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Author Topic: Ferguson: The Political Discussion  (Read 24386 times)

Redfaery

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Re: Ferguson
« Reply #15 on: November 26, 2014, 01:31:04 pm »
Quote from: Chabas;166163
I'm pretty sure I can speak for Veggie in that neither of us WANT violent resistance. What I WANT is change. Hell, what the black community in the US NEEDS is change. And I cannot recall a time when I've been aware of US news when there weren't these stories appearing, followed by peaceful protests, endless discussions of problems with the system, and no change.

Ma'at isn't something I want, it's something I think is *needed* to keep the world functioning. And from that perspective, I CANNOT justify prioritizing the safety of bystanders, which might at least lead to change, over the lives of the boys and men who will end up like Mike Brown or Trayvon Martin over the coming years if we do nothing. Because this *isn't* either the victims of the protests or peace. Peaceful protest has been leading nowhere for years, and its price is the life of young black man after young black man. I suggest you start valuing those lives as highly as those victims of the riots you keep speaking so highly of - none of whom, btw, have died in the last nights, to the very best of my knowledge.

To again quote reverend King: True peace is not merely the absence of tension, it is the presence of justice. Regardless of how these protests proceed: this is not peace.
 
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That makes a great deal of sense to me. Thank you for clarifying. I think the root of our disagreement comes from our perspectives on how society is changing.

I don't see the current situation in Ferguson as indicating a chance for racial justice. I see it as simply the bursting open of another one of the many festering abscesses of injustice on America's body as a society. Like an abscess, the rupture is ugly and leaves a gaping wound. When you burst an abscess, it can heal. But that doesn't mean you'll never get an abscess again. America will always have abscesses. I say that as a queer non-binary neurodivergent female.
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Re: Ferguson
« Reply #16 on: November 26, 2014, 01:35:51 pm »
Quote from: Darkhawk;166164
This Nonviolent Stuff'll Get You Killed: How Guns Made the Civil Rights Movement Possible may be relevant.

(I believe I learned about this book from Chauncey DeVega, to give proper credit.)

Now that's interesting.  I might have been said, once or twice, that an armed populace is the surest defence against tyranny.  

I wonder if the good Dr King, were he alive today, would be labeled an 'ammosexual' by someone who thought they were being clever.  Or, if it would be said he were 'overcompensating' for something.

EDIT: On the other hand, if 'the people' are armed, how many more would look upon police taking lethal action as "justified"?
« Last Edit: November 26, 2014, 01:38:21 pm by MadZealot »
Oh, is it time again to say "Fuck Trump gently in the ear with a swarm of pissed-off hornets?"?

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Chabas

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Re: Ferguson
« Reply #17 on: November 26, 2014, 05:08:43 pm »
Quote from: Redfaery;166169
That makes a great deal of sense to me. Thank you for clarifying. I think the root of our disagreement comes from our perspectives on how society is changing.

I don't see the current situation in Ferguson as indicating a chance for racial justice. I see it as simply the bursting open of another one of the many festering abscesses of injustice on America's body as a society. Like an abscess, the rupture is ugly and leaves a gaping wound. When you burst an abscess, it can heal. But that doesn't mean you'll never get an abscess again. America will always have abscesses. I say that as a queer non-binary neurodivergent female.

 
Well, yes. But you need to burst that abscess and clean it out properly for it to even begin to heal. And that requires cutting, much like how a tumor needs to be cut out, and possibly treated with chemo that can harm healthy cells as well as the cancerous ones. Doesn't mean your doctor is advocating killing healthy cells - means that the doc considers the harm of not doing the chemo and risking those healthy cells greater than the harm of not risking that. And that's where I'm coming from with this.

--Chabas

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Re: Ferguson
« Reply #18 on: November 26, 2014, 10:32:06 pm »
Quote from: MadZealot;166170
Now that's interesting.  I might have been said, once or twice, that an armed populace is the surest defence against tyranny.  

I wonder if the good Dr King, were he alive today, would be labeled an 'ammosexual' by someone who thought they were being clever.  Or, if it would be said he were 'overcompensating' for something.

