How Would You Prove Your God?

[Materialist]

Well, just got the summer issue of Skeptic magazine (volume 19, number 2). In it is contained a three-page article entitled "In Defense of Soft Theism," by Miklos Jako, a retired teacher who has been trying to reconcile theists and atheists for the past 45 years. This article is meant to be his solution to the problem, in which he tries to convince atheists of the certainty of his god's probable existence. I guess his view could be called "hard agnosticism."

After reading it I seriously considered vomiting (might still), or returning the magazine, asking how this little nugget of bilge got passed the editor. Anyway, this is the god that Mr. Jako does not worship:

1. is equally semi-benevolent and semi-malevolent
2. cares for, and is cruel to, humans in an intangible way for it does not intervene with our lives
3. is utterly devoid of physical matter and is completely disconnected from the universe and thus exists out of the bounds of the laws of nature, physics, and anything resembling logic
4. for these reasons, the supreme being cannot be communicated with in any way, thereby proving that religion is pointless

How does he prove his god exists? In three simple ways that should win over anyone with half a rational brain:

1. the existence of the universe requires it to have been created by a creator. (One wonders, though, how a being that is devoid of, and disconnected from, matter can do this.)
2. life cannot evolve from pre-biotic cells, it must come from a living being. (Again, one wonders how a non-physical being can be "alive," let alone produce life.)
3. the indefinable life and death forces exist. Without god energizing all our biological functions, degenerations, and evolutionary processes they would not happen. (Once again, how a non-intervening being that is disconnected from the universe can do this is subject to question.)

He's convinced-is anyone else?

This got me wondering, how would neo-pagans frame the evidence for their gods' existences? If someone asked you what evidence convinced you of your god's existence, what would you say? Hopefully it will make more sense.

[Jack]

This got me wondering, how would neo-pagans frame the evidence for their gods' existences? If someone asked you what evidence convinced you of your god's existence, what would you say? Hopefully it will make more sense.

 
Well, the evidence that convinced me of my gods' existence and the evidence I could present to others are fairly different things, to start. My beliefs derive from experiences; I have no evidence I could present to others that does not allow for alternate interpretations.

[Sarah]

Well, just got the summer issue of Skeptic magazine (volume 19, number 2). In it is contained a three-page article entitled "In Defense of Soft Theism," by Miklos Jako, a retired teacher who has been trying to reconcile theists and atheists for the past 45 years. This article is meant to be his solution to the problem, in which he tries to convince atheists of the certainty of his god's probable existence. I guess his view could be called "hard agnosticism."

After reading it I seriously considered vomiting (might still), or returning the magazine, asking how this little nugget of bilge got passed the editor. Anyway, this is the god that Mr. Jako does not worship:

1. is equally semi-benevolent and semi-malevolent
2. cares for, and is cruel to, humans in an intangible way for it does not intervene with our lives
3. is utterly devoid of physical matter and is completely disconnected from the universe and thus exists out of the bounds of the laws of nature, physics, and anything resembling logic
4. for these reasons, the supreme being cannot be communicated with in any way, thereby proving that religion is pointless

How does he prove his god exists? In three simple ways that should win over anyone with half a rational brain:

1. the existence of the universe requires it to have been created by a creator. (One wonders, though, how a being that is devoid of, and disconnected from, matter can do this.)
2. life cannot evolve from pre-biotic cells, it must come from a living being. (Again, one wonders how a non-physical being can be "alive," let alone produce life.)
3. the indefinable life and death forces exist. Without god energizing all our biological functions, degenerations, and evolutionary processes they would not happen. (Once again, how a non-intervening being that is disconnected from the universe can do this is subject to question.)

He's convinced-is anyone else?

This got me wondering, how would neo-pagans frame the evidence for their gods' existences? If someone asked you what evidence convinced you of your god's existence, what would you say? Hopefully it will make more sense.

 
I would never feel the need to prove to someone that my Gods exist, same as i would never feel the need to prove my partner loves me or turquoise is my favorite colour, or my genderqueerness. If other people don't believe these things that's not my problem. And other people believing in my gods is actualy far less important than to me than them believing in some of the other things I've mentioned.

