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Author Topic: Air force requires an oath to God to (re)enlist  (Read 6895 times)

Sage

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Re: Air force requires an oath to God to (re)enlist
« Reply #15 on: September 12, 2014, 01:12:18 pm »
Quote from: DavidMcCann;158820
At last, some sense.

The oath doesn't specify any particular god, so the only people who have a problem are atheists. Why pagans of any variety should feel the need to defend atheists, I can't fathom: they're hardly an endangered species!

 
I don't understand your post. Why on earth are you declaring who can and cannot have a problem with this situation? Why are you assuming atheists and Pagans are naturally separate groups (and thus ignoring the existence of atheist and agnostic Pagans)? Why is this specifically "defending atheists" and why is this a bad thing?
Maker, though the darkness comes upon me,
I shall embrace the light. I shall weather the storm.
I shall endure.
What you have created, no one can tear asunder.

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Juniperberry

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Re: Air force requires an oath to God to (re)enlist
« Reply #16 on: September 12, 2014, 01:22:19 pm »
Quote from: DavidMcCann;158820
At last, some sense.

The oath doesn't specify any particular god, so the only people who have a problem are atheists. Why pagans of any variety should feel the need to defend atheists, I can't fathom: they're hardly an endangered species!

 

Well. That wasn't exactly my point...:(

Don't you think it's sort of ironic that in forcing one to make an oath to god, it destroys whatever was solemn and sacred in the oath to begin with? I wouldn't want to live my life in the service of something that condones that type of behavior.
The pace of progress in artificial intelligence (I’m not referring to narrow AI) is incredibly fast. [...] The risk of something seriously dangerous happening is in the five year timeframe. 10 years at most.--Elon Musk

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MadZealot

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Re: Air force requires an oath to God to (re)enlist
« Reply #17 on: September 12, 2014, 01:54:47 pm »
Quote from: DavidMcCann;158820
At last, some sense.

The oath doesn't specify any particular god, so the only people who have a problem are atheists. Why pagans of any variety should feel the need to defend atheists, I can't fathom: they're hardly an endangered species!

 
Hm.  Well... not an atheist, but any oaths I take are on my terms.
  I don't say "so help me God" just because some fuckwitted bureaucrat demands it.
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Aster Breo

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Re: Air force requires an oath to God to (re)enlist
« Reply #18 on: September 12, 2014, 03:04:01 pm »
Quote from: DavidMcCann;158820
At last, some sense.

The oath doesn't specify any particular god, so the only people who have a problem are atheists. Why pagans of any variety should feel the need to defend atheists, I can't fathom: they're hardly an endangered species!

It doesn't matter if atheists are an "endangered species". What matters is that their Constitutional rights are being unlawfully violated.

And I certainly don't have to be an atheist -- or anything else -- to want to defend someone's Constitutional rights.
"The status is not quo."  ~ Dr. Horrible

RandallS

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Re: Air force requires an oath to God to (re)enlist
« Reply #19 on: September 12, 2014, 04:01:12 pm »
Quote from: Aster Breo;158829
And I certainly don't have to be an atheist -- or anything else -- to want to defend someone's Constitutional rights.

Exactly. I'd defend a fundie TV preacher if his constitutional rights were being violated -- I may not like fundie TV preachers much (and I think their religious beliefs are incomphrensible), but I like constitutional rights a lot.  Even people I don't agree with deserve those protections -- I find it hard to follow the thought processes of those who don't think they should apply to someone just because they hold a position they don't agree with/like.
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Aster Breo

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Re: Air force requires an oath to God to (re)enlist
« Reply #20 on: September 12, 2014, 08:21:44 pm »
Quote from: DavidMcCann;158820
At last, some sense.

The oath doesn't specify any particular god, so the only people who have a problem are atheists. Why pagans of any variety should feel the need to defend atheists, I can't fathom: they're hardly an endangered species!

Also, as a pagan dedicated to a godDESS, I actually *would* have a problem with "so help me god".
"The status is not quo."  ~ Dr. Horrible

Sage

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Re: Air force requires an oath to God to (re)enlist
« Reply #21 on: September 12, 2014, 09:25:13 pm »
Quote from: Aster Breo;158839
Also, as a pagan dedicated to a godDESS, I actually *would* have a problem with "so help me god".

 
"So help me God" isn't a generic statement by any stretch of the imagination, anyway. I know which deity they're talking about and it's not one I want to oath to.

If people are going to put their lives on the line to protect their nation, the least that can be done is to respect their identity.
Maker, though the darkness comes upon me,
I shall embrace the light. I shall weather the storm.
I shall endure.
What you have created, no one can tear asunder.

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missgraceless

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Re: Air force requires an oath to God to (re)enlist
« Reply #22 on: September 12, 2014, 09:25:48 pm »
Quote from: Aster Breo;158839
Also, as a pagan dedicated to a godDESS, I actually *would* have a problem with "so help me god".