Well, at the same time, a firearm for self-defense wasn't enough to save him in the end, did it?  Always someone with a longer-ranged gun.

Quote
EDIT: On the other hand, if 'the people' are armed, how many more would look upon police taking lethal action as "justified"?

Twelve year old with a BB gun died this past week.  Shot by cop.  Black, of course.  And there was the guy in the Walmart, too.  And....


Meanwhile, Ta-nehisi Coates weighs in on the topic, among other things:  http://www.theatlantic.com/politics/archive/2014/11/barack-obama-ferguson-and-the-evidence-of-things-unsaid/383212/
« Last Edit: November 26, 2014, 10:32:40 pm by Darkhawk »
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Re: Ferguson
« Reply #19 on: November 27, 2014, 08:10:30 am »
Quote from: veggiewolf;166162
The police seem to be shooting people anyway, though.  At what point do people get to determine for themselves what needs to be done?  There are a lot of people going on about violence not being the answer without being in the line of fire, and the people who get to decide what should and will happen are the people there on the ground.

On the other hand the people saying violence is not the answer do not seem to be doing anything to stop the things like racial profiling or reign in violent police officers. If the people in power don't want violence used, then the people in power need to solve the problem so violence is not needed. If people not in power don't want to see violence used they need to press the people in power to do something effective to end the actual problem and end it now.
« Last Edit: November 27, 2014, 08:12:01 am by RandallS »
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veggiewolf

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Re: Ferguson
« Reply #20 on: November 27, 2014, 10:19:43 am »
Quote from: RandallS;166211
On the other hand the people saying violence is not the answer do not seem to be doing anything to stop the things like racial profiling or reign in violent police officers. If the people in power don't want violence used, then the people in power need to solve the problem so violence is not needed. If people not in power don't want to see violence used they need to press the people in power to do something effective to end the actual problem and end it now.

Bingo.   I completely agree.
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sailor

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Re: Ferguson
« Reply #21 on: November 27, 2014, 10:28:44 am »
Quote from: RandallS;166211
On the other hand the people saying violence is not the answer do not seem to be doing anything to stop the things like racial profiling or reign in violent police officers. If the people in power don't want violence used, then the people in power need to solve the problem so violence is not needed. If people not in power don't want to see violence used they need to press the people in power to do something effective to end the actual problem and end it now.

 
Well, Obama could propose Federal funding to get more body cams for police officers, especially in areas with lots of poor minority residents.  There was one town in CA that started using them and allegations of police brutality dropped.  Either the police realized that the tape could contradict their story and or the civilians making the complaints realized that any false ones would be seen to be false on the tape.

Whether Congress would pass it is another matter.  Law and order GOP might go for it - on the idea that it protects good cops, and well bad cops are either going to have to change or be caught on tape being bad.

katbast

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Re: Ferguson
« Reply #22 on: November 27, 2014, 10:34:54 am »
Quote from: sailor;166215
Well, Obama could propose Federal funding to get more body cams for police officers, especially in areas with lots of poor minority residents.  There was one town in CA that started using them and allegations of police brutality dropped.  Either the police realized that the tape could contradict their story and or the civilians making the complaints realized that any false ones would be seen to be false on the tape.

Whether Congress would pass it is another matter.  Law and order GOP might go for it - on the idea that it protects good cops, and well bad cops are either going to have to change or be caught on tape being bad.

 
Now that's a good idea for both sides. As much as I want to believe in the good in people, plenty of people make false complaints too.

Sarah

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Re: Ferguson
« Reply #23 on: November 27, 2014, 10:41:16 am »
Quote from: katbast;166216
Now that's a good idea for both sides. As much as I want to believe in the good in people, plenty of people make false complaints too.

 
what are your sources for this?
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katbast

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Re: Ferguson
« Reply #24 on: November 27, 2014, 10:54:55 am »
Quote from: Jake_;166217
what are your sources for this?

 
That people make false complaints? Working in retail for many years. I was just saying that the body cam idea would help keep everyone honest.

