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Author Topic: Ferguson: The Political Discussion  (Read 24404 times)

Gilbride

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Re: Ferguson
« Reply #180 on: December 07, 2014, 12:37:41 pm »
Quote from: sailor;166915
Getting the state AG to take cases should be a relatively easy one since doesn't NY have a Democrat as governor?


I don't see the connection. Since when have Democratic politicians been tougher on police brutality and corruption?

Altair

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Re: Ferguson
« Reply #181 on: December 07, 2014, 05:03:32 pm »
Quote from: sailor;166915

The Boston Globe as had an article by Harry Silvergate, former board member of hte ACLU, calling for more grand juries like Ferguson.  It puts the power into the hands of the citizens rather than the elected / appointed DAs.


Then Harry Silvergate is an idiot. Anyone who has ever served on a grand jury--I have--will tell you that the grand jury system is a wholly owned subsidiary of the prosecutor's office, completely under their control. (As somebody put it on the local TV news here the other day, "The prosecutor could get a grand jury to indict a ham sandwich.")

And it's infuriating to see it used as a smokescreen as it was in Ferguson, with that guy on TV (the prosecutor? the county sheriff?) after the grand jury refused to indict wrapping himself in that refusal, telling us how "only the grand jury saw every piece of evidence and heard from every witness"...as if that made the conclusions of proceedings that were **completely and utterly controlled by a prosecutor who didn't want to prosecute** into some sort of pristine stamp of a clean bill of health.

It's shit like that, repeated over and over and over, that makes us black people very, very angry.
The first song sets the wheel in motion / The second is a song of love / The third song tells of Her devotion / The fourth cries joy from the sky above
The fifth song binds our fate to silence / and bids us live each moment well / The sixth unleashes rage and violence / The seventh song has truth to tell
The last song echoes through the ages / to ask its question all night long / And close the circle on these pages / These, the metamythos songs

sailor

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Re: Ferguson
« Reply #182 on: December 07, 2014, 08:35:42 pm »
Quote from: Gilbride;166923
I don't see the connection. Since when have Democratic politicians been tougher on police brutality and corruption?

 
When the assertion is made that nothing will happen because the House is controlled by the GOP.  If the problem is going to be the GOP, anything that can be done without GOP input or support then the Democrats should be able to fix it in minutes.

sailor

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Re: Ferguson
« Reply #183 on: December 07, 2014, 08:43:00 pm »
Quote from: Altair;166938
Then Harry Silvergate is an idiot. Anyone who has ever served on a grand jury--I have--will tell you that the grand jury system is a wholly owned subsidiary of the prosecutor's office, completely under their control. (As somebody put it on the local TV news here the other day, "The prosecutor could get a grand jury to indict a ham sandwich.")

And it's infuriating to see it used as a smokescreen as it was in Ferguson, with that guy on TV (the prosecutor? the county sheriff?) after the grand jury refused to indict wrapping himself in that refusal, telling us how "only the grand jury saw every piece of evidence and heard from every witness"...as if that made the conclusions of proceedings that were **completely and utterly controlled by a prosecutor who didn't want to prosecute** into some sort of pristine stamp of a clean bill of health.

It's shit like that, repeated over and over and over, that makes us black people very, very angry.

 
Oh well, it seems pretty obvious you didn't read the article (although I didnt provide a link).  I guess we can keep sending more young black men to jail over minor offenses.

Altair

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Re: Ferguson
« Reply #184 on: December 07, 2014, 11:06:08 pm »
Quote from: sailor;166966
When the assertion is made that nothing will happen because the House is controlled by the GOP.  If the problem is going to be the GOP, anything that can be done without GOP input or support then the Democrats should be able to fix it in minutes.


The problem *is* the GOP. Because you can't dispute that, you try to shift the debate, as if I or anyone else has said that the GOP is the *only* problem. Which, of course, has never been said. By anyone.

The fact remains: Reform of the justice system in any meaningful way that alleviates the pervasive effects of racism won't happen in any legislature, Federal or state, where the Republicans have control.

The Democrats may not be perfect, but at least there's a hope of reform. It may be simply because Democrats know the black vote is an essential part of their base, but there it is.
The first song sets the wheel in motion / The second is a song of love / The third song tells of Her devotion / The fourth cries joy from the sky above
The fifth song binds our fate to silence / and bids us live each moment well / The sixth unleashes rage and violence / The seventh song has truth to tell
The last song echoes through the ages / to ask its question all night long / And close the circle on these pages / These, the metamythos songs

Altair

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Re: Ferguson
« Reply #185 on: December 07, 2014, 11:09:28 pm »
Quote from: sailor;166968
Oh well, it seems pretty obvious you didn't read the article (although I didnt provide a link).  I guess we can keep sending more young black men to jail over minor offenses.