Slightly unrelated but still kind of: I listen to a lot of country music, and most of it is 'MURICA FUCK YEAH, including "in God we trust," "one nation under God," etc. While it does slightly bother me, I just change it to "gods" when I sing along. That way it still fits with the melody, but encompasses more than just the JIC God. And so none of my hick* friends give me shit.

I know this doesn't apply to atheists and agnostics, but that's my little loophole.



*I use the term lovingly. I can't say Southern friends because we're all from/in CT.
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Aster Breo

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Re: Air force requires an oath to God to (re)enlist
« Reply #23 on: September 13, 2014, 01:10:19 am »
Quote from: missgraceless;158842
I just change it to "gods" when I sing along. That way it still fits with the melody, but encompasses more than just the JIC God. And so none of my hick* friends give me shit.

I know this doesn't apply to atheists and agnostics, but that's my little loophole.

And if that works for you, I totally respect it.

It doesn't work for me, as a henotheist, though.
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Sophia C

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Re: Air force requires an oath to God to (re)enlist
« Reply #24 on: September 13, 2014, 03:57:09 am »
Quote from: Sage;158841
"So help me God" isn't a generic statement by any stretch of the imagination, anyway. I know which deity they're talking about and it's not one I want to oath to.

In our courts, we have the option of affirming, rather than swearing on a religious text or by a certain deity. I took this option when I was a witness a while ago. There's a similar right to affirm in the armed forces. The option is a couple of hundred years old - the Quakers fought for it, I believe.

The National Secular Society has been campaigning for one non-religious oath for all in courts, and getting rid of the dated practice or swearing on the Bible entirely, but that's controversial. http://www.secularism.org.uk/blog/2012/01/a-single-oath-in-court-for-all-regardless-of-belief-or-religion The aim would be to avoid these kinds of religious impositions in civil contexts.
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Redfaery

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Re: Air force requires an oath to God to (re)enlist
« Reply #25 on: September 13, 2014, 06:23:03 am »
Quote from: Naomi J;158847
In our courts, we have the option of affirming, rather than swearing on a religious text or by a certain deity. I took this option when I was a witness a while ago. There's a similar right to affirm in the armed forces. The option is a couple of hundred years old - the Quakers fought for it, I believe.

The National Secular Society has been campaigning for one non-religious oath for all in courts, and getting rid of the dated practice or swearing on the Bible entirely, but that's controversial. http://www.secularism.org.uk/blog/2012/01/a-single-oath-in-court-for-all-regardless-of-belief-or-religion The aim would be to avoid these kinds of religious impositions in civil contexts.


In my hometown, there was a lawyer who used to practice with my dad. He really didn't like the idea of everyone being made to swear on the bible. So he had a leather-bound copy of Roget's Thesaurus that looked just right to be the New Testament. No one suspected a thing. Except the other lawyers.

When he died recently, the thesaurus was bequeathed to my father.
KARMA: You keep using that word. I do not think it means what you think it means.

RandallS

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Re: Air force requires an oath to God to (re)enlist
« Reply #26 on: September 13, 2014, 07:41:47 am »
Quote from: Redfaery;158849
In my hometown, there was a lawyer who used to practice with my dad. He really didn't like the idea of everyone being made to swear on the bible. So he had a leather-bound copy of Roget's Thesaurus that looked just right to be the New Testament. No one suspected a thing. Except the other lawyers.

:: snort :: I like that.
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missgraceless

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Re: Air force requires an oath to God to (re)enlist
« Reply #27 on: September 13, 2014, 10:28:40 am »
Quote from: Aster Breo;158845
And if that works for you, I totally respect it.

It doesn't work for me, as a henotheist, though.


What's a henotheist, exactly? I've never heard of the term.
 
Quote from: Redfaery;158849
In my hometown, there was a lawyer who used to practice with my dad. He really didn't like the idea of everyone being made to swear on the bible. So he had a leather-bound copy of Roget's Thesaurus that looked just right to be the New Testament. No one suspected a thing. Except the other lawyers.

When he died recently, the thesaurus was bequeathed to my father.

 
This made me giggle. Did they still say they swear by the Bible, or some other wording?
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Sage

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Re: Air force requires an oath to God to (re)enlist
« Reply #28 on: September 13, 2014, 10:32:15 am »
Quote from: missgraceless;158854
What's a henotheist, exactly? I've never heard of the term.


It's a form of polytheism wherein someone acknowledges the existence of multiple deities but only worships or is devoted to one.
Maker, though the darkness comes upon me,
I shall embrace the light. I shall weather the storm.
I shall endure.
What you have created, no one can tear asunder.

-Canticle of Trials 1:10

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Join the Emboatening Crew over on Kiva! Emboatening the boatless since Opet 2013.

Redfaery

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Re: Air force requires an oath to God to (re)enlist
« Reply #29 on: September 13, 2014, 01:59:59 pm »
Quote from: missgraceless;158854
This made me giggle. Did they still say they swear by the Bible, or some other wording?

 
The oath was exactly the same. The book was not.
KARMA: You keep using that word. I do not think it means what you think it means.

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