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Author Topic: Social Justice Vs. Conversation - Smackdown?  (Read 26083 times)

carillion

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Re: Social Justice Vs. Conversation - Smackdown?
« Reply #390 on: March 06, 2015, 01:18:07 pm »
Quote from: Sunshine;172532
Maybe because you've also asked upthread for definitions of the concepts of privilege and class background, among others. That strongly implies that you do not have similar levels of knowledge on concepts of social justice and oppression.


No. As I *continually* repeat - " In the context of this thread and this
forum". SJ is a huge area with much jargon and little consensus which is in constant flux.

Sunshine

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Re: Social Justice Vs. Conversation - Smackdown?
« Reply #391 on: March 06, 2015, 01:42:21 pm »
Quote from: carillion;172533
No. As I *continually* repeat - " In the context of this thread and this
forum". SJ is a huge area with much jargon and little consensus which is in constant flux.

 
Perhaps it's just a matter of poor word choice and placing these disclaimers in separate posts to your questions.

Quote from: carillion;172331

Also, 'class background'? What on earth does that mean?


Class background is not a concept in much flux, unless you want to argue over thresholds for belonging to certain classes. If you believe you have the basic concepts of the conversation, but want to make sure you understand their usage in this forum, I think there is probably a way to state that more clearly. "My understanding of 'x' is... Are you using 'x' to mean something else?" rather than "What on earth does that mean?"

carillion

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Re: Social Justice Vs. Conversation - Smackdown?
« Reply #392 on: March 06, 2015, 02:18:58 pm »
Quote from: Sunshine;172534
Perhaps it's just a matter of poor word choice and placing these disclaimers in separate posts to your questions.



Class background is not a concept in much flux, unless you want to argue over thresholds for belonging to certain classes. If you believe you have the basic concepts of the conversation, but want to make sure you understand their usage in this forum, I think there is probably a way to state that more clearly. "My understanding of 'x' is... Are you using 'x' to mean something else?" rather than "What on earth does that mean?"

 

Yes. I do have an awful tendency toward prolixity but certainly I could extend that to totally qualifying all questions and statements before I write them. It would be like being back in University facing an Oral exam. :).

I am well aware of various sorts of class systems having lived in a number of countries. I do understand socio-political and cultural demarcations of societal 'standing. And perhaps you should check again because Class background is a concept very much in flux these days, and not only in Developing countries.

But the case in point was directed from a Canadian to a Canadian within a discussion in which I was asking about their experience in the Canadian culture. The quantifiers of 'Class' are quite varied . So I was trying for clarity and context.

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Re: Social Justice Vs. Conversation - Smackdown?
« Reply #393 on: March 06, 2015, 03:11:10 pm »
Quote from: Chabas;172507


So for anyone who feel they can have scorched earth arguments here, because it's not like they have anything to lose if they are forced to leave here: I here by cordially (and purely on my personal title, not in any staff capacity) invite you to just leave, if there is so little value for you here. Because not only are you not seeing the value of this community - you are destroying it for others.

--Chabas



Frankly, you and the other long-term members are doing the most damage to TC.


 "Forums are dying out yes, for a variety of reasons.
When discussion and the exchange of ideas cease and it just becomes name calling or character assassination in thread after thread, it quickly kills the desire to put one's opinion out there
When a forum has a group of bullies that dog pile new arrivals (which I have seen occur throughout the years on various forums) it becomes inbred and that is sure death
with that said, there must also be a certain amount of tension to keep things interesting or that will kill it too I don't come in here to sing kumbaya either
it's a delicate balance
" (relevant off site comment)

Its like when people hoard animals; they care for the animals so much that they can't see the reality of how they are neglecting/injuring their pets.

To be quite honest, I'm not sure what you're doing. You hardly ever post on the actual forum and spend the majority of your time in chat with your friends. But when new people come on who actually have the interest and desire to participate as active members of the discussion forum, you and the other senior members (most of whom are also staff) "cordially invite" them to go away and in doing so create a hostile, unwelcome environment. Eventually you guys will be all alone chatting over the carcass of the forum. Its childish and selfish.  

IMO, this behavior is at its most obvious in SJ threads, when discussion and ideas are silenced in favor of insults and character assassination. And that is the *real* issue with the topic *on this forum*, and not the SJ issues itself.
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Re: Social Justice Vs. Conversation - Smackdown?
« Reply #394 on: March 06, 2015, 05:10:08 pm »
Quote from: Juniperberry;172540
IMO, this behavior is at its most obvious in SJ threads, when discussion and ideas are silenced in favor of insults and character assassination. And that is the *real* issue with the topic *on this forum*, and not the SJ issues itself.

Thank you for providing such a clear example of the referenced behavior.

