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Author Topic: Law of Noncontradiction among the various faiths?  (Read 3180 times)

Charis

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Law of Noncontradiction among the various faiths?
« on: September 16, 2013, 07:07:16 pm »
I was just wondering.... I am someone who, while I'm not entirely sure where the right and wrongs ARE sometimes, I do believe correct and incorrect do exist on most issues of fact.  Where beliefs are mutually exclusive, I tend to believe either one of them is correct or both of them are at least partially, if not totally, incorrect.  

Regardless of the faith or the religion, Pagan or Monotheistic, certain facts must come into play at some point (so-and-so religion says xyz is true, but this other faith says it's not true at all). There will be points of utter contradiction between all the religions.  When this happens, do we say everyone's right or that some are wrong or do we turn the statements of fact into feelings or what do we do?  

Because when two statements of alleged fact are found to be mutually exclusive, something has to give.... we can't just give up on logic or fact or whatever, can we?

As an example... Some will say the Christian and Muslim God are one and the same; others will say they're different (please don't go into that debate... it gets sticky every time I see one of those, and I'll just get a headache.  I'm only using it as one example).  Some will say one thing and some will say others, both claiming it to be factual.  If the two positions cannot both be true at the same time in the same sense, then how is this normally processed? Do we say oh well? Do we say let's just call it all feelings instead? What do we do?

Asch

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Re: Law of Noncontradiction among the various faiths?
« Reply #1 on: September 16, 2013, 07:16:05 pm »
Quote from: Charis;121951
I was just wondering.... I am someone who, while I'm not entirely sure where the right and wrongs ARE sometimes, I do believe correct and incorrect do exist on most issues of fact.  Where beliefs are mutually exclusive, I tend to believe either one of them is correct or both of them are at least partially, if not totally, incorrect.  

Regardless of the faith or the religion, Pagan or Monotheistic, certain facts must come into play at some point (so-and-so religion says xyz is true, but this other faith says it's not true at all). There will be points of utter contradiction between all the religions.  When this happens, do we say everyone's right or that some are wrong or do we turn the statements of fact into feelings or what do we do?  

Because when two statements of alleged fact are found to be mutually exclusive, something has to give.... we can't just give up on logic or fact or whatever, can we?

As an example... Some will say the Christian and Muslim God are one and the same; others will say they're different (please don't go into that debate... it gets sticky every time I see one of those, and I'll just get a headache.  I'm only using it as one example).  Some will say one thing and some will say others, both claiming it to be factual.  If the two positions cannot both be true at the same time in the same sense, then how is this normally processed? Do we say oh well? Do we say let's just call it all feelings instead? What do we do?

 
Well the problem with your example is that it assumes there is a discrete 'factual' answer. Either that deity is or is not the same being for both faiths.

Since we can not absolutely determine that.... there's no real contradiction to my mind.

Darkhawk

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Re: Law of Noncontradiction among the various faiths?
« Reply #2 on: September 16, 2013, 07:47:45 pm »
Quote from: Charis;121951
Regardless of the faith or the religion, Pagan or Monotheistic, certain facts must come into play at some point


No.  Religion does not deal in facts.
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mlr52

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Re: Law of Noncontradiction among the various faiths?
« Reply #3 on: September 16, 2013, 08:38:46 pm »
Quote from: Charis;121951

 
Because when two statements of alleged fact are found to be mutually exclusive, something has to give.... we can't just give up on logic or fact or whatever, can we?

 

 
A fact is only true until the inquiry goes beyond it.  Fact a bar of metal is solid, fact it is made of molecules, fact molecules are made of atoms (smallest particle known to man).  OPPs atoms are made of electrons, neutrons,  and protons. and guest what there is space between them, and we have not gotten to quantum physics.  

Faith is a belief which a person accepts as true for themselves, the problem occurs when that belief is forced on others.
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Gilbride

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Re: Law of Noncontradiction among the various faiths?
« Reply #4 on: September 16, 2013, 08:39:51 pm »
Quote from: Charis;121951
I was just wondering.... I am someone who, while I'm not entirely sure where the right and wrongs ARE sometimes, I do believe correct and incorrect do exist on most issues of fact.


Or- certain Truths (not facts) are so close to incomprehensible that any statement about them is bound to be both true and false at the same time. In which case you simply pick the one that works for you. The one that allows you to get closer to experiencing that incomprehensible truth for yourself.

