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Author Topic: What is this morality thing anyway?  (Read 4855 times)

generic response

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Re: What is this morality thing anyway?
« Reply #30 on: April 29, 2014, 12:43:56 am »
Quote from: Nyktipolos;146408
Are you saying that you have to act morally to have access to things such as clean drinking water, television, and cars? Or are you saying that if one doesn't provide those things, they are being immoral and thus going to get incarcerated or killed?

I mean, for the former, there are plenty of people who don't have access to things such as the basic need for clean drinking water, but through no fault of their own (whether due to colonization, poor action on the part of their leaders, living in a wartorn country, there is a sudden economic collapse, catastrophic natural event, etc.). For the latter, ... I don't really view cars and television on the same basic needs level as water or food. I mean, no government provides cars and tv (well, in some countries, there are basic channels one can access without a tv package); and I'm sure there are some countries where aside from accessibility issues (which should be met), one doesn't need a car to get around their town.

 
For some reason my post didn't go through. Oh well, let's try again. I guess that I have a first world bias. But even in countries like North Korea, you have to be a "moral" person or you get sent off to a prison camp.

generic response

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Re: What is this morality thing anyway?
« Reply #31 on: April 29, 2014, 12:45:23 am »
Quote from: Darkhawk;146409
Soooooooo ... which one of "clean water", "televisions", and "motor vehicles" is the lying, which is the cheating, which is the stealing, and which is the killing?  (Or the lack of each of them.  Or something.)

 
If you kill someone you go to jail (unless you get away with it).

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Re: What is this morality thing anyway?
« Reply #32 on: April 29, 2014, 12:53:38 am »
Quote from: generic response;146412
If you kill someone you go to jail (unless you get away with it).

 
Which has precisely what relationship to televisions, again?
as the water grinds the stone
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we shine like stars    - Covenant, "Bullet"

generic response

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Re: What is this morality thing anyway?
« Reply #33 on: April 29, 2014, 12:56:45 am »
Quote from: Darkhawk;146414
Which has precisely what relationship to televisions, again?

 
The jail I went to didn't have a television.

yewberry

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Re: What is this morality thing anyway?
« Reply #34 on: April 29, 2014, 01:00:18 am »
Quote from: generic response;146415
The jail I went to didn't have a television.


So jail, then, not prison.  Sounds like a first-world problem.

Brina

generic response

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Re: What is this morality thing anyway?
« Reply #35 on: April 29, 2014, 01:02:15 am »
Quote from: yewberry;146416
So jail, then, not prison.  Sounds like a first-world problem.

Brina

 

Yes, I stated earlier that I unintentionally posted with a first world bias. My mistake :o

savveir

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Re: What is this morality thing anyway?
« Reply #36 on: April 29, 2014, 03:32:20 am »
Quote from: generic response;146402
Well, the alternative is usually going to jail or getting killed for being immoral.

It is possible to act immorally within the law. It's also possible to act morally outside of the law.
 I think part of the problem here is that you're mentioning what morality is to you, rather mentioning the consequences of being or not being moral.
« Last Edit: April 29, 2014, 03:34:25 am by savvy »
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Chabas

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Re: What is this morality thing anyway?
« Reply #37 on: April 29, 2014, 03:53:09 am »
Quote from: generic response;146412
If you kill someone you go to jail (unless you get away with it).

Congratulations. You've succeeded in summarizing level one of Kohlberg's stages of moral development.

--Chabas
« Last Edit: April 29, 2014, 03:53:33 am by Chabas »

Chabas

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Re: What is this morality thing anyway?
« Reply #38 on: April 29, 2014, 09:41:27 am »
Quote from: Sage;134939
A discussion on MUX got me thinking... What /is/ this thing we call morality? What do we mean when we talk about living a moral life? Where do morals come from? I realized that I don't really have a good working definition for words like "morality" and "ethics." Many of my personal reactions upon hearing such words come both from a bad religious upbringing and bad experiences in philosophy class in college, so I'd like to start changing how I think about these words.

 
Ah, let's just get back to this, shall we?

I was talking about this (again, in MUX) today, and concluded that, coming from the perspective of a Kemetic and relating morality to ma'at, I'd consider moral behavior to be behavior that strengthens rather than weakens the community. This can mean sticking to the rules because that's how we act as a community, or breaking them, when the rules are not serving the community. It means not stealing, or needlessly attacking someone because that is the basis of our faith in other persons in our community, or responding with appropriate aggression when someone undermines the ties that bind your community together.

--Chabas

Lana288

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Re: What is this morality thing anyway?
« Reply #39 on: May 01, 2014, 09:37:46 pm »
Quote from: Chabas;146429
Ah, let's just get back to this, shall we?

I was talking about this (again, in MUX) today, and concluded that, coming from the perspective of a Kemetic and relating morality to ma'at, I'd consider moral behavior to be behavior that strengthens rather than weakens the community. This can mean sticking to the rules because that's how we act as a community, or breaking them, when the rules are not serving the community. It means not stealing, or needlessly attacking someone because that is the basis of our faith in other persons in our community, or responding with appropriate aggression when someone undermines the ties that bind your community together.

--Chabas

 
I like this. I do have a question, however- what happens if ones own community starts abusing another community? For instance, what happens if Spain went to war with France, won the war, and decided to kill every first born child in Paris? Would it be right for a Spaniard to smuggle a French child out of the country, despite the possibility that child would grow up to harm the Spaniard's community?

