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Author Topic: Necromancy. It's not Evil  (Read 12792 times)

Nyktipolos

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Re: Necromancy. It's not Evil
« Reply #165 on: December 26, 2012, 11:31:24 pm »
Quote from: pocketsoul1127;86800
There are a lot of pagan paths that frown on the usage of Dark Arts because they are used for harming others. This is why Necromancy is portrayed as "evil" in movies and television.


No, television and movies use necromancy AND several popular pagan paths (and rarely make a difference between the two) because it's shocking, scandalous, and gets them more views, movie tickets, or DVD purchases.

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to be White Magick, it would need to meet those requirements--lack of sacrifice, lack of harm, lack of ill intent.


Requirements according to whom? This sounds an awful like a misinterpretation of the Rede.

Personally, I'm more partial to a certain quote by Victor Anderson:

"White magic is poetry. Black magic is anything that works."
"Though my soul may set in darkness, it will rise in perfect light;
I have loved the stars too fondly to be fearful of the night." - Sarah Williams
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Fausta

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Re: Necromancy. It's not Evil
« Reply #166 on: December 27, 2012, 12:14:24 am »
Quote from: Nyktipolos;86982
"White magic is poetry. Black magic is anything that works."


There's also "White magic is what I do. Black magic is what everybody else does." (Picked up somewhere along the line.) :D:

Valentine

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Re: Necromancy. It's not Evil
« Reply #167 on: December 27, 2012, 12:47:07 am »
Quote from: pocketsoul1127;86800
I honestly wasn't sure if I was going to post a reply to this or not, but after reading through all fifteen pages of responses I think I'm going to share my views.

Necromancy is considered a Dark Art. There are a lot of pagan paths that frown on the usage of Dark Arts because they are used for harming others. This is why Necromancy is portrayed as "evil" in movies and television.

It is dark magick--there is no getting away from that fact. It is used to curse people in harmful manners, such as cursing them with blindness, illness, or other physical/mental harm.

Now, according to my own research Necromancy draws those people who are interested in the power to dominant and subjugate spirits to his/her will. This doesn't come without sacrifice--in fact, the Death Essence that Necromancers use is so draining that after long-term exposure to it makes them physically ill. In the end, they become little more than walking skeletons themselves.

And the only way they regain any semblance of health is to drain other living creatures of their life energies--thus giving birth to what's commonly known as "psychic vampires."

So, to sum up, Necromancy is shown as a Dark Art because it *is* a dark art. It's a magick that requires great personal sacrifice and pain to embark on and the draw to it is caused by the connection of life and death with power. Necromancers are power-seekers who sacrifice everything in order to gain control over the world of the dead.

For the majority of pagans (at least the ones I know), Dark Arts violate the very heart of their religion, which centers around love, free will, and respect for oneself and others.

Necromancy runs counter to that, suggesting that sacrifice, power, and domination is the correct methodology of life.

I have seen absolutely no research to suggest that Necromancy doesn't require sacrifice or that it can be done without harming others--to be White Magick, it would need to meet those requirements--lack of sacrifice, lack of harm, lack of ill intent.

It doesn't meet those requirements and nothing in this thread has suggested to me that there can be proof found anywhere that Necromancy is a Good type of magick to practice for anyone who follows a religious path centered around love and respect for all things.

 
Okay, so, I'm a necromancer.  
(Not, it bears clarifying, in the same way that I am a mermaid, which is to say, "facetiously, and for the purpose of humor.")  
That is: I do magic and religious practice that is concerned with, focused on, and in relationship with death and the dead.  I do this in part because of a religious background as an ancestor venerator, which, as mentioned a couple posts ago, is an honorable, positive, family-affirming thing to do in many cultures, including mine.  I do death work.  I have walked in dead places, by dead roads, with dead companions.  It is a nice homey place for me to go sometimes, and other times nervous, dangerous business, sort of like the daylight and the living and all of that.

In my world, death is not an evil, and the dead are not more wicked than the living, and holding truck with them, or having conversations with them, or employing or being employed by them is--well, dark, I suppose, in the way that the night is, and space, and the underground, and the deep sea, and lots of other things that are important to the universe and kind of basic to things and not particularly evil--and putting a capital D on Dark only says to me that the person doing it is probably pretty nervous about a whole lot of the world.

Death is an inevitability and a universal law, and I feel it is sensible to be acquainted with somewhere I will certainly go, and with its residents and ministers.  Some of the best people I know are dead, and some of the kindest, loveliest, most hospitable and honorable Powers in this world are psychopomps, deathbringers, and afterworld authorities.  It doesn't make me cuddle-buddies with Voldemort.  Frankly, as a responsible, ethical necromancer, I turn a much unfriendlier eye toward those who abuse the dead than anyone not acquainted with them.