RandallS

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Re: Law of Noncontradiction among the various faiths?
« Reply #5 on: September 16, 2013, 08:47:54 pm »
Quote from: Charis;121951
As an example... Some will say the Christian and Muslim God are one and the same; others will say they're different (please don't go into that debate... it gets sticky every time I see one of those, and I'll just get a headache.  I'm only using it as one example).

Claims like these are not really "factual" claims. Neither claim can be demonstrated to be true or false. They are claims about beliefs, not claims about facts: even if the people making the claim believe that what they are stating is fact.

Quote
Some will say one thing and some will say others, both claiming it to be factual.  If the two positions cannot both be true at the same time in the same sense, then how is this normally processed?

Even things that can be established as fact are not necessarily true from all frames of reference. The "bar of metal" mlr52 mentioned is a good example. It is a fact that a bar of metal is solid. It's also a fact that a solid bar of metal is mostly empty space. It all depends on your frame of reference: in this case whether you are a human or a electron.
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Charis

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Re: Law of Noncontradiction among the various faiths?
« Reply #6 on: September 16, 2013, 09:01:08 pm »
Quote from: RandallS;121976
Claims like these are not really "factual" claims. Neither claim can be demonstrated to be true or false. They are claims about beliefs, not claims about facts: even if the people making the claim believe that what they are stating is fact.



Even things that can be established as fact are not necessarily true from all frames of reference. The "bar of metal" mlr52 mentioned is a good example. It is a fact that a bar of metal is solid. It's also a fact that a solid bar of metal is mostly empty space. It all depends on your frame of reference: in this case whether you are a human or a electron.


Thank you all for your responses so far!  I was just wondering what they were.  Sorry if the question is a bit too controversial or poorly worded.

Asch

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Re: Law of Noncontradiction among the various faiths?
« Reply #7 on: September 16, 2013, 09:13:54 pm »
Quote from: Charis;121985
Thank you all for your responses so far!  I was just wondering what they were.  Sorry if the question is a bit too controversial or poorly worded.

 
It's not controversial or poorly worded it just isn't applicable to religion as religion is built at some point on faith and personal experience neither of which is fact dependent.

Basically the law doesn't apply.

Charis

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Re: Law of Noncontradiction among the various faiths?
« Reply #8 on: September 16, 2013, 09:21:03 pm »
Quote from: RandallS;121976
Claims like these are not really "factual" claims. Neither claim can be demonstrated to be true or false. They are claims about beliefs, not claims about facts: even if the people making the claim believe that what they are stating is fact


Whoops, I should probably clarify what I'm meaning when I say a "factual" claim.   I'm not sure if I can articulate it very well, so forgive me if I kinda.... well... flop.  :P

I don't mean a claim that is already determined to be based on established fact, but a claim that is a statement of a certain thing being objectively factual (as opposed to opinion).... ugh, that didn't even make sense.

uh....  Something more objective than subjective.

Something like "this rabbit is warm-blooded" "no, this rabbit is not warm-blooded."  Those two statements are mutually exclusive.  But neither of these statements are statements of opinion... they are both claims to fact.  I guess that's the word I'm going for. Claims. One of those claims is correct and one is incorrect (or both are partially correct/incorrect), even if we're not sure which.

And yes, I know that some some claims can be verified and some cannot using established scientific fact and whatnot.  That's not quite the discussion I'm referring to here, though it's certainly very closely related.

What I'm talking about is this.... when two schools of thought/faith make mutually exclusive claims (i.e. "x works" and "x doesn't work" under the same conditions at the same time), what do we do mentally when this occurs?

Charis

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Re: Law of Noncontradiction among the various faiths?
« Reply #9 on: September 16, 2013, 09:27:21 pm »
Quote from: Asch;121990
It's not controversial or poorly worded it just isn't applicable to religion as religion is built at some point on faith and personal experience neither of which is fact dependent.

Basically the law doesn't apply.


I guess I'm a little different in that regard.  For me, I have faith based on fact.  I am having more faith in the accuracy of Divination based on the fact of what I have seen so far.  It is a fact that of the 6 or so predictions it has given me so far, it has had a 100% success rate.  Based on it's growing reliability, my faith in Divination is growing.

