Clinton vs. Trump, round 3: The Final Conflict

[Snake-Bitten]

Frankly the way "crazy" is widely used as a shorthand for "I don't like them" or "I don't agree with them" (or "white person did something horrific" for that matter) is a huge part of the ongoing stigmatization of mental illness in American society and the way people talk about Donald Trump has made it clear that the left is hardly any better about it than the right.

 
You'll get no argument from me there, but I did legitimately mean that I think they are crazy. Half the time I don't think Trump even knows what comes out of his mouth (which is maybe why he's always claiming he didn't say something), and Clinton seems devoid of empathy or compassion.

For what it's worth, I don't devalue anyone for having a mental illness, although I think we rely too heavily on medication as a solution.

[Jack]

You'll get no argument from me there, but I did legitimately mean that I think they are crazy. Half the time I don't think Trump even knows what comes out of his mouth (which is maybe why he's always claiming he didn't say something), and Clinton seems devoid of empathy or compassion.

For what it's worth, I don't devalue anyone for having a mental illness, although I think we rely too heavily on medication as a solution.

 
Prozac has changed my life and made me 100% more functional, a better partner and father, and if my dad had been medicated when I was a kid my childhood would have been a lot different. Also I am fucking tired of having the value of medication constantly questioned in pagan circles when it has nothing to do with the topic at hand.

But hey, I'm suuuuuuuper grateful you don't devalue me! Thanks for that!

As far as Clinton's empathy and compassion? Well aside from the problem of criticizing her for not meeting some arbitrary standard of softness that men don't seem to be held to, she's worked pretty damn hard for the rights of women and children, for 9/11 victims, for the uninsured, blah blah blah whatever it's more fun to believe the right wing argument that Hillary is a robot and also Satan.

(I keep running into people too young to get my "vast right-wing conspiracy" jokes and it makes me sad, y'all. On the up-side, a customer at work told me a Spiro Agnew joke today, so I think there's hope for me yet.)

[HarpingHawke]

Prozac has changed my life and made me 100% more functional, a better partner and father, and if my dad had been medicated when I was a kid my childhood would have been a lot different. Also I am fucking tired of having the value of medication constantly questioned in pagan circles when it has nothing to do with the topic at hand.

 
*raises hand* Being properly medicated is probably one of the best things that's ever happened to my life.

(I see a lot of the time that the argument used against medication is that it's unnatural, but it's just getting my brain chemistry to where it would be if it were normal/natural in the first place. )

As far as candidates go (because I didn't just come here to add my two cents about meds), Clinton has done a remarkable job of keeping composure on stage while Trump...does whatever he does. That said, I strongly dislike both of them. My vote, though, if I had one this November (I'm missing the election by almost exactly a *month*), would go to Clinton, because lesser of two evils and the fact that she's slightly more realistic, blah blah blah.

[RandallS]

For what it's worth, I don't devalue anyone for having a mental illness, although I think we rely too heavily on medication as a solution.

 
Probably because medication WORKS for many mental illnesses as they are caused by brain chemistry problems which the medication fixes (either directly or indirectly). Just like pain mediation WORKS for Lyricfox (and many other people with chronic severe pain) even though the anti-drug people in the government would rather she suffer than use drugs that can be misused by drug addicts.

Sure, some doctors give drugs to people who don't really need them because they feel that's the easy fix -- e.g. declaring a child who is not a model of near perfect behavior as ADHD and drugging him even if he doesn't really have ADHD, but that does not change the fact that someone who actually has ADHD with be greatly helped by those same drugs.

[Darkhawk]

Prozac has changed my life and made me 100% more functional, a better partner and father, and if my dad had been medicated when I was a kid my childhood would have been a lot different. Also I am fucking tired of having the value of medication constantly questioned in pagan circles when it has nothing to do with the topic at hand.

But hey, I'm suuuuuuuper grateful you don't devalue me! Thanks for that!

