collapse
2019 Donation Drive

It's time for our annual Server Donation Drive! We need to raise at least $650 (same as last year) to keep The Cauldron's server online for another year. Please help! Either hit that Paypal button to the right and make a one-time donation in any amount or set up a monthly Bronze, Silver or Gold Donor subscription. You can find more info in this message!

Donations as of 13 Sept 2019: $656 donated. $6 more our minimum goal! Let's beat last year's total of $99 more than the minimum!


Note: This total is updated manually, usually once a day


* "Unable to verify referring url. Please go back and try again" Problem Logging In?

If you get an "Unable to verify referring url. Please go back and try again" error when you try to log in, you need to be sure you are accessing the board with a url that starts with "https://ecauldron.com".  If it starts with https://www.ecauldron.com" (or "http://www.ecauldron.com") you will get this error because "www.ecauldron.com" is not technically the same website as "ecauldron.com". Moving to the more secure "https" means it is more picky about such things.

Author Topic: Air force requires an oath to God to (re)enlist  (Read 6308 times)

DavidMcCann

  • Journeyman
  • *****
  • Join Date: Nov 2013
  • Posts: 147
  • Total likes: 1
    • View Profile
Re: Air force requires an oath to God to (re)enlist
« Reply #30 on: September 13, 2014, 05:32:43 pm »
Quote from: Sage;158821
I don't understand your post. Why are you assuming atheists and Pagans are naturally separate groups (and thus ignoring the existence of atheist and agnostic Pagans)?

Paganism is a religion. Atheism is a denial of religion. Hence "atheistic paganism" is a contradiction in terms. If you want to assign your own meanings to words, do a Zamenhof and invent your own language.

Quote from: MadZealot;158826
Hm.  Well... not an atheist, but any oaths I take are on my terms.

Well, unless you're conscripted, no one will force you to join the USAF. And even if you were, you could always opt for the army.

Quote from: Aster Breo;158829
And I certainly don't have to be an atheist -- or anything else -- to want to defend someone's Constitutional rights.

Feel free! The question is whether the constitutional ban on a state religion in the US was actually to be a ban on all references to religion by the state, or just a protection for minorities (like the Unitarian Jefferson) against intolerant majorities (like most of New England in those days). I suspect the latter. From my point of view, the combination of a written constitution with the common law system of judicial interpretation just enables judges to make up laws without the bother of actually running for office. Of course, neither my opinion nor yours has anything to do with religion.
Minorities are almost always in the right.
They haif said. Quhat say they? Lat thame say!

Sage

  • Adept Member
  • ********
  • Join Date: Jul 2011
  • Posts: 2186
  • Total likes: 4
    • View Profile
    • http://sageandstarshine.wordpress.com
Re: Air force requires an oath to God to (re)enlist
« Reply #31 on: September 13, 2014, 05:54:19 pm »
Quote from: DavidMcCann;158869
Paganism is a religion. Atheism is a denial of religion. Hence "atheistic paganism" is a contradiction in terms. If you want to assign your own meanings to words, do a Zamenhof and invent your own language.


Nope. "Atheism" means "doesn't believe in a deity." "Paganism" is not for you to define. There is nothing that unites modern Pagans besides the use of the term Pagan. That's it. Nothing about belief, nothing about practice, not even agreement about what "Pagan" as a term means. Many modern Pagan religions are orthopraxic, about action, rather than orthodoxic, about belief.

Citation: I was an atheist/agnostic Pagan for a few years. I didn't believe in deities. I might have prayed to them and I certainly sat in circle several times. I considered myself a Pagan, so I was a Pagan. That's for individuals to define for themselves. Not you.
Maker, though the darkness comes upon me,
I shall embrace the light. I shall weather the storm.
I shall endure.
What you have created, no one can tear asunder.

-Canticle of Trials 1:10

Sage and Starshine (my spiritual blog): last updated 2/25.
Friday Otherfaith Blogging: last updated 2/27
Join the Emboatening Crew over on Kiva! Emboatening the boatless since Opet 2013.

