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Author Topic: Pantheism, Panentheism, Greeks, and Math  (Read 5611 times)

Gnowan

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Pantheism, Panentheism, Greeks, and Math
« on: March 01, 2016, 03:38:47 am »
Quote from: DIASPORA-1963;187347
What exactly do you mean by "panentheist"? I have seen that before; I am trying to remember where ... Pythagoras is rather like Socrates - more mythical than real - which does not make him less, mind you, but it does make him harder to grasp - what do you think? "Socrates" as we know him was really Plato's memories of him - Pythagoras was the memories of - many people - even more ephemeral! The one piece of Socrates that others had to give us was Xanthippe, his wife; I don't think that Plato mentioned her much, if at all, but others said that she was a shrew whom Socrates loved nonetheless, who mourned him deeply, despite having done nothing but complain about him for 50 years ... Well, maybe Plato mentioned her in one of the dialogues, wherein she did something brilliant (she wasn't stupid), but I forget, so many years since I read the dialogues ... I'm really an Aristotle man. How about you?
Mark


I took this from Mark's intro to create a new thread.  (I hope I did this right!)

The difference between pantheism and panentheism is basically "All Is God" versus "All In God."  Panentheists believe that God is more than the sum of the parts.

And you're right about Pythagoras--where does legend end and the truth begin?  Especially since Pythagoras' students gave credit to him for anything they discovered.  And since none of Pythagoras' philosophy was allowed to be written down, things became rather jumbled later.  But I think that's pretty much what happened with all of our wonderful Greek philosophers--who really knows who said what and when.

However, I remain a groupie of Pythagoras.  :)

"Thou Art God"

~Gnowan

Gnowan

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Re: Pantheism, Panentheism, Greeks, and Math
« Reply #1 on: March 01, 2016, 03:50:23 am »
Quote from: Gnowan;187337
I had to take statistics in college and hated it.  It was obscene to me how people took numbers and data and forced it into something that would serve the user's purpose.  To this day, I am so very leery of how people, including scientists!, interpret their data.


Quote from: DIASPORA-1963;187348
Scientists have to get the results that they are paid to get or else they lose their funding.

That is the sick World in which we live.


Calculus was developed by Newton and Leibniz to discover and explain the universe.

Statistics was created to manipulate the masses.

~Gnowan

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Re: Pantheism, Panentheism, Greeks, and Math
« Reply #2 on: March 01, 2016, 07:05:41 am »
Quote from: Gnowan;187420
I took this from Mark's intro to create a new thread.  (I hope I did this right!)

The difference between pantheism and panentheism is basically "All Is God" versus "All In God."  Panentheists believe that God is more than the sum of the parts.

And you're right about Pythagoras--where does legend end and the truth begin?  Especially since Pythagoras' students gave credit to him for anything they discovered.  And since none of Pythagoras' philosophy was allowed to be written down, things became rather jumbled later.  But I think that's pretty much what happened with all of our wonderful Greek philosophers--who really knows who said what and when.

However, I remain a groupie of Pythagoras.  :)

"Thou Art God"

~Gnowan

 
Pantheism gets more press than panentheism, I believe. I labeled myself as pantheistic before I discovered there was a separate definition for panentheism.
The genderqueer witch your mother warned you about

DIASPORA-1963

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Re: Pantheism, Panentheism, Greeks, and Math
« Reply #3 on: March 01, 2016, 03:48:59 pm »
Quote from: Gnowan;187421
Calculus was developed by Newton and Leibniz to discover and explain the universe.

Statistics was created to manipulate the masses.

~Gnowan

 
Well, that's a bit unfair. Statistics is a form of calculus (a dumbed-down version), and it does a very good job if it is given good information, so a more accurate way to put what you said would be "Statistics are used to manipulate the masses". But it does not have to be that way, is not that way for anyone who knows statistics. I am never fooled by bad data, poor testing, sloppy results. Neither is any other mathematician.
MARK aka CELLVLANVS MAGVS
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DIASPORA-1963

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Re: Pantheism, Panentheism, Greeks, and Math
« Reply #4 on: March 01, 2016, 04:03:04 pm »
Quote from: Gnowan;187420
I took this from Mark's intro to create a new thread.  (I hope I did this right!)

