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Author Topic: Scientific Pantheism  (Read 1237 times)

Donal2018

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Scientific Pantheism
« on: January 09, 2019, 08:01:29 pm »
So I am a Scientific Pantheist, by which I mean that I hold the Cosmos and that which it contains as Sacred and Divine. Within the context of Scientific Pantheism, I am an Eclectic Celtic Pagan.

As a scientifically minded person, I question the existence of Gods, magic, and the supersupernatural, yst I have had real experiences wI th these sort of phenomena that are not easy to dismiss.

So, if the supernatural exists, what is it and how does it operate? My insight (UPG) about this is that certain phenomena surpass our current level of intelligence and the limits of our current science to understand.

As such, we experience these things (gods, magic, the supernatural) in a way that is currently difficult to reconcile with reason and current knowledge. Thus, magic and the supernatural are a natural part of reality that we simply can not fully reconcile with reason.

Donal2018

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Re: Scientific Pantheism
« Reply #1 on: January 09, 2019, 08:05:31 pm »
So I am a Scientific Pantheist, by which I mean that I hold the Cosmos and that which it contains as Sacred and Divine. Within the context of Scientific Pantheism, I am an Eclectic Celtic Pagan.

As a scientifically minded person, I question the existence of Gods, magic, and the supersupernatural, yst I have had real experiences wI th these sort of phenomena that are not easy to dismiss.

So, if the supernatural exists, what is it and how does it operate? My insight (UPG) about this is that certain phenomena surpass our current level of intelligence and the limits of our current science to understand.

As such, we experience these things (gods, magic, the supernatural) in a way that is currently difficult to reconcile with reason and current knowledge. Thus, magic and the supernatural are a natural part of reality that we simply can not fully reconcile with reason.

So, my Eclectic Celtic Paganism is a practice within a larger metaphysical framework of Scientific Pantheism.

Donal2018

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Re: Scientific Pantheism
« Reply #2 on: January 09, 2019, 08:34:43 pm »
So, my Eclectic Celtic Paganism is a practice within a larger metaphysical framework of Scientific Pantheism.

Another aspect of my Scientific Pantheism is the Science part, which I assert means using scientific understanding of the World and the Cosmos whenever possible. This while recognizing that there are limits to Science and even human intellect.

EclecticWheel

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Re: Scientific Pantheism
« Reply #3 on: January 09, 2019, 11:54:30 pm »
So I am a Scientific Pantheist, by which I mean that I hold the Cosmos and that which it contains as Sacred and Divine. Within the context of Scientific Pantheism, I am an Eclectic Celtic Pagan.

As a scientifically minded person, I question the existence of Gods, magic, and the supersupernatural, yst I have had real experiences wI th these sort of phenomena that are not easy to dismiss.

So, if the supernatural exists, what is it and how does it operate? My insight (UPG) about this is that certain phenomena surpass our current level of intelligence and the limits of our current science to understand.

As such, we experience these things (gods, magic, the supernatural) in a way that is currently difficult to reconcile with reason and current knowledge. Thus, magic and the supernatural are a natural part of reality that we simply can not fully reconcile with reason.

You may enjoy this article and the other two articles it references at the top of the page:

http://theisticsatanism.com/philos/reasonable.html#theism

I posted that in my own thread on the nature of belief, although I didn't get any replies:

https://ecauldron.com/forum/philosophy-and-metaphysics/the-nature-of-belief/

In that post I wrote about the nature of my own beliefs and how we make different assumptions in different contexts depending on what is most useful.  The article I posted above on the supernatural deals with that as well.  While methodological naturalism may work well in many contexts, when dealing with some unusual experiences or other aspects of our lives like the mind, emotions, or personal psychology, other assumptions may be more useful.

The article I posted also deals with the topic you mentioned of the limits of the intellect and science.
My personal moral code:

Love wisely, and do what thou wilt.

Donal2018

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Re: Scientific Pantheism
« Reply #4 on: January 10, 2019, 01:02:39 pm »
You may enjoy this article and the other two articles it references at the top of the page:

http://theisticsatanism.com/philos/reasonable.html#theism

I posted that in my own thread on the nature of belief, although I didn't get any replies:

https://ecauldron.com/forum/philosophy-and-metaphysics/the-nature-of-belief/

In that post I wrote about the nature of my own beliefs and how we make different assumptions in different contexts depending on what is most useful.  The article I posted above on the supernatural deals with that as well.  While methodological naturalism may work well in many contexts, when dealing with some unusual experiences or other aspects of our lives like the mind, emotions, or personal psychology, other assumptions may be more useful.

The article I posted also deals with the topic you mentioned of the limits of the intellect and science.

Yes, thanks for the post and the links. I read the article and it makes sense. I practice what I call "creative spirituality". Part of what I mean by it is that I do not have to have hard, literal beliefs in god, gods, goddesses, magic, the supernatural; but that I can entertain these ideas AS ideas. Thus, religion is sort of an art to me, not a science.

That said, I try to employ science and hard knowledge as much as I can and also avoid too much dogma and a lot of "hard" assertions that may or may not be true or valid. Again, I think that what some people might experience as "supernatural" might just be a natural phenomena that is beyond our current ability to understand. So, use science when one is able, but recognize that there are limits to science, knowledge and "hard" understanding.

Sefiru

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Re: Scientific Pantheism
« Reply #5 on: January 10, 2019, 06:49:44 pm »
Another aspect of my Scientific Pantheism is the Science part, which I assert means using scientific understanding of the World and the Cosmos whenever possible. This while recognizing that there are limits to Science and even human intellect.