As far as Clinton's empathy and compassion? Well aside from the problem of criticizing her for not meeting some arbitrary standard of softness that men don't seem to be held to, she's worked pretty damn hard for the rights of women and children, for 9/11 victims, for the uninsured, blah blah blah whatever it's more fun to believe the right wing argument that Hillary is a robot and also Satan.

So on a lark I went and looked up what each of the major candidates has to say about mental health issues in their platform.

Gary Johnson not only doesn't mention mental health that I can find, he doesn't mention health care at all as a thing on his issues page (and that strikes me as one of the weirdest damn things).  What, do all Libertarians have decent-quality employer-provided health insurance that covers dental?  Forget "What is Aleppo?" how about "What is freakin' Obamacare?" on your website?  You for or against?  THE PEOPLE WANT TO KNOW THESE THINGS, GARY.

The Greens with Stein have the word "health" available in a search on their platform page, which does a bit better in acknowledging that this is an ongoing policy thing that's kind of a big deal right now?  Nothing for mental health specifically.  Oh, wait, that's the Green platform which is listed as "not binding on candidates at any level", okaaay, here's Jill Stein's, where the mental health mention is rolled into a single-payer paragraph here:  "Establish an improved “Medicare for All” single-payer public health program to provide everyone with quality health care, at huge savings by eliminating the $400 billion annually spent on  the paperwork and bureaucracy of health insurance. No co-pays, premiums or deductibles. Access to all health care services, including mental health, dental, and vision. Include everyone, period. No restrictions based on pre-existing illness, employment, immigration status, age, or any other category."

Oh, hey, she's also got "Police Training: Conduct periodic training on de-escalating mental health crises, restorative justice and conflict resolution, mental health self-checks and privilege and bias self-checks."  Under Autism she has "Provide support services for autistic individuals and their families across the lifespan. With our proposed Medicare for All system all necessary autism services including occupational therapy, speech therapy, housing, employment services, mental health services, and assistive technologies would be fully covered" and under military/veterans "Ensure the Pentagon takes all steps necessary to fully diagnose and treat the physical and mental health conditions resulting from service in combat zones, including post-traumatic stress disorder (PTSD) and Traumatic Brain Injury (TBI)."

The Trump platform has a page on healthcare reform that contains a paragraph about mental health, to wit:  "Finally, we need to reform our mental health programs and institutions in this country. Families, without the ability to get the information needed to help those who are ailing, are too often not given the tools to help their loved ones. There are promising reforms being developed in Congress that should receive bi-partisan support."  That is bigly specific.  We will make mental health great again.  (Seriously, Stein outdoes this at the "my vague generalities actually have some specifics in them" and her platform is one long webpage rather than broken out into sections, but hey, doing better than Johnson!)

... okay, wait if I look at https://www.donaldjtrump.com/positions/ I only see "healthcare reform" and "pay for the wall".  Is there some sort of glitch on my end, or is that really his only platform?  How is this election this fucking weird?

Clinton has an entire policy web page on mental health concerns, specifically, that starts out with "finally putting the treatment of mental health on par with that of physical health", mentions comorbitities with addictions, and expresses concern for veterans, children, and college students with mental health concerns in the first paragraph.  Second paragraph touches on economic and humanitarian costs of mental illness, and then it's into policy.  Which is detailed, specific, full of awareness of why people cannot or do not access care currently and desire to mend that, and full of footnotes.

So in terms of expressing empathy and compassion for crazy people, looks like Clinton's well in the lead to me.  Links provided to campaign policy pages so y'all can judge for yourselves.

Also, WTF.

[Snake-Bitten]

Prozac has changed my life and made me 100% more functional, a better partner and father, and if my dad had been medicated when I was a kid my childhood would have been a lot different. Also I am fucking tired of having the value of medication constantly questioned in pagan circles when it has nothing to do with the topic at hand.

But hey, I'm suuuuuuuper grateful you don't devalue me! Thanks for that!