Thanks- and sorry for the far-fetched example. It's the only one I can think of right this moment. :o

Valentine

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Re: What is this morality thing anyway?
« Reply #40 on: May 01, 2014, 09:42:00 pm »
Quote from: Germandragon;146549
I like this. I do have a question, however- what happens if ones own community starts abusing another community? For instance, what happens if Spain went to war with France, won the war, and decided to kill every first born child in Paris? Would it be right for a Spaniard to smuggle a French child out of the country, despite the possibility that child would grow up to harm the Spaniard's community?

Thanks- and sorry for the far-fetched example. It's the only one I can think of right this moment. :o

When in doubt, you draw the circle bigger, for who counts as "the community."  In this hypothetical case, the Spanish community might be served in some way, but the human community isn't, and permitting the Spanish community to behave in such a horrific way would not ultimately serve to strengthen the Spanish community, either, would not name more true names or connect more people to each other or make what is real more real.  Therefore, it's in violation of ma'at.  When one community is in conflict with another community, it's complicated, but ma'at is a greater circle than that, and when one community is abusing another community, it is not in alignment with ma'at for itself or for the greater human community.

How's that?
« Last Edit: May 01, 2014, 09:45:20 pm by Valentine »
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Lana288

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Re: What is this morality thing anyway?
« Reply #41 on: May 01, 2014, 10:40:16 pm »
Quote from: Valentine;146550
When in doubt, you draw the circle bigger, for who counts as "the community."  In this hypothetical case, the Spanish community might be served in some way, but the human community isn't, and permitting the Spanish community to behave in such a horrific way would not ultimately serve to strengthen the Spanish community, either, would not name more true names or connect more people to each other or make what is real more real.  Therefore, it's in violation of ma'at.  When one community is in conflict with another community, it's complicated, but ma'at is a greater circle than that, and when one community is abusing another community, it is not in alignment with ma'at for itself or for the greater human community.

How's that?

 
That's good. I enjoyed reading it- it was a bit of a reminder that community doesn't just mean hometown, country, or religion. It can be big, too.

However, there was a part of your post I didn't quite understand. If I can go a little off topic, what did you mean by 'naming true names'? I understand how connecting people to each other relates to morality, but how does naming true names relate? (Sorry, this is my end. I'm not quite up to speed today.)

Chabas

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Re: What is this morality thing anyway?
« Reply #42 on: May 02, 2014, 01:20:27 am »
Quote from: Germandragon;146549
I like this. I do have a question, however- what happens if ones own community starts abusing another community? For instance, what happens if Spain went to war with France, won the war, and decided to kill every first born child in Paris? Would it be right for a Spaniard to smuggle a French child out of the country, despite the possibility that child would grow up to harm the Spaniard's community?

Thanks- and sorry for the far-fetched example. It's the only one I can think of right this moment. :o

Well, firstly, I don't think there's just one definition of "my community" - there are very real ties that bind all of us as a community worldwide, so there's there.

Then, I wouldn't consider war to be to the benefit of my community regardless. It can be a necessary evil - I'm a Sekhmet kid, so "gotta burn this shit down before we can build it up again" is a thing. But I'd generally consider it important to, you know, end the war. And from that standpoint, doesn't it seem like the best start would be to, you know - not kill each other's children? I don't think killing innocent children serves ANY community.

ETA: or: "What Val said"

--Chabas
« Last Edit: May 02, 2014, 01:22:39 am by Chabas »

Lana288

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Re: What is this morality thing anyway?
« Reply #43 on: May 02, 2014, 03:10:35 pm »
Quote from: Chabas;146561
Then, I wouldn't consider war to be to the benefit of my community regardless. It can be a necessary evil - I'm a Sekhmet kid, so "gotta burn this shit down before we can build it up again" is a thing. But I'd generally consider it important to, you know, end the war. And from that standpoint, doesn't it seem like the best start would be to, you know - not kill each other's children? I don't think killing innocent children serves ANY community.

--Chabas

 
I wouldn't think war is very beneficial in of itself, no. It seems to me to be like amputation, in that it should be avoided until necessary to do so.

Then again, there is the time when you have to remove the leg- or burn the shit down, as you said- or something's going to die horribly.

Not suprisingly, I do agree that not killing each other's children is a good thing. I was just wondering if ties to community ended when the community was doing something horrific.

So if I have this right, what's being said is that when the isolated community is doing something evil it's time to remember the responsibility to the greater community. Is that correct? If so, it's definitely something that I can get behind.
« Last Edit: May 02, 2014, 03:11:35 pm by Lana288 »

Chabas

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Re: What is this morality thing anyway?
« Reply #44 on: May 02, 2014, 03:29:34 pm »
Quote from: Germandragon;146585

So if I have this right, what's being said is that when the isolated community is doing something evil it's time to remember the responsibility to the greater community. Is that correct? If so, it's definitely something that I can get behind.

 
That, and if a community as a whole is acting evil, then that community is sick and acting against its own best interests. If your community is sick, you work out a way to heal it - whether that is the equivalent of a few days in bed and some chicken soup, or amputation of a limb that cannot be saved.

My obligations to my community no more mean that I'll always approve of and accept what it does than one's love for one's child means that one always lets it do what it wants.

--Chabas

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