The difference between pantheism and panentheism is basically "All Is God" versus "All In God."  Panentheists believe that God is more than the sum of the parts.

And you're right about Pythagoras--where does legend end and the truth begin?  Especially since Pythagoras' students gave credit to him for anything they discovered.  And since none of Pythagoras' philosophy was allowed to be written down, things became rather jumbled later.  But I think that's pretty much what happened with all of our wonderful Greek philosophers--who really knows who said what and when.

However, I remain a groupie of Pythagoras.  :)

"Thou Art God"

~Gnowan

Not even one of his students discovered the famous theorem. The Babylonians had that long before Pythagoras was born, & we have the carbon-dated, baked-clay cuneiform tablets to prove it. Pythagoras' great contribution was in butting heads w/the rest of the Greeks about the importance of number: he was the World's first great arithmetician. He valued arithmetic more than geometry, & maybe that was what got him into hot water in Greece, not the political dust up. Charles Van Doren suggests as much in his book, A History of Knowledge. Even so, Euclid dealt beautifully w/arithmetic & the rudiments of algebra in 3 books of his Elements, books 7 through 9, albeit he dealt w/both in a geometric fashion - which later suggested the commensurable qualities of the two subjects to later mathematicians, like Descartes, who thus devised the famous - perhaps infamous to beginning algebra students - Cartesian plane. You mention Newton & Leibniz - well, they needed Descartes, who needed Euclid, who probably needed Pythagoras - so, your admiration is not misplaced.
MARK aka CELLVLANVS MAGVS
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DIASPORA-1963

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Re: Pantheism, Panentheism, Greeks, and Math
« Reply #5 on: March 01, 2016, 04:15:29 pm »
Quote from: Gnowan;187420
I took this from Mark's intro to create a new thread.  (I hope I did this right!)

The difference between pantheism and panentheism is basically "All Is God" versus "All In God."  Panentheists believe that God is more than the sum of the parts.

And you're right about Pythagoras--where does legend end and the truth begin?  Especially since Pythagoras' students gave credit to him for anything they discovered.  And since none of Pythagoras' philosophy was allowed to be written down, things became rather jumbled later.  But I think that's pretty much what happened with all of our wonderful Greek philosophers--who really knows who said what and when.

However, I remain a groupie of Pythagoras.  :)

"Thou Art God"

~Gnowan

All is God
All in God
I'm still processing that ...
The second implies that there remains a separation between God and his/her/its creations, does it not?
I'm trying to dig up an essay I wrote when I was 19 or 20. It was entitled, "Summary of My Existential Beliefs" or some such haughty some such, but it captured me as I was. I was proud of that essay. Let me find it.
MARK aka CELLVLANVS MAGVS
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Gnowan

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Re: Pantheism, Panentheism, Greeks, and Math
« Reply #6 on: March 02, 2016, 03:24:21 am »
Quote from: DIASPORA-1963;187446
Well, that's a bit unfair. Statistics is a form of calculus (a dumbed-down version), and it does a very good job if it is given good information, so a more accurate way to put what you said would be "Statistics are used to manipulate the masses". But it does not have to be that way, is not that way for anyone who knows statistics. I am never fooled by bad data, poor testing, sloppy results. Neither is any other mathematician.

 
I stand by my statement.  As you said, statistics relies on whatever data people choose to input.  "Garbage in, garbage out."  It can easily be manipulated and most folks are not mathematicians.  And even good input is biased by the researcher, even one with the best of intentions.

Statistics will always be subjective and therefore subject to error and bias.  And there are a lot of folks who have used this to their advantage, because it's "science" and so folks take it as gospel because "the data says...."

I hate that crap.  But if you play with Number you get some amazing discoveries.  And if you use statistics to play with Number, you also get some amazing discoveries, and it's fun to manipulate the input and see what happens.  But nobody is that honest to say how they've manipulated the input.

But I still believe that mathematics is the language of God.  And I still believe that statistics is a way to corrupt the beauty of mathematics.

~Gnowan

Gnowan

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Re: Pantheism, Panentheism, Greeks, and Math
« Reply #7 on: March 02, 2016, 03:45:18 am »
Quote from: DIASPORA-1963;187449
All is God
All in God
I'm still processing that ...
The second implies that there remains a separation between God and his/her/its creations, does it not?
I'm trying to dig up an essay I wrote when I was 19 or 20. It was entitled, "Summary of My Existential Beliefs" or some such haughty some such, but it captured me as I was. I was proud of that essay. Let me find it.

