collapse

* "Unable to verify referring url. Please go back and try again" Problem Logging In?

If you get an "Unable to verify referring url. Please go back and try again" error when you try to log in, you need to be sure you are accessing the board with a url that starts with "https://ecauldron.com".  If it starts with https://www.ecauldron.com" (or "http://www.ecauldron.com") you will get this error because "www.ecauldron.com" is not technically the same website as "ecauldron.com". Moving to the more secure "https" means it is more picky about such things.

Author Topic: How Would You Prove Your God?  (Read 9690 times)

Materialist

  • Sr. Master Member
  • *******
  • Join Date: Oct 2012
  • Posts: 605
  • Total likes: 1
    • View Profile
How Would You Prove Your God?
« on: June 20, 2014, 04:10:10 pm »
Well, just got the summer issue of Skeptic magazine (volume 19, number 2). In it is contained a three-page article entitled "In Defense of Soft Theism," by Miklos Jako, a retired teacher who has been trying to reconcile theists and atheists for the past 45 years. This article is meant to be his solution to the problem, in which he tries to convince atheists of the certainty of his god's probable existence. I guess his view could be called "hard agnosticism."

After reading it I seriously considered vomiting (might still), or returning the magazine, asking how this little nugget of bilge got passed the editor. Anyway, this is the god that Mr. Jako does not worship:

1. is equally semi-benevolent and semi-malevolent
2. cares for, and is cruel to, humans in an intangible way for it does not intervene with our lives
3. is utterly devoid of physical matter and is completely disconnected from the universe and thus exists out of the bounds of the laws of nature, physics, and anything resembling logic
4. for these reasons, the supreme being cannot be communicated with in any way, thereby proving that religion is pointless

How does he prove his god exists? In three simple ways that should win over anyone with half a rational brain:

1. the existence of the universe requires it to have been created by a creator. (One wonders, though, how a being that is devoid of, and disconnected from, matter can do this.)
2. life cannot evolve from pre-biotic cells, it must come from a living being. (Again, one wonders how a non-physical being can be "alive," let alone produce life.)
3. the indefinable life and death forces exist. Without god energizing all our biological functions, degenerations, and evolutionary processes they would not happen. (Once again, how a non-intervening being that is disconnected from the universe can do this is subject to question.)

He's convinced-is anyone else?

This got me wondering, how would neo-pagans frame the evidence for their gods' existences? If someone asked you what evidence convinced you of your god's existence, what would you say? Hopefully it will make more sense.

Jack

  • Adept Member
  • ********
  • Join Date: Apr 2012
  • Location: Cascadia
  • Posts: 3168
  • Country: us
  • Total likes: 90
    • View Profile
    • Jack of Many Trades
  • Religion: ¯\_(ツ)_/¯
  • Preferred Pronouns: he/him/his
Re: How Would You Prove Your God?
« Reply #1 on: June 20, 2014, 04:38:35 pm »
Quote from: Materialist;150563
This got me wondering, how would neo-pagans frame the evidence for their gods' existences? If someone asked you what evidence convinced you of your god's existence, what would you say? Hopefully it will make more sense.

 
Well, the evidence that convinced me of my gods' existence and the evidence I could present to others are fairly different things, to start. My beliefs derive from experiences; I have no evidence I could present to others that does not allow for alternate interpretations.
Hail Mara, Lady of Good Things!
"The only way to cope with something deadly serious is to try to treat it a little lightly." -Madeleine L'Engle

Sarah

  • Sr. Master Member
  • *******
  • Join Date: Apr 2013
  • Posts: 827
  • Total likes: 3
    • View Profile
Re: How Would You Prove Your God?
« Reply #2 on: June 20, 2014, 04:40:13 pm »
Quote from: Materialist;150563
Well, just got the summer issue of Skeptic magazine (volume 19, number 2). In it is contained a three-page article entitled "In Defense of Soft Theism," by Miklos Jako, a retired teacher who has been trying to reconcile theists and atheists for the past 45 years. This article is meant to be his solution to the problem, in which he tries to convince atheists of the certainty of his god's probable existence. I guess his view could be called "hard agnosticism."