My faith in our family doctor had dropped to nearly nil, given the fact that he has nearly caused the death of 2 family members and that others are giving similar accounts.  Granted, I must have faith that these other accounts are even accurate, but there are facts in records somewhere to either confirm or deny those claims... I just don't know what the facts are.   lol

Charis

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Re: Law of Noncontradiction among the various faiths?
« Reply #10 on: September 16, 2013, 09:36:13 pm »
Quote from: Charis;121997
I guess I'm a little different in that regard.  For me, I have faith based on fact.  I am having more faith in the accuracy of Divination based on the fact of what I have seen so far.  It is a fact that of the 6 or so predictions it has given me so far, it has had a 100% success rate.  Based on it's growing reliability, my faith in Divination is growing.

My faith in our family doctor had dropped to nearly nil, given the fact that he has nearly caused the death of 2 family members and that others are giving similar accounts.  Granted, I must have faith that these other accounts are even accurate, but there are facts in records somewhere to either confirm or deny those claims... I just don't know what the facts are.   lol

yes, I realize I'm quoting myself here.... I just kinda hit the button.

But there are claims of spirit beings, whether they are gods, angels, spirits of the dead or whatever.  These beings either do or do not exist.  
Is there an answer to that? Yes.

Do we know what that answer is? Some do and some don't.


What if george says they exist and harry says they don't?  Well they either exist or they don't.  One is correct.  But when we see mutually exclusive claims (not getting into the merits of said claim), what do we do with it?
« Last Edit: September 16, 2013, 09:38:03 pm by Charis »

beachglass

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Re: Law of Noncontradiction among the various faiths?
« Reply #11 on: September 16, 2013, 09:47:58 pm »
Quote from: Charis;121999
What if george says they exist and harry says they don't?  Well they either exist or they don't.  One is correct.  But when we see such mutually exclusive claims (not getting into the merits of said claim), what do we do with it?

 
Perhaps one could consider them both to be correct. A little like the Schrödinger's cat thought experiment, where a cat is hidden in a box that also contains a lethal device with a random trigger.  If we can't look in the box, and both probabilities are equally possible, the cat could be considered both dead and alive at the same time. Since we can never "look in the box" to see if George's spirit beings exist, for practical purposes they both do and do not exist.

This can be a fine solution: for example in George and Harry's case, each can believe what suits him best, and just agree to disagree.
"The further we go, and older we grow, the more we know, the less we show."  ~ Robert Smith

Charis

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Re: Law of Noncontradiction among the various faiths?
« Reply #12 on: September 16, 2013, 09:51:49 pm »
Quote from: beachglass;122004
Perhaps one could consider them both to be correct. A little like the Schrödinger's cat thought experiment, where a cat is hidden in a box that also contains a lethal device with a random trigger.  If we can't look in the box, and both probabilities are equally possible, the cat could be considered both dead and alive at the same time. Since we can never "look in the box" to see if George's spirit beings exist, for practical purposes they both do and do not exist.

This can be a fine solution: for example in George and Harry's case, each can believe what suits him best, and just agree to disagree.

ooooooo!  :D

never heard of the cat thought experiment.  I like it.  xD
« Last Edit: September 16, 2013, 09:57:16 pm by Charis »

Darkhawk

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Re: Law of Noncontradiction among the various faiths?
« Reply #13 on: September 16, 2013, 10:03:03 pm »
Quote from: Charis;121997
I guess I'm a little different in that regard.  For me, I have faith based on fact.

 
There exist no knowable facts about the nature of the gods.  All people have are theories and beliefs.  Those theories and beliefs are tested by whether they work for individual people, or not.  Since their function for individual people rests entirely in the subjective realms, what works for one person is not going to be reliable in judging what will work for another.  (Though additional data can help find matches.)
as the water grinds the stone
we rise and fall
as our ashes turn to dust
we shine like stars    - Covenant, "Bullet"

Charis

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Re: Law of Noncontradiction among the various faiths?
« Reply #14 on: September 16, 2013, 10:19:11 pm »
Quote from: Darkhawk;122013
There exist no knowable facts about the nature of the gods.  All people have are theories and beliefs.  Those theories and beliefs are tested by whether they work for individual people, or not.  Since their function for individual people rests entirely in the subjective realms, what works for one person is not going to be reliable in judging what will work for another.  (Though additional data can help find matches.)


Like..... a dating service?  :D   xD

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