 
First off, All in God has nothing to do with a creator.  God Is.  Everything is part of God, but God is more than the sum of the parts.

I'm made up of atoms and cells and organs..... but I believe I am more than the sum of my parts.  I am Me.

Each of my cells holds Me, but I am more than the sum of my parts, but each cell contains Me.  I am Me.  A scientist can create a new Me from one of my cells.  Just so, Me contains God.  "Thou Art God."  We are all in God, but God is more than the sum of God's parts.  We are all a part of God, God is more than everything combined, but we are each God in entirety.

I just want to make it clear that in panentheism there is no Creator God as in the Abrahamic religions.  God Is and Thou Art God.

~Gnowan

Gnowan

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Re: Pantheism, Panentheism, Greeks, and Math
« Reply #8 on: March 02, 2016, 03:48:11 am »
Quote from: ViolaRae;187429
Pantheism gets more press than panentheism, I believe. I labeled myself as pantheistic before I discovered there was a separate definition for panentheism.

 
It's always funny to me when I think about how big of a difference there is just by adding another "en." :)

Gnowan

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Re: Pantheism, Panentheism, Greeks, and Math
« Reply #9 on: March 02, 2016, 04:09:18 am »
Quote from: DIASPORA-1963;187447
Not even one of his students discovered the famous theorem. The Babylonians had that long before Pythagoras was born, & we have the carbon-dated, baked-clay cuneiform tablets to prove it. Pythagoras' great contribution was in butting heads w/the rest of the Greeks about the importance of number: he was the World's first great arithmetician. He valued arithmetic more than geometry, & maybe that was what got him into hot water in Greece, not the political dust up. Charles Van Doren suggests as much in his book, A History of Knowledge. Even so, Euclid dealt beautifully w/arithmetic & the rudiments of algebra in 3 books of his Elements, books 7 through 9, albeit he dealt w/both in a geometric fashion - which later suggested the commensurable qualities of the two subjects to later mathematicians, like Descartes, who thus devised the famous - perhaps infamous to beginning algebra students - Cartesian plane. You mention Newton & Leibniz - well, they needed Descartes, who needed Euclid, who probably needed Pythagoras - so, your admiration is not misplaced.

 
I haven't read the references you mentioned, but like you, I believe he appropriated a lot of his mathematics during his travels and those that came after him did the same.  But that's a good thing!

I have no false beliefs about what Pythagoras discovered or who discovered what and what got attributed to Pythagoras.  But Pythagoras brought a lot of it together and created a school of thought that is still the basis of what we use today.

And I believe "All is Number" and "Thou Art God."

~Gnowan

DIASPORA-1963

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Re: Pantheism, Panentheism, Greeks, and Math
« Reply #10 on: March 02, 2016, 04:36:10 am »
Quote from: Gnowan;187473
I stand by my statement.  As you said, statistics relies on whatever data people choose to input.  "Garbage in, garbage out."  It can easily be manipulated and most folks are not mathematicians.  And even good input is biased by the researcher, even one with the best of intentions.

Statistics will always be subjective and therefore subject to error and bias.  And there are a lot of folks who have used this to their advantage, because it's "science" and so folks take it as gospel because "the data says...."

I hate that crap.  But if you play with Number you get some amazing discoveries.  And if you use statistics to play with Number, you also get some amazing discoveries, and it's fun to manipulate the input and see what happens.  But nobody is that honest to say how they've manipulated the input.

But I still believe that mathematics is the language of God.  And I still believe that statistics is a way to corrupt the beauty of mathematics.

~Gnowan

I see your point. However, I do use statistics myself, for my own purposes, to gather, analyze, and predict. I enjoy it very much. But, then, I am not selling my information to anybody, and the results that I am looking for almost always concern my own finances or my own activities. I like to run models on different savings plans & estate plans & life expectancies & my own bad health habits.
« Last Edit: March 02, 2016, 04:36:51 am by DIASPORA-1963 »
MARK aka CELLVLANVS MAGVS
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Gnowan

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Re: Pantheism, Panentheism, Greeks, and Math
« Reply #11 on: March 02, 2016, 09:45:25 pm »
Quote from: DIASPORA-1963;187477
I see your point. However, I do use statistics myself, for my own purposes, to gather, analyze, and predict. I enjoy it very much. But, then, I am not selling my information to anybody, and the results that I am looking for almost always concern my own finances or my own activities. I like to run models on different savings plans & estate plans & life expectancies & my own bad health habits.