After reading it I seriously considered vomiting (might still), or returning the magazine, asking how this little nugget of bilge got passed the editor. Anyway, this is the god that Mr. Jako does not worship:

1. is equally semi-benevolent and semi-malevolent
2. cares for, and is cruel to, humans in an intangible way for it does not intervene with our lives
3. is utterly devoid of physical matter and is completely disconnected from the universe and thus exists out of the bounds of the laws of nature, physics, and anything resembling logic
4. for these reasons, the supreme being cannot be communicated with in any way, thereby proving that religion is pointless

How does he prove his god exists? In three simple ways that should win over anyone with half a rational brain:

1. the existence of the universe requires it to have been created by a creator. (One wonders, though, how a being that is devoid of, and disconnected from, matter can do this.)
2. life cannot evolve from pre-biotic cells, it must come from a living being. (Again, one wonders how a non-physical being can be "alive," let alone produce life.)
3. the indefinable life and death forces exist. Without god energizing all our biological functions, degenerations, and evolutionary processes they would not happen. (Once again, how a non-intervening being that is disconnected from the universe can do this is subject to question.)

He's convinced-is anyone else?

This got me wondering, how would neo-pagans frame the evidence for their gods' existences? If someone asked you what evidence convinced you of your god's existence, what would you say? Hopefully it will make more sense.

 
I would never feel the need to prove to someone that my Gods exist, same as i would never feel the need to prove my partner loves me or turquoise is my favorite colour, or my genderqueerness. If other people don't believe these things that's not my problem. And other people believing in my gods is actualy far less important than to me than them believing in some of the other things I've mentioned.
Knowing when to use a shovel is what being a witch is all about. Nanny Ogg, Witches Abroad

Jack

  • Adept Member
  • ********
  • Join Date: Apr 2012
  • Location: Cascadia
  • Posts: 3168
  • Country: us
  • Total likes: 90
    • View Profile
    • Jack of Many Trades
  • Religion: ¯\_(ツ)_/¯
  • Preferred Pronouns: he/him/his
Re: How Would You Prove Your God?
« Reply #3 on: June 20, 2014, 04:44:07 pm »
Quote from: Jake_;150567
I would never feel the need to prove to someone that my Gods exist, same as i would never feel the need to prove my partner loves me or turquoise is my favorite colour, or my genderqueerness. If other people don't believe these things that's not my problem. And other people believing in my gods is actualy far less important than to me than them believing in some of the other things I've mentioned.

 
I misread that as a challenge to "prove turquoise" - that's what I get for skimming - and I am stuck on how you would even prove a color, let alone on a favorite color. Sure, you could measure the wavelength of light reflected from, say, a t-shirt, but how do you prove if that wavelength is teal or turquoise? Do pantone shades count as scientific proof?
Hail Mara, Lady of Good Things!
"The only way to cope with something deadly serious is to try to treat it a little lightly." -Madeleine L'Engle

Sarah

  • Sr. Master Member
  • *******
  • Join Date: Apr 2013
  • Posts: 827
  • Total likes: 3
    • View Profile
Re: How Would You Prove Your God?
« Reply #4 on: June 20, 2014, 04:50:28 pm »
Quote from: Jack;150568
I misread that as a challenge to "prove turquoise" - that's what I get for skimming - and I am stuck on how you would even prove a color, let alone on a favorite color. Sure, you could measure the wavelength of light reflected from, say, a t-shirt, but how do you prove if that wavelength is teal or turquoise? Do pantone shades count as scientific proof?

 
Well to be fair I'm a soft polycolourist anyway, turquoise, teal, duck egg blue etc all come under the same umbrella
Knowing when to use a shovel is what being a witch is all about. Nanny Ogg, Witches Abroad

Jack

  • Adept Member
  • ********
  • Join Date: Apr 2012
  • Location: Cascadia
  • Posts: 3168
  • Country: us
  • Total likes: 90
    • View Profile
    • Jack of Many Trades
  • Religion: ¯\_(ツ)_/¯
  • Preferred Pronouns: he/him/his
Re: How Would You Prove Your God?
« Reply #5 on: June 20, 2014, 04:54:50 pm »
Quote from: Jake_;150569
Well to be fair I'm a soft polycolourist anyway, turquoise, teal, duck egg blue etc all come under the same umbrella
Well now, don't get too far out there, duck egg blue is really more of a blue-green-blue than a proper blue-green. It's a slippery slope before you end up arguing that all colors are really white anyway.
Hail Mara, Lady of Good Things!
"The only way to cope with something deadly serious is to try to treat it a little lightly." -Madeleine L'Engle

Sarah

  • Sr. Master Member
  • *******
  • Join Date: Apr 2013
  • Posts: 827
  • Total likes: 3
    • View Profile
Re: How Would You Prove Your God?
« Reply #6 on: June 20, 2014, 04:59:09 pm »
Quote from: Jack;150570
Well now, don't get too far out there, duck egg blue is really more of a blue-green-blue than a proper blue-green.