Darkhawk

  • Senior Staff
  • *
  • Join Date: Jun 2011
  • Posts: 4821
  • Country: us
  • Total likes: 709
    • View Profile
    • Suns in her Branches
  • Religion: An American Werewolf in the Akhet; Kemetic; Feri; Imaginary Baltic Heathen; Discordian; CoX; Etc.
  • Preferred Pronouns: any of he, she, they
Re: Air force requires an oath to God to (re)enlist
« Reply #32 on: September 13, 2014, 06:00:34 pm »
Quote from: DavidMcCann;158869
Paganism is a religion.


And fruit is an apple.
as the water grinds the stone
we rise and fall
as our ashes turn to dust
we shine like stars    - Covenant, "Bullet"

ainellewellyn

  • Journeyman
  • *****
  • Join Date: Nov 2013
  • Posts: 153
  • Country: de
  • Total likes: 3
    • View Profile
    • of the Other Peopl
  • Religion: Otherfaith
Re: Air force requires an oath to God to (re)enlist
« Reply #33 on: September 13, 2014, 07:57:06 pm »
Quote from: DavidMcCann;158869

Well, unless you're conscripted, no one will force you to join the USAF. And even if you were, you could always opt for the army.

 
Except, you know, for the many reasons someone might prefer being in the USAF, not to mention that most people who have been in the military or are currently there really recommend that new recruits go for the USAF, as it is one of the better branches. Especially compared to the Army. People in the USAF get extra pay if they end up on an Army base, as compensation for the difference in quality and space. And that's just barely beginning to touch on the issue...

It's not constitutional for them to require an oath to god. That's it. (Your claim that Pagans are somehow 'included' in this is...so naive and/or ignorant of reality as to be hilarious. Others have already addressed how not liking a group doesn't mean you toss out their rights.)

MadZealot

  • Adept Member
  • ********
  • Join Date: Nov 2011
  • Location: So Cal
  • Posts: 2445
  • Country: us
  • Total likes: 147
  • Eye yam tu papi.
    • View Profile
  • Religion: Bitter Clinger. Sith Lord.
Re: Air force requires an oath to God to (re)enlist
« Reply #34 on: September 13, 2014, 10:00:30 pm »
Quote from: DavidMcCann;158869

Well, unless you're conscripted, no one will force you to join the USAF. And even if you were, you could always opt for the army.


You miss the point.  Conscripted or no, we cannot be compelled to swear a religious oath.  To require such is a violation of our free-exercise rights.
Superman is uncircumcised. Change my mind.

Aster Breo

  • Senior Staff
  • *
  • Join Date: Jun 2011
  • Posts: 2823
  • Country: 00
  • Total likes: 43
    • View Profile
Re: Air force requires an oath to God to (re)enlist
« Reply #35 on: September 14, 2014, 12:47:56 am »
Quote from: MadZealot;158886
You miss the point.  Conscripted or no, we cannot be compelled to swear a religious oath.  To require such is a violation of our free-exercise rights.

Not just our free-exercise rights.  As need about, it also violates a different section of the Constitution that says a religious test can't be required to hold public office.
"The status is not quo."  ~ Dr. Horrible

MadZealot

  • Adept Member
  • ********
  • Join Date: Nov 2011
  • Location: So Cal
  • Posts: 2445
  • Country: us
  • Total likes: 147
  • Eye yam tu papi.
    • View Profile
  • Religion: Bitter Clinger. Sith Lord.
Re: Air force requires an oath to God to (re)enlist
« Reply #36 on: September 14, 2014, 02:36:43 am »
Quote from: Aster Breo;158895
Not just our free-exercise rights.  As need about, it also violates a different section of the Constitution that says a religious test can't be required to hold public office.

 
Yeah I looked at the language on that.  Is enlistment considered the same as holding public office?
Superman is uncircumcised. Change my mind.

HarpingHawke

  • Staff
  • *
  • Join Date: Nov 2013
  • Posts: 1530
  • Country: us
  • Total likes: 15
    • View Profile
  • Religion: shapeshifting, witchery, polytheism. under endless construction.
  • Preferred Pronouns: ze/zir or they/them
Re: Air force requires an oath to God to (re)enlist
« Reply #37 on: September 14, 2014, 04:48:25 pm »
Quote from: MadZealot;158898
Yeah I looked at the language on that.  Is enlistment considered the same as holding public office?