 
And see, there's the difference.  You're trying to find the truth in the numbers, using all available data to find the answers. not intentionally leaving out data to manipulate the outcome.

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Re: Pantheism, Panentheism, Greeks, and Math
« Reply #12 on: March 03, 2016, 04:55:08 pm »
Quote from: Gnowan;187473
I stand by my statement.  As you said, statistics relies on whatever data people choose to input.  "Garbage in, garbage out."  It can easily be manipulated and most folks are not mathematicians.  And even good input is biased by the researcher, even one with the best of intentions.

Statistics will always be subjective and therefore subject to error and bias.  And there are a lot of folks who have used this to their advantage, because it's "science" and so folks take it as gospel because "the data says...."

I hate that crap.  But if you play with Number you get some amazing discoveries.  And if you use statistics to play with Number, you also get some amazing discoveries, and it's fun to manipulate the input and see what happens.  But nobody is that honest to say how they've manipulated the input.

But I still believe that mathematics is the language of God.  And I still believe that statistics is a way to corrupt the beauty of mathematics.

~Gnowan


I started writing this answer contradicting almost everything you said, but after some more consideration, it may be that by "statistics" you may mean more than "mathematical statistics" (which is what I would usually think when hearing "statistics" in this context).

If in fact by saying "statistics" you are considering more than just the underlying mathematical theory, then comparing statistics and calculus (and mathematics) is arguably a fallacy, since you're comparing something which is greatly rigorous (mathematics) to something that probably isn't.

If on the other hand, if you are actually talking about "mathematical statistics" or something that is both statistics and mathematics, then all the subjectiveness that you are assigning to statistics becomes completely false.

You say that statistics "relies on whatever data people choose to input". This is true for statistics, but also for calculus, and algebra. You do not "manipulate" statistics itself. You manipulate the input. Perhaps a good analogy to this issue is when someone puts oil instead of fuel in a motor intake, then someone else blames the motor for the resulting poor performance, even though the motor did exactly what it was supposed to do.

Statistics is subject to error even without any subjectivity, and in fact, probably deals with the concept of error better than any other theory. After all, you use statistics when you don't know how the variable behaves (deterministically), so an error will always be assumed and taken into account.

I may disagree when you say "statistics is a way to corrupt the beauty of mathematics". Mathematical statistics is in my opinion on the same level as calculus, or algebra; and in fact I consider them equally "pretty". You can use mathematical statistics to objectively quantify probability, confidence and margins. In addition, it can be argued that mathematics, or the "beauty" there-of, is impossible to corrupt due to its nature.

Quote from: DIASPORA-1963;187446
Well, that's a bit unfair. Statistics is a form of calculus (a dumbed-down version), and it does a very good job if it is given good information, so a more accurate way to put what you said would be "Statistics are used to manipulate the masses". But it does not have to be that way, is not that way for anyone who knows statistics. I am never fooled by bad data, poor testing, sloppy results. Neither is any other mathematician.


I will assume you mean mathematical statistics (so that the comparison makes sense). In that case and in my opinion, saying that statistics is a "dumbed-down" version of calculus is both greatly underestimating and somewhat misunderstanding it. In a very approximate manner, calculus deals with change, while statistics deal with expectability. They both seem to have solid foundations. So, in my opinion, not only are both theories good, but also they're different enough that comparisons between the two seem meaningless.

Quote from: Gnowan;187421
Calculus was developed by Newton and Leibniz to discover and explain the universe.

Statistics was created to manipulate the masses.
~Gnowan


You talk as if statistics was a bad thing, but trying to explain the universe without statistics is quite probably impossible. In addition, calculus has its own disadvantages.

DIASPORA-1963

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Re: Pantheism, Panentheism, Greeks, and Math
« Reply #13 on: March 04, 2016, 10:04:47 pm »
Quote from: Ferrous;187538
I started writing this answer contradicting almost everything you said, but after some more consideration, it may be that by "statistics" you may mean more than "mathematical statistics" (which is what I would usually think when hearing "statistics" in this context).