 
Exuse you, I have seekrit learnings passed down through the centuries that say otherwise
Knowing when to use a shovel is what being a witch is all about. Nanny Ogg, Witches Abroad

Jack

  • Adept Member
  • ********
  • Join Date: Apr 2012
  • Location: Cascadia
  • Posts: 3168
  • Country: us
  • Total likes: 90
    • View Profile
    • Jack of Many Trades
  • Religion: ¯\_(ツ)_/¯
  • Preferred Pronouns: he/him/his
Re: How Would You Prove Your God?
« Reply #7 on: June 20, 2014, 05:01:09 pm »
Quote from: Jake_;150571
Exuse you, I have seekrit learnings passed down through the centuries that say otherwise

 
Oh now don't be ridiculous. When I commune with the spirit of Teal it sometimes comes through as turquoise but NEVER as duck egg blue.
Hail Mara, Lady of Good Things!
"The only way to cope with something deadly serious is to try to treat it a little lightly." -Madeleine L'Engle

Sarah

  • Sr. Master Member
  • *******
  • Join Date: Apr 2013
  • Posts: 827
  • Total likes: 3
    • View Profile
Re: How Would You Prove Your God?
« Reply #8 on: June 20, 2014, 05:02:56 pm »
Quote from: Jack;150572
Oh now don't be ridiculous. When I commune with the spirit of Teal it sometimes comes through as turquoise but NEVER as duck egg blue.

 
I have said to much already, this information is oath bound afterall

anyway, maybe you are just not listening hard enough
Knowing when to use a shovel is what being a witch is all about. Nanny Ogg, Witches Abroad

Jack

  • Adept Member
  • ********
  • Join Date: Apr 2012
  • Location: Cascadia
  • Posts: 3168
  • Country: us
  • Total likes: 90
    • View Profile
    • Jack of Many Trades
  • Religion: ¯\_(ツ)_/¯
  • Preferred Pronouns: he/him/his
Re: How Would You Prove Your God?
« Reply #9 on: June 20, 2014, 05:07:23 pm »
Quote from: Jake_;150573
I have said to much already, this information is oath bound afterall

anyway, maybe you are just not listening hard enough

 
Maybe you are actually looking at Cerulean and it's only lying and telling you it's Turquoise.
Hail Mara, Lady of Good Things!
"The only way to cope with something deadly serious is to try to treat it a little lightly." -Madeleine L'Engle

Sarah

  • Sr. Master Member
  • *******
  • Join Date: Apr 2013
  • Posts: 827
  • Total likes: 3
    • View Profile
Re: How Would You Prove Your God?
« Reply #10 on: June 20, 2014, 05:10:55 pm »
Quote from: Jack;150574
Maybe you are actually looking at Cerulean and it's only lying and telling you it's Turquoise.

 
um, I think you will find that cerulean is also turquoise, It's not my fault if you don't understand these higher concepts
Knowing when to use a shovel is what being a witch is all about. Nanny Ogg, Witches Abroad

stephyjh

  • Grand Master Member
  • *******
  • Join Date: Jul 2011
  • Posts: 1597
  • Total likes: 2
    • View Profile
Re: How Would You Prove Your God?
« Reply #11 on: June 20, 2014, 05:13:40 pm »
Quote from: Jake_;150575
um, I think you will find that cerulean is also turquoise, It's not my fault if you don't understand these higher concepts

 
I'm sorry, I'm a hard polychromist. You only need to look at the Pantone catalog. You can *tell* which is which. Cerulean is nowhere *close* to any of the Turquoises. And which Turquoise? Pastel Turquoise 13-5309 TCX? Blue Turquoise? Dusty Turquoise? DEFINE YOUR TERMS.

PS. Failing Pantone, there's always hex code.
A heretic blast has been blown in the west,
That what is no sense must be nonsense.

-Robert Burns

Darkhawk

  • Senior Staff
  • *
  • Join Date: Jun 2011
  • Posts: 4890
  • Country: us
  • Total likes: 767
    • View Profile
    • Suns in her Branches
  • Religion: An American Werewolf in the Akhet; Kemetic; Feri; Imaginary Baltic Heathen; Discordian; CoX; Etc.
  • Preferred Pronouns: any of he, she, they
Re: How Would You Prove Your God?
« Reply #12 on: June 20, 2014, 05:15:45 pm »
Quote from: Materialist;150563
This got me wondering, how would neo-pagans frame the evidence for their gods' existences?