As far as Clinton's empathy and compassion? Well aside from the problem of criticizing her for not meeting some arbitrary standard of softness that men don't seem to be held to, she's worked pretty damn hard for the rights of women and children, for 9/11 victims, for the uninsured, blah blah blah whatever it's more fun to believe the right wing argument that Hillary is a robot and also Satan.

(I keep running into people too young to get my "vast right-wing conspiracy" jokes and it makes me sad, y'all. On the up-side, a customer at work told me a Spiro Agnew joke today, so I think there's hope for me yet.)

 

-shrug- Whatever dude.

[Snake-Bitten]

Probably because medication WORKS for many mental illnesses as they are caused by brain chemistry problems which the medication fixes (either directly or indirectly). Just like pain mediation WORKS for Lyricfox (and many other people with chronic severe pain) even though the anti-drug people in the government would rather she suffer than use drugs that can be misused by drug addicts.

Sure, some doctors give drugs to people who don't really need them because they feel that's the easy fix -- e.g. declaring a child who is not a model of near perfect behavior as ADHD and drugging him even if he doesn't really have ADHD, but that does not change the fact that someone who actually has ADHD with be greatly helped by those same drugs.

 

You'll find that I didn't say every case relies on medication when they shouldn't.

[MadZealot]

(I keep running into people too young to get my "vast right-wing conspiracy" jokes and it makes me sad, y'all.)

Meh.  That joke blows.  :sick::whis:

[Jack]

You'll find that I didn't say every case relies on medication when they shouldn't.

Do you also wander into conversations where someone has mentioned having cancer and announce that you think chemo isn't always worth the side effects or is mental illness special?

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[Snake-Bitten]

Do you also wander into conversations where someone has mentioned having cancer and announce that you think chemo isn't always worth the side effects or is mental illness special?

 

It is your choice to pick apart calm, innocent conversation so that you may find offense with it. I, however, will not bear your emotional burdens for you. Best of luck with your future endeavors.

[Redfaery]

It is your choice to pick apart calm, innocent conversation so that you may find offense with it. I, however, will not bear your emotional burdens for you. Best of luck with your future endeavors.

To be fair, the "everybody is overmedicated" trope IS pretty offensive. But whatever.

[Snake-Bitten]

To be fair, the "everybody is overmedicated" trope IS pretty offensive. But whatever.

 

And again, I'm not saying it as an "every case" statement. Quite frankly, this whole conversation has gotten ridiculous and I'm not sure why I bothered with it in the first place seeing as I don't support any of the candidates.

[Castus]

And again, I'm not saying it as an "every case" statement. Quite frankly, this whole conversation has gotten ridiculous and I'm not sure why I bothered with it in the first place seeing as I don't support any of the candidates.

It isn't our fault that "we rely too heavily on medication as a solution [to mental illness]" is (a. legitimately ignorant, and (b. perpetuates a dangerous mindset which is not unknown in the pagan community, which rejects mainstream medication.

[Jack]

It is your choice to pick apart calm, innocent conversation so that you may find offense with it. I, however, will not bear your emotional burdens for you. Best of luck with your future endeavors.

Well you know how it is, us crazy people and our unstable emotions when people are making random judgements about the mentally ill for no damn reason whatsoever. So irrational.

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[Altair]

Well you know how it is, us crazy people and our unstable emotions when people are making random judgements about the mentally ill for no damn reason whatsoever. So irrational.

Well, that conversation went south pretty quickly.

As someone who has worked for the last 15 years indirectly in the pharma industry, I fall somewhere between Jack and Snake-Bitten; I recognize the tremendous benefits proper medication can bring (whether we're talking mental illness or any other kind of illness), but I'm also wary of the inappropriate prescribing and misleading claims of efficacy (and other abuses) that I've seen Big Pharma foster whenever they think they can get away with it.

Maybe I'm wrong, but by my reading of his posts, Snake-Bitten didn't mean to cause offense, and if there's a learning curve for those of us who don't have firsthand experience dealing with mental illness (in ourselves or in loved ones), perhaps that learning is better served with a little more patient explanation, and less piling on.