[Jack]

I would never feel the need to prove to someone that my Gods exist, same as i would never feel the need to prove my partner loves me or turquoise is my favorite colour, or my genderqueerness. If other people don't believe these things that's not my problem. And other people believing in my gods is actualy far less important than to me than them believing in some of the other things I've mentioned.

 
I misread that as a challenge to "prove turquoise" - that's what I get for skimming - and I am stuck on how you would even prove a color, let alone on a favorite color. Sure, you could measure the wavelength of light reflected from, say, a t-shirt, but how do you prove if that wavelength is teal or turquoise? Do pantone shades count as scientific proof?

[Sarah]

I misread that as a challenge to "prove turquoise" - that's what I get for skimming - and I am stuck on how you would even prove a color, let alone on a favorite color. Sure, you could measure the wavelength of light reflected from, say, a t-shirt, but how do you prove if that wavelength is teal or turquoise? Do pantone shades count as scientific proof?

 
Well to be fair I'm a soft polycolourist anyway, turquoise, teal, duck egg blue etc all come under the same umbrella

[Jack]

Well to be fair I'm a soft polycolourist anyway, turquoise, teal, duck egg blue etc all come under the same umbrella

Well now, don't get too far out there, duck egg blue is really more of a blue-green-blue than a proper blue-green. It's a slippery slope before you end up arguing that all colors are really white anyway.

[Sarah]

Well now, don't get too far out there, duck egg blue is really more of a blue-green-blue than a proper blue-green.

 
Exuse you, I have seekrit learnings passed down through the centuries that say otherwise

[Jack]

Exuse you, I have seekrit learnings passed down through the centuries that say otherwise

 
Oh now don't be ridiculous. When I commune with the spirit of Teal it sometimes comes through as turquoise but NEVER as duck egg blue.

[Sarah]

Oh now don't be ridiculous. When I commune with the spirit of Teal it sometimes comes through as turquoise but NEVER as duck egg blue.

 
I have said to much already, this information is oath bound afterall

anyway, maybe you are just not listening hard enough

[Jack]

I have said to much already, this information is oath bound afterall

anyway, maybe you are just not listening hard enough

 
Maybe you are actually looking at Cerulean and it's only lying and telling you it's Turquoise.

[Sarah]

Maybe you are actually looking at Cerulean and it's only lying and telling you it's Turquoise.

 
um, I think you will find that cerulean is also turquoise, It's not my fault if you don't understand these higher concepts

[stephyjh]

um, I think you will find that cerulean is also turquoise, It's not my fault if you don't understand these higher concepts

 
I'm sorry, I'm a hard polychromist. You only need to look at the Pantone catalog. You can *tell* which is which. Cerulean is nowhere *close* to any of the Turquoises. And which Turquoise? Pastel Turquoise 13-5309 TCX? Blue Turquoise? Dusty Turquoise? DEFINE YOUR TERMS.

PS. Failing Pantone, there's always hex code.

[Darkhawk]

This got me wondering, how would neo-pagans frame the evidence for their gods' existences?

The only people who care about demonstrating evidence for gods are the people who want to make converts (either for or against).

Since I don't give a flying fuck at a rolling donut whether or not someone else follows my gods, I am not one of those people.

[Jack]

I'm sorry, I'm a hard polychromist. You only need to look at the Pantone catalog. You can *tell* which is which. Cerulean is nowhere *close* to any of the Turquoises. And which Turquoise? Pastel Turquoise 13-5309 TCX? Blue Turquoise? Dusty Turquoise? DEFINE YOUR TERMS.

 
Hey! All Turquoises are definitely the same Turquoise, just different SHADES. If you start to separate them out to such a granular degree, how do we REALLY know that two people are even USING THE SAME COLORS?

[Sarah]

I'm sorry, I'm a hard polychromist. You only need to look at the Pantone catalog. You can *tell* which is which. Cerulean is nowhere *close* to any of the Turquoises. And which Turquoise? Pastel Turquoise 13-5309 TCX? Blue Turquoise? Dusty Turquoise? DEFINE YOUR TERMS.

PS. Failing Pantone, there's always hex code.

 
*sigh*, but these are just ways of explaining the concept of colour so those not trained in it can understand. Those in my trad understand the mystery of how they are all one colour