The only people who care about demonstrating evidence for gods are the people who want to make converts (either for or against).

Since I don't give a flying fuck at a rolling donut whether or not someone else follows my gods, I am not one of those people.
as the water grinds the stone
we rise and fall
as our ashes turn to dust
we shine like stars    - Covenant, "Bullet"

Jack

  • Adept Member
  • ********
  • Join Date: Apr 2012
  • Location: Cascadia
  • Posts: 3168
  • Country: us
  • Total likes: 90
    • View Profile
    • Jack of Many Trades
  • Religion: ¯\_(ツ)_/¯
  • Preferred Pronouns: he/him/his
Re: How Would You Prove Your God?
« Reply #13 on: June 20, 2014, 05:16:46 pm »
Quote from: stephyjh;150576
I'm sorry, I'm a hard polychromist. You only need to look at the Pantone catalog. You can *tell* which is which. Cerulean is nowhere *close* to any of the Turquoises. And which Turquoise? Pastel Turquoise 13-5309 TCX? Blue Turquoise? Dusty Turquoise? DEFINE YOUR TERMS.

 
Hey! All Turquoises are definitely the same Turquoise, just different SHADES. If you start to separate them out to such a granular degree, how do we REALLY know that two people are even USING THE SAME COLORS?
Hail Mara, Lady of Good Things!
"The only way to cope with something deadly serious is to try to treat it a little lightly." -Madeleine L'Engle

Sarah

  • Sr. Master Member
  • *******
  • Join Date: Apr 2013
  • Posts: 827
  • Total likes: 3
    • View Profile
Re: How Would You Prove Your God?
« Reply #14 on: June 20, 2014, 05:18:33 pm »
Quote from: stephyjh;150576
I'm sorry, I'm a hard polychromist. You only need to look at the Pantone catalog. You can *tell* which is which. Cerulean is nowhere *close* to any of the Turquoises. And which Turquoise? Pastel Turquoise 13-5309 TCX? Blue Turquoise? Dusty Turquoise? DEFINE YOUR TERMS.

PS. Failing Pantone, there's always hex code.

 
*sigh*, but these are just ways of explaining the concept of colour so those not trained in it can understand. Those in my trad understand the mystery of how they are all one colour
Knowing when to use a shovel is what being a witch is all about. Nanny Ogg, Witches Abroad

Tags:
 

Related Topics

  Subject / Started by Replies Last post
25 Replies
4182 Views
Last post November 16, 2011, 02:43:20 pm
by mandrina
33 Replies
4415 Views
Last post December 01, 2012, 08:25:57 pm
by Hrútsvinr
58 Replies
4432 Views
Last post November 11, 2012, 04:52:27 am
by Nyktipolos
30 Replies
7993 Views
Last post July 07, 2016, 09:16:20 pm
by Mivi
21 Replies
1770 Views
Last post November 11, 2017, 11:48:36 am
by Naunau

* Who's Online

  • Dot Guests: 42
  • Dot Hidden: 0
  • Dot Users: 1
  • Dot Users Online:

* Please Donate!

The Cauldron's server is expensive and requires monthly payments. Please become a Bronze, Silver or Gold Donor if you can. Donations are needed every month. Without member support, we can't afford the server.

* Shop & Support TC

The links below are affiliate links. When you click on one of these links you will go to the listed shopping site with The Cauldron's affiliate code. Any purchases you make during your visit will earn TC a tiny percentage of your purchase price at no extra cost to you.

* In Memoriam

Chavi (2006)
Elspeth (2010)
Marilyn (2013)

* Cauldron Staff

Host:
Sunflower

Message Board Staff
Board Coordinator:
Darkhawk

Assistant Board Coordinator:
Aster Breo

Senior Staff:
Aisling, Jenett, Sefiru

Staff:
Allaya, Chatelaine, EclecticWheel, HarpingHawke, Kylara, PerditaPickle, rocquelaire

Discord Chat Staff
Chat Coordinator:
Morag

Cauldron Council:
Bob, Catja, Emma-Eldritch, Fausta, Jubes, Kelly, LyricFox, Phouka, Sperran, Star, Steve, Tana

Site Administrator:
Randall