If in fact by saying "statistics" you are considering more than just the underlying mathematical theory, then comparing statistics and calculus (and mathematics) is arguably a fallacy, since you're comparing something which is greatly rigorous (mathematics) to something that probably isn't.

If on the other hand, if you are actually talking about "mathematical statistics" or something that is both statistics and mathematics, then all the subjectiveness that you are assigning to statistics becomes completely false.

You say that statistics "relies on whatever data people choose to input". This is true for statistics, but also for calculus, and algebra. You do not "manipulate" statistics itself. You manipulate the input. Perhaps a good analogy to this issue is when someone puts oil instead of fuel in a motor intake, then someone else blames the motor for the resulting poor performance, even though the motor did exactly what it was supposed to do.

Statistics is subject to error even without any subjectivity, and in fact, probably deals with the concept of error better than any other theory. After all, you use statistics when you don't know how the variable behaves (deterministically), so an error will always be assumed and taken into account.

I may disagree when you say "statistics is a way to corrupt the beauty of mathematics". Mathematical statistics is in my opinion on the same level as calculus, or algebra; and in fact I consider them equally "pretty". You can use mathematical statistics to objectively quantify probability, confidence and margins. In addition, it can be argued that mathematics, or the "beauty" there-of, is impossible to corrupt due to its nature.



I will assume you mean mathematical statistics (so that the comparison makes sense). In that case and in my opinion, saying that statistics is a "dumbed-down" version of calculus is both greatly underestimating and somewhat misunderstanding it. In a very approximate manner, calculus deals with change, while statistics deal with expectability. They both seem to have solid foundations. So, in my opinion, not only are both theories good, but also they're different enough that comparisons between the two seem meaningless.



You talk as if statistics was a bad thing, but trying to explain the universe without statistics is quite probably impossible. In addition, calculus has its own disadvantages.

Let me begin by qualifying - calculus is fairly simple to start ... You must admit that the formulas that are used in statistics are largely derived from calculus - differential calculus, integral calculus, not analysis. It's rather like taking a car and "souping it up" to spec. Neither calculus nor statistics requires an understanding of mathematics that goes beyond intermediate algebra. In neither case, must the student do more than memorize the formulas. True, the professional statistician is quite a different creature from the sophomore college student - but even he/she took that Stat 100 course ... I have won the argument - based on my argument - that Calc 100 should come before & be req  to taking Stat 100.
« Last Edit: March 04, 2016, 10:06:24 pm by DIASPORA-1963 »
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Re: Pantheism, Panentheism, Greeks, and Math
« Reply #14 on: March 10, 2016, 05:03:02 am »
Quote from: Ferrous;187538
You say that statistics "relies on whatever data people choose to input". This is true for statistics, but also for calculus, and algebra. You do not "manipulate" statistics itself. You manipulate the input. Perhaps a good analogy to this issue is when someone puts oil instead of fuel in a motor intake, then someone else blames the motor for the resulting poor performance, even though the motor did exactly what it was supposed to do.

Statistics is subject to error even without any subjectivity, and in fact, probably deals with the concept of error better than any other theory. After all, you use statistics when you don't know how the variable behaves (deterministically), so an error will always be assumed and taken into account.

I may disagree when you say "statistics is a way to corrupt the beauty of mathematics". Mathematical statistics is in my opinion on the same level as calculus, or algebra; and in fact I consider them equally "pretty". You can use mathematical statistics to objectively quantify probability, confidence and margins. In addition, it can be argued that mathematics, or the "beauty" there-of, is impossible to corrupt due to its nature.


Statistics relies too much on the input, which creates an inherent bias.  Statistics uses a lot of man-made rules to determine the probability for an accepted standard deviation and degree of freedom.  Statisticians draw the line in the sand for what is an acceptable level of confidence.

But I still stand by "garbage in, garbage out."  It's too easy to leave out data because it's statistically insignificant.

Quote
You talk as if statistics was a bad thing, but trying to explain the universe without statistics is quite probably impossible. In addition, calculus has its own disadvantages.


I think statistics has it's uses.  It's one way of looking at the world around us, but I believe it relies too heavily on the user in determining the output and interpretation of the output.

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