minds.

 
On the other hand, communicating with people that are so hypocritical and opportunistic and, well, far out, may lend undue reasonability to their view.

You can't change their minds. What is changed however is the mind of average people, and they see that those outrageous views are accepted as legitimate. You see it in threads about those subjects right here: homosexuality, abortion etc.

And it is shifting the mean: one says 50, another 100, you settle for 75. A month later one says 75, but the other still is set at 100, and suddenly the mean is 82.5

At some point or other it would be better to counter with a bit stronger counterarguments and don't try to communicate with Gingrich and the like. Communicate with the normal people - and call those candidates out on the hypocritical behavior, the non-christian attitude, the framing and the lies. Time and time again.

mandrina

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Re: Gingrich: "Gay Marriage is Paganism"
« Reply #39 on: January 29, 2012, 02:39:54 pm »
Quote from: Inca;40789


And it is shifting the mean: one says 50, another 100, you settle for 75. A month later one says 75, but the other still is set at 100, and suddenly the mean is 82.5

At some point or other it would be better to counter with a bit stronger counterarguments and don't try to communicate with Gingrich and the like. Communicate with the normal people - and call those candidates out on the hypocritical behavior, the non-christian attitude, the framing and the lies. Time and time again.

 
this
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Owl

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Re: Gingrich: "Gay Marriage is Paganism"
« Reply #40 on: January 29, 2012, 04:11:58 pm »
Quote from: Inca;40789


At some point or other it would be better to counter with a bit stronger counterarguments and don't try to communicate with Gingrich and the like. Communicate with the normal people - and call those candidates out on the hypocritical behavior, the non-christian attitude, the framing and the lies. Time and time again.

 
Absolutely
Reality is that which, when you stop believing in it, doesn't go away.

mandrina

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Re: Gingrich: "Gay Marriage is Paganism"
« Reply #41 on: January 29, 2012, 08:09:42 pm »
Quote from: Inca;40789
On the other hand, communicating with people that are so hypocritical and opportunistic and, well, far out, may lend undue reasonability to their view.

You can't change their minds. What is changed however is the mind of average people, and they see that those outrageous views are accepted as legitimate. You see it in threads about those subjects right here: homosexuality, abortion etc.

And it is shifting the mean: one says 50, another 100, you settle for 75. A month later one says 75, but the other still is set at 100, and suddenly the mean is 82.5

At some point or other it would be better to counter with a bit stronger counterarguments and don't try to communicate with Gingrich and the like. Communicate with the normal people - and call those candidates out on the hypocritical behavior, the non-christian attitude, the framing and the lies. Time and time again.


a long time ago, when I was still in the methodist church, me and a friend had a discussion with the pastor about how the methodist church deals with pastors who get divorced.  Unlike the local baptist church which tolerated blatent adultery on the part of the pastor so long as his wife stayed with him, but fired him the moment she filed for divorce, the methodist pastor who gets his first divorce gets to keep his job, anyone can make a mistake, the second one he gets a 3 month vacation to go with counseling, and with the third, he loses his job as pastor because he has no control over his life and can't be a role model for anyone. I don't know how they deal with adultery, we didn't discuss that, but I would hope they wouldn't tolerate blatant adultery like the fundamentalist baptist church did.   Newt should pay attention here.  He can't be a role model for anyone either and has no business standing up there and acting like he can.  I don't demand perfection, but the second adultery and divorce was a good hint that he couldn't be a good role model there.  If someone is going to insist that i live by his rules, he'd better be able to do it too.
« Last Edit: January 29, 2012, 08:10:50 pm by mandrina »
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Dark Midnight

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Re: Gingrich: "Gay Marriage is Paganism"
« Reply #42 on: January 30, 2012, 02:58:44 am »
Quote from: mandrina;40818
Newt should pay attention here.  He can't be a role model for anyone either and has no business standing up there and acting like he can.  I don't demand perfection, but the second adultery and divorce was a good hint that he couldn't be a good role model there.  If someone is going to insist that i live by his rules, he'd better be able to do it too.

 
Sounds perfectly fair to me
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treekisser

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Re: Gingrich: "Gay Marriage is Paganism"
« Reply #43 on: January 30, 2012, 09:55:47 am »
Quote from: Darkhawk;40787
Whether or not you accept it as legitimate is completely irrelevant to the situation and to the point I'm trying to make.

 
You appear to be under a misconception as to the nature of my original comment.

If you actually read it, I use the word shouldn't.

I am not diagnosing the way people's minds work. I was venting on the way I think it should be.

Darkhawk

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Re: Gingrich: "Gay Marriage is Paganism"
« Reply #44 on: January 30, 2012, 09:58:31 am »
Quote from: treekisser;40875
You appear to be under a misconception as to the nature of my original comment.

If you actually read it, I use the word shouldn't.

I am not diagnosing the way people's minds work. I was venting on the way I think it should be.

 
Eh.  I think that saying "They shouldn't be that way!" is a big problem no matter which "side" is doing it.
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