 
Then provide a link to the article, and if I think it's worth my time to read it and respond, I'll tackle your latest random inflammatory assertion.
The first song sets the wheel in motion / The second is a song of love / The third song tells of Her devotion / The fourth cries joy from the sky above
The fifth song binds our fate to silence / and bids us live each moment well / The sixth unleashes rage and violence / The seventh song has truth to tell
The last song echoes through the ages / to ask its question all night long / And close the circle on these pages / These, the metamythos songs

sailor

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Re: Ferguson
« Reply #186 on: December 08, 2014, 10:24:13 am »
Quote from: Altair;166982
Then provide a link to the article, and if I think it's worth my time to read it and respond, I'll tackle your latest random inflammatory assertion.

 
I found it over at Volkh with enough interesting commentary to read the actual article.
http://www.washingtonpost.com/news/volokh-conspiracy/wp/2014/12/06/harvey-silverglate-on-fergusons-unexpected-lessons/

And the Boston Glob article:
http://www.bostonglobe.com/opinion/2014/11/26/ferguson-unexpected-lesson-over-grand-juries/7PhNikOvwGG6NfoQiHr9iO/story.html

Also of general interest is there was an audio tape of the events.
http://www.washingtonpost.com/news/volokh-conspiracy/wp/2014/12/08/the-overlooked-audiotape-of-the-michael-brown-shooting/

sailor

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Re: Ferguson
« Reply #187 on: December 08, 2014, 10:40:37 am »
Quote from: Altair;166980
The problem *is* the GOP. Because you can't dispute that, you try to shift the debate, as if I or anyone else has said that the GOP is the *only* problem. Which, of course, has never been said. By anyone.

The fact remains: Reform of the justice system in any meaningful way that alleviates the pervasive effects of racism won't happen in any legislature, Federal or state, where the Republicans have control.

The Democrats may not be perfect, but at least there's a hope of reform. It may be simply because Democrats know the black vote is an essential part of their base, but there it is.

 
Actually I do dispute that the GOP is the problem, or more accurately that your continued assertion that any reform in any legislature that the GOP controls will be stopped.  I'm parsing that as the GOP is the only or at least the biggest problem in your view.  Hence, any legislature, like California or Massachusetts, which is totally controlled by the Democrats, should be an easy place to get reform done.

You want to assert that the GOP will block it for some reason plus a lot of Democrats will block it as a sop to the unions, or at least police unions, fine.  That's not how I'm seeing your statement.

As for you last paragraph, that ties into my snark about Holder.  He "knows" that Blacks won't vote for the GOP, so they don't matter as much when it comes to elections.

Oh, not sure I can dig it up again, but saw one opinion piece that the intenstity of the Ferguson coverage / protests is a fight within the Democrat party between Sharpton and the urban Blacks (or urban poor) and the liberal (white) gentry of the Wall St, Hollywood and Silicon Valley side.

sailor

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Re: Ferguson
« Reply #188 on: December 14, 2014, 10:42:38 am »
Quote from: Altair;166980
The problem *is* the GOP. Because you can't dispute that, you try to shift the debate, as if I or anyone else has said that the GOP is the *only* problem. Which, of course, has never been said. By anyone.

The fact remains: Reform of the justice system in any meaningful way that alleviates the pervasive effects of racism won't happen in any legislature, Federal or state, where the Republicans have control.

The Democrats may not be perfect, but at least there's a hope of reform. It may be simply because Democrats know the black vote is an essential part of their base, but there it is.

 
You owe me some beer

Quote
Any department receiving federal funds will have to report to the DOJ on a quarterly basis “the death of any person who is detained, under arrest, or is in the process of being arrested, is en route to be incarcerated, or is incarcerated at a municipal or county jail, State prison, State-run boot camp prison, boot camp prison that is contracted out by the State, any State or local contract facility, or other local or State correctional facility (including any juvenile facility).”



It's not a requirement for removing local prosecutors from cases of people killed by police, but it will ensure that all such deaths are reported to the Feds.  From other stories, reporting of "justified" by local authorities were Not required to be report so the totals were never consistent.

The news link:
http://pjmedia.com/tatler/2014/12/11/senate-passes-house-bill-to-require-police-departments-report-in-custody-deaths-to-doj/

Now you were saying about the GOP?

Altair

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Re: Ferguson
« Reply #189 on: December 14, 2014, 11:09:20 pm »
Quote from: sailor;167385
You owe me some beer



You're right. I owe you some beer.
The first song sets the wheel in motion / The second is a song of love / The third song tells of Her devotion / The fourth cries joy from the sky above
The fifth song binds our fate to silence / and bids us live each moment well / The sixth unleashes rage and violence / The seventh song has truth to tell
The last song echoes through the ages / to ask its question all night long / And close the circle on these pages / These, the metamythos songs

Nyktipolos

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Re: Ferguson
« Reply #190 on: December 22, 2014, 05:00:58 pm »
Quote from: Altair;167417

An important update on the grand jury trial of Darren Wilson:

Quote
A Startling Admission By The Ferguson Prosecutor Could Restart The Case Against Darren Wilson

Ferguson prosecutor Bob McCulloch admitted that he presented evidence he knew to be false to the grand jury considering charges against Darren Wilson. In an interview with radio station KTRS on Friday, McCulloch said that he decided to present witnesses that were “clearly not telling the truth” to the grand jury. Specifically, McCulloch acknowledged he permitted a woman who “clearly wasn’t present when this occurred” to testify as an eyewitness to the grand jury for several hours. The woman, Sandra McElroy, testified that Michael Brown charged at Wilson “like a football player, head down,” supporting Wilson’s claim that he killed Brown in self-defense.