I'm not staff. I do spend a lot of time in the MUX chat.  My experience with the staffers on this board has been nothing but positive, and I've learned a lot from them. So I take exception to your characterization, and am proud to stand as a counterexample of the good things that can come from the example of Chabas and everyone else that has done the work of moderating this board over the years.

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Re: Social Justice Vs. Conversation - Smackdown?
« Reply #395 on: March 06, 2015, 05:18:22 pm »
Quote from: Amphibian;172553
Thank you for providing such a clear example of the referenced behavior.

I'm not staff. I do spend a lot of time in the MUX chat.  My experience with the staffers on this board has been nothing but positive, and I've learned a lot from them. So I take exception to your characterization, and am proud to stand as a counterexample of the good things that can come from the example of Chabas and everyone else that has done the work of moderating this board over the years.

I'm proud to stand for that too.
 
Chabas and the other staff are amazing examples of people who put in a huge amount of work, every day, on a voluntary basis, for no reward. It's long past time we recognised her and the other staff for the incredible work they do. This 'social justice war' crap is appalling, and is now getting in the way of the hard work of really good people. The people who have shown the most dignity in this 'debate'.

What the HELL.

Thanks for the impetus to take a stand, Amphibian. I had started to forget what this was about. It's about good people who deserve recognition rather than this crap.
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Fier

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Re: Social Justice Vs. Conversation - Smackdown?
« Reply #396 on: March 06, 2015, 05:28:54 pm »
Quote from: Juniperberry;172540
Frankly, you and the other long-term members are doing the most damage to TC.

 
I wasn't going to respond to you, because frankly, the nonsense you post is not worth my time.

But you attacked one of my friends, and she is worth my time.

Chabas is an amazing example of someone who is willing to give her time to repeatedly try and explain things so the opposite viewpoint can understand them. The accusation that she is what is most damaging to this forum is ridiculous.

random417

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Re: Social Justice Vs. Conversation - Smackdown?
« Reply #397 on: March 06, 2015, 06:01:58 pm »
Quote from: Juniperberry;172540
Frankly, you and the other long-term members are doing the most damage to TC.
 

Honestly, the response to my post was justified, and handled in an appropriate manner. Who's "right" (in quotes because idk if right or wrong is fair here) with our sideline is something I expect to still discuss. I still disagree, as my response points out, but that as a response is understandable, and was handled well.

I kind of agree with what you said, but I don't think that's a fair way to phrase that. IF I were going to say something to that effect, I think more fair and accurate at this point, as it's mostly contained to one group of issues would be:  SJ advocates, many of which are long term members and staff (which IS an issue) are doing the most damage to this forum.

Further, Chabas is NOT someone that I consider one of the worst offenders (in my experience anyway). I'm not going to discuss who I feel are the worst offenders except to say Chabas isn't on the list.


*edited for misspelling Chabas' name, apologies*
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Aster Breo

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Re: Social Justice Vs. Conversation - Smackdown?
« Reply #398 on: March 06, 2015, 06:04:09 pm »
Quote from: Juniperberry;172540
Frankly, you and the other long-term members are doing the most damage to TC.


 "Forums are dying out yes, for a variety of reasons.
When discussion and the exchange of ideas cease and it just becomes name calling or character assassination in thread after thread, it quickly kills the desire to put one's opinion out there
When a forum has a group of bullies that dog pile new arrivals (which I have seen occur throughout the years on various forums) it becomes inbred and that is sure death
with that said, there must also be a certain amount of tension to keep things interesting or that will kill it too I don't come in here to sing kumbaya either
it's a delicate balance
" (relevant off site comment)

Its like when people hoard animals; they care for the animals so much that they can't see the reality of how they are neglecting/injuring their pets.

To be quite honest, I'm not sure what you're doing. You hardly ever post on the actual forum and spend the majority of your time in chat with your friends. But when new people come on who actually have the interest and desire to participate as active members of the discussion forum, you and the other senior members (most of whom are also staff) "cordially invite" them to go away and in doing so create a hostile, unwelcome environment. Eventually you guys will be all alone chatting over the carcass of the forum. Its childish and selfish.  

IMO, this behavior is at its most obvious in SJ threads, when discussion and ideas are silenced in favor of insults and character assassination. And that is the *real* issue with the topic *on this forum*, and not the SJ issues itself.

 
*** MOD HAT ON ***

Juniperberry:

Your post (quoted above) is a personal attack against Chabas, and, therefore, a violation of the rules of this forum.

This is a formal warning.

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RandallS

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Re: Social Justice Vs. Conversation - Smackdown?
« Reply #399 on: March 06, 2015, 06:18:44 pm »
Quote from: ainellewellyn;172517
That's one of the most blantant misreadings I've ever seen. Or you really don't understand how oppression works and is perpetuated.