To sum up:  I am a necromancer, but seriously, barring a tapeworm or cancer, I'm never fitting into a size 10 dress again, and my cadaverous doomy self is filling out my bra cups just fine, thanks.  When I become a horrific undead parody of life, shambling about sucking decent white witches dry to feed my terrible hungers, I will, being a nice old-fashioned sort of girl, let y'all know.
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EJay

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Re: Necromancy. It's not Evil
« Reply #168 on: December 27, 2012, 06:11:46 am »
Quote from: Valentine;86999
Okay, so, I'm a necromancer.  
 
That is: I do magic and religious practice that is concerned with, focused on, and in relationship with death and the dead.  I do this in part because of a religious background as an ancestor venerator, which, as mentioned a couple posts ago, is an honorable, positive, family-affirming thing to do in many cultures, including mine.  I do death work.  I have walked in dead places, by dead roads, with dead companions.  It is a nice homey place for me to go sometimes, and other times nervous, dangerous business, sort of like the daylight and the living and all of that.

In my world, death is not an evil, and the dead are not more wicked than the living, and holding truck with them, or having conversations with them, or employing or being employed by them is--well, dark, I suppose, in the way that the night is, and space, and the underground, and the deep sea, and lots of other things that are important to the universe and kind of basic to things and not particularly evil--and putting a capital D on Dark only says to me that the person doing it is probably pretty nervous about a whole lot of the world.

 
I don't know a whole lot about necromancy--my simple understanding is that it's a way of divination by communing with the dead.

As such, I have no issues with working with the dead, IF they're willing participants.

What I find ironic is that I agreed with the OP's original title, that necromancy isn't evil, if it included my above proviso (which I don't know that it does).  However, the OP then started talking about using spirits to inflict harm to others and to bind spirits to stones and buying and selling them on EBay.

Even if the OP is playing in fantasy land, that very idea--to me--is evil.  Working with the dead is all well and good; coercing and enslaving the dead, not so much.

Just ask Arthas Menethil how that all worked out. :)
If you understand, things are just as they are.  If you do not understand, things are just as they are.

Valentine

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Re: Necromancy. It's not Evil
« Reply #169 on: December 27, 2012, 06:31:24 am »
Quote from: EJay;87047

Even if the OP is playing in fantasy land, that very idea--to me--is evil.  Working with the dead is all well and good; coercing and enslaving the dead, not so much.

 
Yeah, I'm inclined to see it much as I see coercing and enslaving the living--as a profound moral violation deserving of swift and forceful censure.
"Let be be finale of seem." - Wallace Stevens, "The Emperor of Ice-Cream"
"There isn't a way things should be.  There's just what happens, and what we do."
- Terry Pratchett, "A Hat Full of Sky"

EJay

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Re: Necromancy. It's not Evil
« Reply #170 on: December 27, 2012, 07:38:33 am »
Quote from: Valentine;87048
Yeah, I'm inclined to see it much as I see coercing and enslaving the living--as a profound moral violation deserving of swift and forceful censure.

 
Agreed.
If you understand, things are just as they are.  If you do not understand, things are just as they are.

Aspiria

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Necromancy. It's not Evil
« Reply #171 on: December 27, 2012, 08:07:28 pm »
Quote from: EJay;87047
I don't know a whole lot about necromancy--my simple understanding is that it's a way of divination by communing with the dead.

As such, I have no issues with working with the dead, IF they're willing participants.

What I find ironic is that I agreed with the OP's original title, that necromancy isn't evil, if it included my above proviso (which I don't know that it does).  However, the OP then started talking about using spirits to inflict harm to others and to bind spirits to stones and buying and selling them on EBay.

Even if the OP is playing in fantasy land, that very idea--to me--is evil.  Working with the dead is all well and good; coercing and enslaving the dead, not so much.

Just ask Arthas Menethil how that all worked out. :)

Arthas Menathil is Wow character and That's it?

Nyktipolos

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Re: Necromancy. It's not Evil
« Reply #172 on: December 27, 2012, 11:26:27 pm »
Quote from: Aspiria;87197
Arthas Menathil is Wow character and That's it?

 
Arthas attempts to enslave and control the dead. He eventually becomes corrupted, possessed, loses pretty much everyone he loves (whether through them dying or him losing their friendship/loyalty), loses his own *soul* to an evil sword*, and is slain for his crimes.

I believe EJay was referencing Arthas/the Lich King because of his comment that even in fantasy, coercing and controlling the dead never ends well. :)


(* Which personally makes me believe that it retconned the previous idea that Arthas and Ner'zhul became one being and Arthas-the-human ceased to exist. Which well... is an alternative. You either live long enough to see yourself become the villain become one with the ancient soul of a demon-worshipping orc, or have your soul captured along with the thousands of souls you had slain into your sword until it's broken, and you're returned to yourself completely sane as you die to talk with your father as he gives you the sobering truth that one lives forever/no king rules forever.