 
Pretty sure that's a no.
"There is nothing noble in being superior to your fellow man; true nobility is being superior to your former self." - Hemingway

DavidMcCann

  • Journeyman
  • *****
  • Join Date: Nov 2013
  • Posts: 147
  • Total likes: 1
    • View Profile
Re: Air force requires an oath to God to (re)enlist
« Reply #38 on: September 14, 2014, 05:12:33 pm »
Quote from: Sage;158870
"Paganism" is not for you to define.

Nor for you. The meanings of words are defined by the society which uses them.

"When I use a word", Humpty Dumpty said in rather a scornful tone, "it means just what I choose it to mean — neither more nor less."
"The question is", said Alice, "whether you can make words mean different things."
Minorities are almost always in the right.
They haif said. Quhat say they? Lat thame say!

carillion

  • Sr. Master Member
  • *******
  • Join Date: Jul 2014
  • Posts: 664
  • Total likes: 1
    • View Profile
Re: Air force requires an oath to God to (re)enlist
« Reply #39 on: September 14, 2014, 05:24:03 pm »
Quote from: DavidMcCann;158938
Nor for you. The meanings of words are defined by the society which uses them.

"When I use a word", Humpty Dumpty said in rather a scornful tone, "it means just what I choose it to mean — neither more nor less."
"The question is", said Alice, "whether you can make words mean different things."

 

There is an easy solution - change a declaration to an opinion , vis: " To me, paganism is a religion".
There are no demographic studies/census results which show that society regards the term paganism as a religious signifyer. In the absense of such information all that is available is a personal opinion, not a consensual 'truth'.

Sage

  • Adept Member
  • ********
  • Join Date: Jul 2011
  • Posts: 2186
  • Total likes: 4
    • View Profile
    • http://sageandstarshine.wordpress.com
Re: Air force requires an oath to God to (re)enlist
« Reply #40 on: September 14, 2014, 05:34:07 pm »
Quote from: DavidMcCann;158938
Nor for you. The meanings of words are defined by the society which uses them.

 
And there is no one definition of Paganism. There is no one Pagan community. Those things do not now, nor have they ever, existed.

My definition matches the board's (the one you're currently posting on) which involves self-identification. If you identify as Pagan, you're in as far as I'm concerned.

You're going to have to deal with the fact that there are atheist, agnostic, and humanistic Pagans. You can ignore them or play the No True Scotsman fallacy all you want, but hey. They exist whether you like it or not.
Maker, though the darkness comes upon me,
I shall embrace the light. I shall weather the storm.
I shall endure.
What you have created, no one can tear asunder.

-Canticle of Trials 1:10

Sage and Starshine (my spiritual blog): last updated 2/25.
Friday Otherfaith Blogging: last updated 2/27
Join the Emboatening Crew over on Kiva! Emboatening the boatless since Opet 2013.

Aster Breo

  • Senior Staff
  • *
  • Join Date: Jun 2011
  • Posts: 2823
  • Country: 00
  • Total likes: 43
    • View Profile
Re: Air force requires an oath to God to (re)enlist
« Reply #41 on: September 14, 2014, 05:49:11 pm »
Quote from: MadZealot;158898
Yeah I looked at the language on that.  Is enlistment considered the same as holding public office?

I wish I could do the case law research to answer this for you myself, but that's not something I can do anymore. However, the article linked in the OP of this thread indicates that the section of the Constitution in question does apply to this case.

Sorry I can't be more definitive. :-(
"The status is not quo."  ~ Dr. Horrible

MadZealot

  • Adept Member
  • ********
  • Join Date: Nov 2011
  • Location: So Cal
  • Posts: 2445
  • Country: us
  • Total likes: 147
  • Eye yam tu papi.
    • View Profile
  • Religion: Bitter Clinger. Sith Lord.
Re: Air force requires an oath to God to (re)enlist
« Reply #42 on: September 14, 2014, 10:27:54 pm »
Quote from: Aster Breo;158945
I wish I could do the case law research to answer this for you myself, but that's not something I can do anymore. However, the article linked in the OP of this thread indicates that the section of the Constitution in question does apply to this case.

