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Author Topic: Is a curse ever justified?  (Read 5264 times)

Allaya

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Re: Is a curse ever justified?
« Reply #60 on: April 16, 2014, 10:16:36 am »
Quote from: MattyG;145239
If your curses can't actually change the system or improve the people in the system, why do you focus your energy on individuals?


Why is abdominal surgery done via keyhole procedure rather than slitting open the belly from one hipbone to the other*?

Precision, fewer complications, shorter recovery time, better outcomes for the people involved, and it is less disruptive for fewer people in terms of providing care.

 
*excepting, of course, extraordinary circumstances or patient contraindications

--//--


Completely unrelated, but as someone who is hovering somewhere between pantheist and animist, it has been interesting to watch the discussion mainly taking place from what appears to be a hardish polytheist perspective. The notion of it being problematic to call for Justice from one god/dess over another and so on is something that I can understand, but not personally relate to.

I have not had cause to curse as of yet, but the way I perceive doing such a thing would essentially be submitting a spiritual Trouble Ticket or Bug Report to the Divine Cosmos. "Hey, there is a problem here that I've run into that might need sorting out. I can't tell if it's a bug or a feature, so I thought I'd point it out. Thanks for your time, Cosmos! Sincerely, Me."

I'm unsure what my subsequent culpability/liability would be from doing that, however. As I said, I have not had cause to curse as of yet and have not devoted much thought to the subject.
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Re: Is a curse ever justified?
« Reply #61 on: April 16, 2014, 11:01:44 pm »
Quote from: Allaya;145352
Why is abdominal surgery done via keyhole procedure rather than slitting open the belly from one hipbone to the other*?

Precision, fewer complications, shorter recovery time, better outcomes for the people involved, and it is less disruptive for fewer people in terms of providing care.

 
I love this metaphor so much.
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Siren

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Re: Is a curse ever justified?
« Reply #62 on: April 17, 2014, 10:28:23 am »
Quote from: Valentine;145298
I think you're displaying a fundamental misunderstanding, here.  Cursing someone, for me, doesn't feel good, and is often costly.  The scenario I talked about earlier--the people who will just hurt other people over and over and over and can't be stopped by social pressure or the law because they have power in those systems--I'm not talking about punitive punishment, like "I want to make them hurt"--that can feel satisfying for a moment but it doesn't solve the problem.  I'm talking about the basic goal of preventing them from hurting any more people.

I live in a world where if I physically or legally go after someone who keeps hurting my loved ones, probably I will go to jail and they will stay free and keep hurting people.  If it were about feeling good as a punisher, I'd just go hit that person anyway.  My goal is removing their ability to hurt other people, not "vengeance."

I am talking about real actual people I have met.  I'm talking about the guy who looked across a table at me and admitted he kept a long list of the women he'd violated including at gunpoint because he already knew he'd manipulated the system effectively enough to get off scot-free, made it plain he was going to keep doing it, and smiled while he talked about it so casually it was like he was talking about popping down to the grocery store for eggs.  I don't know if anyone is "evil" and I don't care--I care that that is a person who will keep hurting others in the most profound ways possible until someone makes him stop.

I'm sorry, but when the choice is somehow doing an effective protective spell on everyone that person will ever meet, somehow instantly reforming our legal and police system, somehow developing and then getting access to some kind of theoretical coercive brain surgery, or doing something to contain, disable, or take out that one person who is continually raping and abusing people and altering the courses of dozens of lives?  

It's not about feeling like a badass.  It's about, my vaunted moral purity is not worth sitting back while that happens, or going, "Well, the Gods have a plan."  Maybe sometimes the Gods' plan is us getting up and actually acting in the world.  What is magic for?

 
Good post.

I curse hardly, hardly ever, because in my beliefs and experience, casting any kind of magic on a particular person kind of...tangles you up with them. Not in a mathematically neat, Rule of Three sort of way, but I do think it links your energy and it does not feel good at all to be tangled up with the energy of an awful person and the energy of cursing itself.

So for me, the question is, is it worth it in this particular case? So in a case like the one you mention, where lots of lives beyond mine are at stake, I might well find it worth it; meanwhile, I usually find it not-worth-it in the case of people I'm mad at for purely personal reasons (like an ex who's a jerk but not an abuser). I don't want to be tangled up with them, I want them out of my life, not further in.

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Re: Is a curse ever justified?
« Reply #63 on: April 18, 2014, 02:10:49 pm »
Quote from: Siren;145431
Good post.

I curse hardly, hardly ever, because in my beliefs and experience, casting any kind of magic on a particular person kind of...tangles you up with them. Not in a mathematically neat, Rule of Three sort of way, but I do think it links your energy and it does not feel good at all to be tangled up with the energy of an awful person and the energy of cursing itself.

So for me, the question is, is it worth it in this particular case? So in a case like the one you mention, where lots of lives beyond mine are at stake, I might well find it worth it; meanwhile, I usually find it not-worth-it in the case of people I'm mad at for purely personal reasons (like an ex who's a jerk but not an abuser). I don't want to be tangled up with them, I want them out of my life, not further in.

 
Word.  I say all this and the times I've ever attempted to curse someone beyond one of those little bindings or prayers that justice be done is a little wee handful.  There are costs to this kind of thing, and it's always a cost-benefit analysis of whether or not it's worth it.  This is why I find the notion of it being automatically selfish a little silly--it's not something I'd really do on my own behalf, but only when the cost to me is worth balancing against the cost to others if I don't do the working.
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ccardinot

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Re: Is a curse ever justified?
« Reply #64 on: April 18, 2014, 10:33:21 pm »
Quote from: Valentine;145298
 The scenario I talked about earlier--the people who will just hurt other people over and over and over and can't be stopped by social pressure or the law because they have power in those systems--I'm not talking about punitive punishment, like "I want to make them hurt"--that can feel satisfying for a moment but it doesn't solve the problem.  I'm talking about the basic goal of preventing them from hurting any more people.