... /nerd hat)
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I have loved the stars too fondly to be fearful of the night." - Sarah Williams
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Sage

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Re: Necromancy. It's not Evil
« Reply #173 on: December 27, 2012, 11:33:23 pm »
Quote from: Nyktipolos;87251

... /nerd hat)

 
Oh please, I just spent most of today catching up on my Tamrielic lore to better appreciate my escapades in Cyrodiil and Skyrim. You're among friends.
Maker, though the darkness comes upon me,
I shall embrace the light. I shall weather the storm.
I shall endure.
What you have created, no one can tear asunder.

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Shine

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Re: Necromancy. It's not Evil
« Reply #174 on: December 28, 2012, 12:13:41 am »
Quote from: Sage;87253
Oh please, I just spent most of today catching up on my Tamrielic lore to better appreciate my escapades in Cyrodiil and Skyrim. You're among friends.

 
Reading this response was a bit like reading Koine. :p

I spent half the day implementing the Luhn checksum algorithm. Take THAT. /nerdofadifferentstripe
Leave your darkness with me, and I will make you shine.

Sage

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Re: Necromancy. It's not Evil
« Reply #175 on: December 28, 2012, 12:40:28 am »
Quote from: Shine;87254
Reading this response was a bit like reading Koine. :p


Sorry, my three semesters were in Classical Greek. I got my hands on bits of the New Testament but I really never had much exposure (or interest) in Koine. I just wanted to read Homer and Plato, not about Jesus! D:

Quote
I spent half the day implementing the Luhn checksum algorithm. Take THAT. /nerdofadifferentstripe


I have no idea what that is. I assume it's turning unicorn farts into pure gold.
Maker, though the darkness comes upon me,
I shall embrace the light. I shall weather the storm.
I shall endure.
What you have created, no one can tear asunder.

-Canticle of Trials 1:10

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Shine

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Re: Necromancy. It's not Evil
« Reply #176 on: December 28, 2012, 01:30:08 am »
Quote from: Sage;87256
I have no idea what that is. I assume it's turning unicorn farts into pure gold.

 
If only, lol.

It's basically meant to validate numbers, like credit card numbers and stuff like that.
Leave your darkness with me, and I will make you shine.

EJay

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Re: Necromancy. It's not Evil
« Reply #177 on: December 28, 2012, 02:35:08 am »
Quote from: Nyktipolos;87251
Arthas attempts to enslave and control the dead. He eventually becomes corrupted, possessed, loses pretty much everyone he loves (whether through them dying or him losing their friendship/loyalty), loses his own *soul* to an evil sword*, and is slain for his crimes.

I believe EJay was referencing Arthas/the Lich King because of his comment that even in fantasy, coercing and controlling the dead never ends well. :)


(* Which personally makes me believe that it retconned the previous idea that Arthas and Ner'zhul became one being and Arthas-the-human ceased to exist. Which well... is an alternative. You either live long enough to see yourself become the villain become one with the ancient soul of a demon-worshipping orc, or have your soul captured along with the thousands of souls you had slain into your sword until it's broken, and you're returned to yourself completely sane as you die to talk with your father as he gives you the sobering truth that one lives forever/no king rules forever.

... /nerd hat)


Arthas believed he was doing good, but sold his soul for "powah" and to be reunited with his dead horse.  He started his path into necromancy for a horse that he accidentally rode to its death, then wound up killing his father and slaughtering his people.

And some of those that he coerced from their grave weren't really happy with him.  Sylvanas was one.

I know it's only a game and i'm wearing my nerd hat as well, but I think it's a theme that resonates.

I don't think the dead like being jacked any more than the living do.  And because they're dead, the rules are different.  Dangerously different.  Deadly different.
If you understand, things are just as they are.  If you do not understand, things are just as they are.

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Re: Necromancy. It's not Evil
« Reply #178 on: December 30, 2012, 03:38:54 pm »
Quote from: RandallS;86851
"Dark Art?" Fortunately, I got an "O" in my DADA Newt. More seriously, classifying magic as Dark or Light has always seemed arbitrary (and somewhat silly) to me.

 
Apparently you're not the only person who thought it sounded like Harry Potter:

http://alt-sinistra.dreamwidth.org/40553.html?thread=338025#cmt338025

(For context, this is from a Harry Potter alternate universe game....)
as the water grinds the stone
we rise and fall
as our ashes turn to dust
we shine like stars    - Covenant, "Bullet"

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Re: Necromancy. It's not Evil
« Reply #179 on: December 30, 2012, 06:19:02 pm »
Quote from: Darkhawk;88045
http://alt-sinistra.dreamwidth.org/40553.html?thread=338025#cmt338025

(For context, this is from a Harry Potter alternate universe game....)

::Snort:: I'm glad to know I wasn't the only person who though the whole death essence stuff would have fit right in the HP universe.
Randall
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