Sorry I can't be more definitive. :-(


No worries.  :)  

The wording in the article is a bit vague, but I'd bet that any extant case law hinges on an argument that the enlisted person is as much a 'public servant'-- public employee-- as any elected or appointed public official.  Which makes sense.
Superman is uncircumcised. Change my mind.

Aster Breo

  • Senior Staff
  • *
  • Join Date: Jun 2011
  • Posts: 2823
  • Country: 00
  • Total likes: 43
    • View Profile
Re: Air force requires an oath to God to (re)enlist
« Reply #43 on: September 14, 2014, 11:34:46 pm »
Quote from: MadZealot;158977
No worries.  :)  

The wording in the article is a bit vague, but I'd bet that any extant case law hinges on an argument that the enlisted person is as much a 'public servant'-- public employee-- as any elected or appointed public official.  Which makes sense.

Yeah. Like I said, I haven't and can't do the case law research, but my guess would be that there's a very strong legal argument for extending that provision to military personnel, if it hasn't been already.
"The status is not quo."  ~ Dr. Horrible

Valentine

  • Sr. Master Member
  • *******
  • Join Date: Jul 2011
  • Posts: 936
  • Country: us
  • Total likes: 78
    • View Profile
  • Religion: get free; get others free; make new life in the aftermath
  • Preferred Pronouns: she/her
Re: Air force requires an oath to God to (re)enlist
« Reply #44 on: September 15, 2014, 02:12:40 pm »
Quote from: Altair;158793
Nice! I knew it was unconstitutional, but I didn't know it was unconstitutional
explicitly in bold letters, underlined.

It doesn't surprise me in the least that it's the Air Force that does this. As I recall, until some proselytizing shenanigans got publicity a few years ago and the commanders were forced to dial it back, the Air Force was the branch of the armed services most thoroughly colonized by evangelical Christians--to the point that they were nearly a wholly owned subsidiary of Focus on the Family et al.

 
Indeed.  It's no mistake that they're bunked up together in Colorado Springs.  Jeff Sharlet did really interesting research on the Evangelical takeover of the Air Force, much of which is google-able online or in his book "The Family."

Take note, all y'all: when it gets ugly, Focus on the Family et al. have a mountain fortress equipped with nuclear-armed fighter jets.  Just saying.
"Let be be finale of seem." - Wallace Stevens, "The Emperor of Ice-Cream"
"There isn't a way things should be.  There's just what happens, and what we do."
- Terry Pratchett, "A Hat Full of Sky"

Tags:
 

Related Topics

  Subject / Started by Replies Last post
0 Replies
707 Views
Last post February 03, 2013, 11:01:58 pm
by Wolf's Verse
251 Replies
16753 Views
Last post October 21, 2013, 01:05:06 am
by Melamphoros
6 Replies
1219 Views
Last post May 29, 2014, 11:08:11 am
by llwynog
20 Replies
2018 Views
Last post February 06, 2015, 12:24:54 am
by SunflowerP
6 Replies
581 Views
Last post February 19, 2019, 07:04:22 pm
by Sefiru

* Who's Online

  • Dot Guests: 28
  • Dot Hidden: 0
  • Dot Users: 1
  • Dot Users Online:

* Please Donate!

The Cauldron's server is expensive and requires monthly payments. Please become a Bronze, Silver or Gold Donor if you can. Donations are needed every month. Without member support, we can't afford the server.

* In Memoriam

Chavi (2006)
Elspeth (2010)
Marilyn (2013)

* Cauldron Staff

Co-Hosts:
LyricFox & Randall

Senior Staff:
Darkhawk

Message Board Staff
Board Coordinator:
Sunflower

Assistant Board Coordinator:
Aster Breo

Board Staff:
Allaya, Chatelaine, HarpingHawke, Jenett, Morag, rocquelaire, Sefiru

Discord Chat Staff
Chat Coordinator:
Morag

Reserve Staff:
Aisling

Cauldron Council:
Bob, Catja, Emma-Eldritch, Fausta, Jubes, Kelly, Phouka, Sperran, Star, Steve, Tana

Cauldron Assistants
[Non-Staff Positions]

Site Assistants
[Non-Staff Positions]
Webmaster:
Randall