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Re: Ferguson
« Reply #25 on: November 27, 2014, 11:31:53 am »
Quote from: sailor;166215
Well, Obama could propose Federal funding to get more body cams for police officers, especially in areas with lots of poor minority residents.  There was one town in CA that started using them and allegations of police brutality dropped.  Either the police realized that the tape could contradict their story and or the civilians making the complaints realized that any false ones would be seen to be false on the tape.

Whether Congress would pass it is another matter.  Law and order GOP might go for it - on the idea that it protects good cops, and well bad cops are either going to have to change or be caught on tape being bad.

 
I've heard about those.

There are also camera guns that can be mounted on a tactical rail that film whenever they're drawn from a holster.

Make those mandatory. Prosecution of these crimes becomes easier, as guilt is plain to see.
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sailor

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Re: Ferguson
« Reply #26 on: November 28, 2014, 06:52:48 am »
Quote from: Cuthwin Crowe;166221
Make those mandatory. Prosecution of these crimes becomes easier, as guilt is plain to see.

 
Or proving innocence is easier as the guilt of the dead civilian is plain to see.

Micheál

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Re: Ferguson
« Reply #27 on: November 28, 2014, 08:08:18 am »
Quote from: Cuthwin Crowe;166221
I've heard about those.

There are also camera guns that can be mounted on a tactical rail that film whenever they're drawn from a holster.

Make those mandatory. Prosecution of these crimes becomes easier, as guilt is plain to see.

I think it's too late by that stage...

I've been following this story and honesty don't know what to make of it. It's a shame when someone looses their life, families loose a son, can be see grieving, it's just terrible.

But I'm seeing this all over Facebook from people that actually have no clue what it's like living in St. Louis, let alone have even been to America. Way to many preconceived notions. Being born and bred there I think race had nothing to do with it. Now whether or not the police procedure was heavy handed(which they have a reputation for there), and the grand jury being unfair, is a different issue. Senseless violence is what needs to be tackled here.

Oddly enough I was last in St. Louis in June for a relatives wedding. It was 2 weeks before I had an MMA fight here, so I stopped by a local gym to keep in shape, and at a Jiu Jitsu class was a policeman trying to learn self defence techniques for his job(every year STL is ranked within the top 5 of the countries most dangerous cities)He was learning a kimura technique which could be applied if someone were to reach for his holster.  When the instructor asked what merited a finishing technique,  the officer responded that if someone went for his weapon it's grounds for the use of deadly force. We were trained the same in the Marines. I'm not trying to take from the tragedy of Mike Brown's case here, but it should be common knowledge that it's not wise to strike an officer and go for his weapon in general, and in this case the majority of witnesses attested to that happening.

Redfaery

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Re: Ferguson
« Reply #28 on: November 28, 2014, 09:19:44 am »
Quote from: Micheál;166257
But I'm seeing this all over Facebook from people that actually have no clue what it's like living in St. Louis, let alone have even been to America. Way to many preconceived notions. Being born and bred there I think race had nothing to do with it. Now whether or not the police procedure was heavy handed(which they have a reputation for there), and the grand jury being unfair, is a different issue. Senseless violence is what needs to be tackled here.

 
But Mike Brown was not finished off with a martial arts technique as he reached for Darren Wilson's gun. He was shot seven times as he had his hands in the air.
KARMA: You keep using that word. I do not think it means what you think it means.

Chabas

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Re: Ferguson
« Reply #29 on: November 28, 2014, 09:25:11 am »
Quote from: Micheál;166257

But I'm seeing this all over Facebook from people that actually have no clue what it's like living in St. Louis, let alone have even been to America. Way to many preconceived notions. Being born and bred there I think race had nothing to do with it. Now whether or not the police procedure was heavy handed(which they have a reputation for there), and the grand jury being unfair, is a different issue. Senseless violence is what needs to be tackled here.

 
Rather than rewrite things that have been written out quite thoroughly, let me just leave this link here: http://thesocietypages.org/socimages/2014/11/28/chart-of-the-week-63-of-white-people-are-wrong-about-ferguson/

--Chabas

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