Source: http://thinkprogress.org/justice/2014/12/21/3606084/how-a-startling-admission-from-the-ferguson-prosector-could-restart-the-case-against-darren-wilson/
« Last Edit: December 22, 2014, 05:01:53 pm by Nyktipolos »
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Altair

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Re: Ferguson
« Reply #191 on: December 22, 2014, 07:21:02 pm »
Quote from: Nyktipolos;168042
An important update on the grand jury trial of Darren Wilson:



Source: http://thinkprogress.org/justice/2014/12/21/3606084/how-a-startling-admission-from-the-ferguson-prosector-could-restart-the-case-against-darren-wilson/

 
Unfortunately, the deranged person who shot two NYPD officers execution style, on top of taking two New Yorkers' lives, has knocked the whole racial justice movement on its heels, at least here in NYC--just when we seemed to be making some headway.

Hopefully in Ferguson, they can still make reforms happen.
The first song sets the wheel in motion / The second is a song of love / The third song tells of Her devotion / The fourth cries joy from the sky above
The fifth song binds our fate to silence / and bids us live each moment well / The sixth unleashes rage and violence / The seventh song has truth to tell
The last song echoes through the ages / to ask its question all night long / And close the circle on these pages / These, the metamythos songs

mandrina

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Re: Ferguson
« Reply #192 on: December 22, 2014, 08:00:54 pm »
Quote from: Altair;168049
Unfortunately, the deranged person who shot two NYPD officers execution style, on top of taking two New Yorkers' lives, has knocked the whole racial justice movement on its heels, at least here in NYC--just when we seemed to be making some headway.

Hopefully in Ferguson, they can still make reforms happen.

 

Here goes.

I don't have to choose.  I can condemn the guy in new york for killing the police officers, and recognize that this is actually not a racial killing, this is an idiot who killed two police officers because they were police officers, and had he not killed himself, he would have been brought to justice.  

I can still, at the same time, accept that black men are more likely to get killed by the police than white men, regardless of what they do, and insist that the police work on this situation, and if needed, put on trial the policemen who do this.  It's not an either or situation, it's a both need to be dealt with.
Katrina

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Altair

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Re: Ferguson
« Reply #193 on: December 22, 2014, 08:49:37 pm »
Quote from: mandrina;168053
Here goes.

I don't have to choose.  I can condemn the guy in new york for killing the police officers, and recognize that this is actually not a racial killing, this is an idiot who killed two police officers because they were police officers, and had he not killed himself, he would have been brought to justice.  

I can still, at the same time, accept that black men are more likely to get killed by the police than white men, regardless of what they do, and insist that the police work on this situation, and if needed, put on trial the policemen who do this.  It's not an either or situation, it's a both need to be dealt with.


I don't disagree in the slightest. But the shift in the political climate and in public perceptions as a result of the murders of the two cops makes the push for police reforms, which was growing quite strong, a much more difficult course to navigate. Before this past weekend, we had momentum and the wind at our backs; now we're becalmed.

For example, NYC mayor Bill De Blasio, who has spoken sympathetically of the peaceful protests, has called for a moratorium on all protests around the issue of police violence. And much as it burns me to cede what little leverage the protests have given us to force changes, I have to agree with him.
The first song sets the wheel in motion / The second is a song of love / The third song tells of Her devotion / The fourth cries joy from the sky above
The fifth song binds our fate to silence / and bids us live each moment well / The sixth unleashes rage and violence / The seventh song has truth to tell
The last song echoes through the ages / to ask its question all night long / And close the circle on these pages / These, the metamythos songs

mandrina

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Re: Ferguson
« Reply #194 on: December 23, 2014, 02:04:58 am »
Quote from: Altair;168058
I don't disagree in the slightest. But the shift in the political climate and in public perceptions as a result of the murders of the two cops makes the push for police reforms, which was growing quite strong, a much more difficult course to navigate. Before this past weekend, we had momentum and the wind at our backs; now we're becalmed.

For example, NYC mayor Bill De Blasio, who has spoken sympathetically of the peaceful protests, has called for a moratorium on all protests around the issue of police violence. And much as it burns me to cede what little leverage the protests have given us to force changes, I have to agree with him.


Which means at least a few more are going to die who otherwise should have just been arrested.   THat would make a good conspiracy theory (just cause I think that way and don't believe it is true in a second).  Kill two of our own to turn the public against the protestors.  I repeat, it would make a good conspiracy theory, but I don't believe it for a second.
Katrina

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