You right, I don't understand. The Cauldron is a private entity, not a government so people only have the privileges the forum owners give them (no one has an real "rights" here other than the forum owners) and we give the same privileges to anyone who follows the rules: we neither know (unless they tell us and then we are unlikely to remember unless we interact with them a lot) nor care what their sex, gender, sexual orientation, minority status, or the like is. I suppose we "oppress" people by making them obey the rules we set, but if that is "oppression" then we "oppress" everyone equally.

The idea that TC can can somehow deny people the "necessities of life" is so ludicrous I can even think of anything to say about it, other than it is ludicrous.
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RandallS

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Re: Social Justice Vs. Conversation - Smackdown?
« Reply #400 on: March 06, 2015, 06:26:39 pm »
Quote from: Juniperberry;172540
To be quite honest, I'm not sure what you're doing. You hardly ever post on the actual forum and spend the majority of your time in chat with your friends. But when new people come on who actually have the interest and desire to participate as active members of the discussion forum, you and the other senior members (most of whom are also staff) "cordially invite" them to go away and in doing so create a hostile, unwelcome environment. Eventually you guys will be all alone chatting over the carcass of the forum. Its childish and selfish.

[mod=HOST HAT ON]Whiskey Tango Foxtrot? I don't know where this attack on one of my staff came from, but it was uncalled for. While even I have problems with the way some of the social justice stuff has been handled on this board if I thought Chabas was the problem, she would no longer be staff. Note that she still is staff. Where she spends her staff time is the concern of the hosts, not you. You have a one week vacation to remember that you are not a Host or in charge of staff duties.
 [/mod]
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Faemon

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Re: Social Justice Vs. Conversation - Smackdown?
« Reply #401 on: March 06, 2015, 08:25:47 pm »
Quote from: RandallS;172575
people only have the privileges the forum owners give them (no one has an real "rights" here other than the forum owners) and we give the same privileges to anyone who follows the rules: we neither know (unless they tell us and then we are unlikely to remember unless we interact with them a lot) nor care what their sex, gender, sexual orientation, minority status, or the like is.

I suppose we "oppress" people by making them obey the rules we set, but if that is "oppression" then we "oppress" everyone equally.


With that standpoint, it's coming off to me that how to contend with Cauldron conversations where social justice is brought in (whether as insider jargon, or dogpiling dissidents or ignoramuses with conveniently self-serving rational the "rectitude" of which relies solely on agreement, or a tangential correction that escalates into a rift in fundamental philosophies of the participants, or standing and speaking for a cause for newer and better standards of the human condition and status quo society and especially to ensure that those most in need of social support don't feel alone) would be a communal effort rather than an authoritative one, if you've already got standards in a system that works. Do I understand this correctly?

Quote
The idea that TC can can somehow deny people the "necessities of life" is so ludicrous I can even think of anything to say about it, other than it is ludicrous.


If not the necessities of life, then a necessary baseline of a fulfilling conversation. I gave an example elsewhere of the casual use of "dumb and lame". In how it's used, those are the furthest four-letter words from verboten that a person can use while still expressing disdain or frustration. Social justice arguments go that those are appallingly dehumanizing words that only became so acceptable because a minority of people is acceptably dehumanized…which should be a horrifying sentence to type and to read. And I can understand how that is true: when the majority (able-bodied) rules, they/we get to spout "dumb" and "lame" and anyone else with the temerity to take put-downs of people personally just better get used to it--and many have. But my argument is that it's not usually what people meant to say anyway and that colloquial lack of clarity makes for worse conversation and, importantly, a communication block that's already there, but people have gotten used to it. The same goes for sexist or racist sentiments.

It's definitely strange to be faced with the counter-sentiment that we ought to express ourselves in ways much different than what everybody has already gotten used to. It can be seen as hostile, unnecessary, tangential to the topic…except that simply pointing it out is an effort to undo what is hostile, unnecessary, and tangential to the topic, even though it's taken as exactly that.

I understand one main concern being that this entire effort is no conversational quality control at all, but a contrivance to tribalism and leave to discourage people from contributing who have not self-examined for prejudices (as a lot of essentially civil and good people haven't) and would not accept the imposition of a paradigm that demands a sacrifice of privileges for and by a lot of shoulder-chipped strangers as if life and socialising weren't difficult enough.

I might just be stating the obvious, but in that case we all just decide what sort of community we want to be.
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random417

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Re: Social Justice Vs. Conversation - Smackdown?
« Reply #402 on: March 06, 2015, 09:20:17 pm »
Quote from: Faemon;172618
I might just be stating the obvious, but in that case we all just decide what sort of community we want to be.