The way I like to look at it, there are two sides of the world that humans experience, and they're both important: the material world (which is the purview of science) and the emotional/spiritual side (which involves story and art). Each has its own set of rules and ways of getting things done; I wouldn't use magic to build a bridge, but I wouldn't use trigonometry to build a relationship either.

Donal2018

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Re: Scientific Pantheism
« Reply #6 on: January 11, 2019, 12:50:30 pm »
The way I like to look at it, there are two sides of the world that humans experience, and they're both important: the material world (which is the purview of science) and the emotional/spiritual side (which involves story and art). Each has its own set of rules and ways of getting things done; I wouldn't use magic to build a bridge, but I wouldn't use trigonometry to build a relationship either.

Yeah, that makes sense to me, but it brings up the issue of dualism, which I won't really get into at the moment. No need to overcomplicate things. I just wonder if there is science that can work with some of the emotional/spiritual aspects. Maybe some parts of Quantum Physics, which I don't pretend to know too much about. I mostly studied Biology and Chemistry back in the day. There was some quantum stuff in the Physical Chemistry. There is also a book that I like called "The Tao Of Physics". Anyway, thanks for the response. I wouldn't use magic to build a bridge either. Good point.

Sefiru

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Re: Scientific Pantheism
« Reply #7 on: January 11, 2019, 06:36:38 pm »
I just wonder if there is science that can work with some of the emotional/spiritual aspects. Maybe some parts of Quantum Physics, which I don't pretend to know too much about.

... Please, don't go there, I already ranted about that once this month ...  :-[

Donal2018

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Re: Scientific Pantheism
« Reply #8 on: January 12, 2019, 01:10:06 pm »
... Please, don't go there, I already ranted about that once this month ...  :-[

Sorry if the topic bothers you. I just have a sincere interest in it.

Sefiru

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Re: Scientific Pantheism
« Reply #9 on: January 14, 2019, 06:06:00 pm »
Sorry if the topic bothers you. I just have a sincere interest in it.

It's not the topic that bothers me; I'm just really, really tired of people misunderstanding it. If you're interested and want to study actual quantum physics (and not just what new age books say about it), then go for it!

Donal2018

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Re: Scientific Pantheism
« Reply #10 on: February 10, 2019, 11:10:06 pm »
It's not the topic that bothers me; I'm just really, really tired of people misunderstanding it. If you're interested and want to study actual quantum physics (and not just what new age books say about it), then go for it!

I would refer you again to "The Tao Of Physics" by Fritjof Capra. Some might characterize that book as "New Age", but it is a concise description of Modern Physics in comparison to actual Eastern Philosophies and Religions. Capra is a PhD in Physics, not an amateur.

Donal2018

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Re: Scientific Pantheism
« Reply #11 on: February 10, 2019, 11:14:24 pm »
I would refer you again to "The Tao Of Physics" by Fritjof Capra. Some might characterize that book as "New Age", but it is a concise description of Modern Physics in comparison to actual Eastern Philosophies and Religions. Capra is a PhD in Physics, not an amateur.

I would also note that there are plenty of critics of that book, but I found it to be engaging. Capra also makes a lot of Physics understandable to me in succinct form, so that was valuable to me as well.

Donal2018

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Re: Scientific Pantheism
« Reply #12 on: February 10, 2019, 11:36:06 pm »
It's not the topic that bothers me; I'm just really, really tired of people misunderstanding it. If you're interested and want to study actual quantum physics (and not just what new age books say about it), then go for it!

As a final note, I have studied Physics on the Undergraduate level when I was a Biochemistry student. I did not want to create the impression that I just get my Science out of popular works. Anyway, I found the brief chapters on Modern Physics by Capra in his book to be a nice, if minor, supplement to those Undergraduate courses.

arete

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Re: Scientific Pantheism
« Reply #13 on: March 15, 2019, 07:30:30 am »
So, if the supernatural exists, what is it and how does it operate?
The Cosmos we live in is all natural.

''Supernatural'' is beyond our Cosmos. Supernatural doesn't affect us in the slightest.  :)

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Re: Scientific Pantheism
« Reply #14 on: March 15, 2019, 07:32:36 pm »
The Cosmos we live in is all natural.

''Supernatural'' is beyond our Cosmos. Supernatural doesn't affect us in the slightest.  :)

This is closer to the stance I take.

Science is an incredibly important and productive tool for human beings when it comes to interacting with the observable world and gaining knowledge about it. However, like all tools, it has advantages and disadvantages as well as inevitable limits to its reach.

The scientific method which forms the basis for empiricism (the idea that reality can only be known from concrete, explicable sensory experiences--which itself forms much of the modern attitudes towards science vs. magic/religion) has certain defining features. Among them, it requires that people be able to replicate the results of an experiment consistently. This is a good method for teasing out various complex laws of the physical world, which generally responds well to standard models of cause and effect.

The gods and magical forces are, in their own way, a part of our world, both material and otherwise. But they don't reveal themselves through consistent experimental results. They reveal themselves through singular extraordinary experiences, patterns of intuitions and coincidences, peculiar little miracles which never repeat themselves but still stand out as difficult to simply dismiss--and other such fickle, mutable epiphanies. These things are real, but they're extremely difficult (and sometimes impossible) to measure with the empirical methods preferred in science.

If you believe science is the only way of learning about the world, this becomes a problem; you may wind up splitting reality into "natural" and "supernatural" aspects to deal with the issues. But from my perspective, that's not necessary--science is a tool, not a cosmological principle or jealous god. You can't learn everything about everything through science, anymore than you can uncover the secrets of the universe with just a telescope and no microscope.
"The peacock can show its whole tail at once, but I can only tell you a story."
--JAMES ALAN GARDNER

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