I live in a world where if I physically or legally go after someone who keeps hurting my loved ones, probably I will go to jail and they will stay free and keep hurting people.  If it were about feeling good as a punisher, I'd just go hit that person anyway.  My goal is removing their ability to hurt other people, not "vengeance."

I am talking about real actual people I have met.  I'm talking about the guy who looked across a table at me and admitted he kept a long list of the women he'd violated including at gunpoint because he already knew he'd manipulated the system effectively enough to get off scot-free, made it plain he was going to keep doing it, and smiled while he talked about it so casually it was like he was talking about popping down to the grocery store for eggs.  I don't know if anyone is "evil" and I don't care--I care that that is a person who will keep hurting others in the most profound ways possible until someone makes him stop.

I'm sorry, but when the choice is somehow doing an effective protective spell on everyone that person will ever meet, somehow instantly reforming our legal and police system, somehow developing and then getting access to some kind of theoretical coercive brain surgery, or doing something to contain, disable, or take out that one person who is continually raping and abusing people and altering the courses of dozens of lives?  

It's not about feeling like a badass.  It's about, my vaunted moral purity is not worth sitting back while that happens, or going, "Well, the Gods have a plan."  Maybe sometimes the Gods' plan is us getting up and actually acting in the world.  What is magic for?

Couldn't agree more. You see, when I was learning about the Craft, I have learned that the action of cursing is not a playtoy, but there is no guilt or shame if used properly, so, in those grounds, yes, a curse is justifiable. As any given magical action, if done in the right way, for the right reasons, no bad consequences should be feared.

If I can stop a person or group of people from doing harm upon a defenseless population using solely my words, by all means I am going to. If words are ignored, and I can use my hands without harming myself, have no doubt in your heart, that's for sure to be done.

But, if no word or action seem to bring forth the results I want, won't even blink a second time before I cast the most suitable spell I can find on my book for the situation be it a curse or not.
« Last Edit: April 19, 2014, 07:24:53 pm by SunflowerP »

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Re: Is a curse ever justified?
« Reply #65 on: April 19, 2014, 07:32:31 pm »
Quote from: ccardinot;145600


 
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generic response

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Re: Is a curse ever justified?
« Reply #66 on: April 26, 2014, 01:56:15 am »
Quote from: anonymus;142713
I've been thinking recently about the idea of a curse and how a some people seem to think it is wrong or that it is dangerous because it could blow back at you, essentially it is like a loaded gun only a lot harder to aim. But is there ever a situation where using one would be justified? For example I set up some sort of big major ritual to pop someone's aorta, let's say a Nero, Hitler, Stalin, or any of the Kims; would that justified? Or would I be headed toward the Darkside? Any thoughts opinions?

disclaimer: This discussion is strictly a theoretical ethics debate

 
As a Discordian I don't believe in curses. When Eris started the Trojan war she did so with a physical apple... not a curse. And as someone who doesn't believe in an afterlife or karma, I think that it's your personal responsibility to handle your business unless you are content to let your adversaries win one over on you. Do what makes you happy. That's ultimately what matters. I prefer trickery and sabotage. :ange:

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Re: Is a curse ever justified?
« Reply #67 on: April 27, 2014, 01:35:29 am »
Quote from: generic response;146226
As a Discordian I don't believe in curses.

 
Not even the Turkey Curse?
as the water grinds the stone
we rise and fall
as our ashes turn to dust
we shine like stars    - Covenant, "Bullet"

generic response

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Re: Is a curse ever justified?
« Reply #68 on: April 27, 2014, 04:29:07 am »
Quote from: Darkhawk;146276
Not even the Turkey Curse?

 
I don't really consider that the same kind of curse that the original poster is referring to. It kind of falls in line with what I'm talking about though. I have what I call a Bad News pocket. It has a phillips and flathead screwdriver, a squeeze bottle of Liquid @$$ (exactly what you think it is), some black paint, a mini paint brush, gorilla glue, tube of vaseline, etc. I know what you're thinking, but I very rarely use it. I save it for the people who are *extra special* in my life. :ange:

yewberry

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Re: Is a curse ever justified?
« Reply #69 on: April 27, 2014, 05:18:51 am »
Quote from: generic response;146284
I know what you're thinking

 
You probably don't, actually.

Brina

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Re: Is a curse ever justified?
« Reply #70 on: April 27, 2014, 10:37:46 am »
Quote from: generic response;146284
I know what you're thinking,

 
Neat trick!  Where'd you pick up that level of psychic skill?
as the water grinds the stone
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Re: Is a curse ever justified?
« Reply #71 on: April 28, 2014, 01:57:20 pm »
Quote from: generic response;146284
Liquid @$$ (exactly what you think it is)

 
Axe body spray?
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yewberry

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Re: Is a curse ever justified?
« Reply #72 on: April 28, 2014, 11:51:15 pm »
Quote from: Valentine;146378
Axe body spray?


Yeah.  Especially when you get on a bus with it.

Brina

generic response

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Re: Is a curse ever justified?
« Reply #73 on: April 29, 2014, 12:12:28 am »
Quote from: Darkhawk;146296
Neat trick!  Where'd you pick up that level of psychic skill?

 
I've consulted my pineal gland.

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Re: Is a curse ever justified?
« Reply #74 on: April 29, 2014, 12:43:13 am »
Quote from: generic response;146405
I've consulted my pineal gland.

 
Mine doesn't do mindreading, it just makes my brain glow.

For mindreading I have to actually communicate.
as the water grinds the stone
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we shine like stars    - Covenant, "Bullet"

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