The way I see it, our well meaning SJ advocates are basically backing me and others like me into a corner. We consider ourselves to be perfectly reasonable, polite people, but there's a difference between being polite, and choosing your words specifically in favor of SJ balance, using your words symbolically to lend support.

That's the difference, I think. I'm cool with the idea that carefully chosen words are symbolic of support to a cause. Words have power. My words lend strength and energy to what I choose to lend strength and energy to by my choice.

It's not that I won't speak in ways I consider proper/ethical, but my problem is... I will not be coerced into symbolically representing something that I have issues with. My issues with SJ are with the movement, not the ideal, but they're issues none the less. Politeness and treating others with respect you can have, but I will NOT be coerced into choosing words that symbolically align myself with the SJ movement.

Words have meaning yes, but words also have power. Because of that, I will retain my right to choose my own words, say things in my own way. That IS my right. If it becomes something that isn't wanted here, Randall and the staff have the right to ban me, but I will be choosing my own words up until I'm banned.
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AL 1:42-44

RandallS

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Re: Social Justice Vs. Conversation - Smackdown?
« Reply #403 on: March 06, 2015, 09:35:49 pm »
Quote from: random417;172562
I kind of agree with what you said, but I don't think that's a fair way to phrase that. IF I were going to say something to that effect, I think more fair and accurate at this point, as it's mostly contained to one group of issues would be:  SJ advocates, many of which are long term members and staff (which IS an issue) are doing the most damage to this forum.

[mod=HOST HAT ON]Are you saying I do not have the right to staff this forum with those I wish to? I could make this a social justice only forum if I wanted to do so (which I don't), but it is my forum and my right to decide that. If you think staff is creating an environment you don't like, please find another forum.

This forum is under no obligation to make you (or anyone else) happy. While TC is not a Social Justice forum, it is a discussion and debate forum, and social justice is on topic for debate and discussion here. You may think that damages the forum, but debate and discussion is the purpose of this forum.

If you can't deal with that, don't let the door hit you on the way out. This is not subject to discussion.[/mod]
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EJay

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Re: Social Justice Vs. Conversation - Smackdown?
« Reply #404 on: March 08, 2015, 04:30:12 am »
Quote from: RandallS;172625
Are you saying I do not have the right to staff this forum with those I wish to? I could make this a social justice only forum if I wanted to do so (which I don't), but it is my forum and my right to decide that. If you think staff is creating an environment you don't like, please find another forum.

 
I get this.  This is your forum and you run it as you wish.  We're here, by your leave, because this is your forum and we have the right to leave anytime we wish and you have the right to boot us anytime you wish.  I agree with this.  I'm one of the few Republican pagans I know (more Libertarian, actually), and this philosophy mirrors mine with businesses.

I just want to be able to openly discuss issues.  I know it's tough, sometimes, to do the 101 thing--in a university setting, none of the professors want to teach the 101's.  But you will find the thoughtful people that have the great thoughtful questions that will even make the experienced think about things.  It does get frustrating when people don't do their own research and read the available articles before asking a question that's been asked 500 times before.  But there is a way to guide people to guide themselves without intimidating them so much that they change majors, as it were.

I hate the Jerry Springer types of "conversations."  I much prefer the John McLaughlin  (The McLaughlin Group) style--we disagree, but get to express our opinions openly, that we know will be refuted, but everyone gets a chance to speak their peace without any ugliness.  If it starts getting too noisy, then John steps in, who in this case, is Randall.

My beliefs have changed many, many times throughout my life.  When something comes up, I really need to discuss the issues, either to re-affirm my beliefs or to change them.

As I read through many of the posts, they end by apologizing for disagreeing with the going trend, sometimes even claiming sickness for addled thoughts , in case their views are met with opposition.  I also find a lot of verbose responses, where it seems every word is so carefully considered and the poster needs to use even more verbose phrases to explain their verbose phrases that I don't have a clue to what's even being said!

I do see communication issues here, but I don't think they're the fault of the forum so much as a cultural issue.  "Social Justice" is a term that really does raise the ol' hackles and I can see it on signs as cities burn.  It's a loaded phrase and I think we need to bring it back down a level or two and just start having conversations again.

I think TC brings thinkers.  The people who post, or lurk, here are questioning and have ideas.

There are round-about ways to attack.  You may not mention my name, but knowing that I'm Republican and then stating that Republicans are all morons because of what some senator did... well... that will make me uppity.

I guess it's a cultural thing.  We're all so quick to find fault and sue, because someone must be to blame because I fell out of a tree.  Law suits, road rage, social justice....  there are just so many chips on so many shoulders.

Because I believe TC brings thinkers, I keep hoping we can move past the shoulder-chip mindset and just discuss topics, whether we're newbies or old farts.
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