collapse
2017 Donation Drive -- Please Help Keep TC Online

It's time for our annual Server Donation Drive! We need to raise just over $850 to keep The Cauldron's server online for another year. Please help! Either hit that Paypal button to the right and make a one-time donation in any amount or set up a monthly Bronze, Silver or Gold Donor subscription. You can find more info in this message!

Donations as of 16 September: Only $296 more (after Paypal fees) needed to reach our goal! Please donate if you can.


* "Unable to verify referring url. Please go back and try again" Problem Logging In?

If you get an "Unable to verify referring url. Please go back and try again" error when you try to log in, you need to be sure you are accessing the board with a url that starts with "https://ecauldron.com".  If it starts with https://www.ecauldron.com" (or "http://www.ecauldron.com") you will get this error because "www.ecauldron.com" is not technically the same website as "ecauldron.com". Moving to the more secure "https" means it is more picky about such things.

Author Topic: Free Will  (Read 4383 times)

ehbowen

  • Master Member
  • ******
  • Join Date: Jul 2011
  • Location: Houston, Texas
  • Posts: 412
  • Attack: 100
    Defense: 100
    Attack Member
  • Country: us
  • Total likes: 11
  • A Ways Around the Bend...
    • View Profile
    • Streamliner Schedules
  • Religion: Southern Baptist
Re: Free Will
« Reply #15 on: March 12, 2017, 05:56:56 pm »
Quote from: Plutarch;203666
Interesting...

I don't want to pull this thread off-topic but I had never heard of the idea of a "future personality trying to reach back to the present." But, in one way or another, there could be some truth to that.

Kinda busy right now so I'll only reply to this little bit, but...I think it happens every night. I think that many (not all) of our dreams are echoes of "what could have been" and that, from some point in the future, we are choosing to follow the path of the reality that we wake up in.

What specific point? I suspect that it may be tied in to the old story of one's life "flashing" before one's eyes at the point of death. "Did you really want to make that choice?"

Sent from my STV100-1 using Tapatalk
--------Eric H. Bowen
Where's the KABOOM? There was supposed to have been an Earth-shattering KABOOM!

sevensons

Re: Free Will
« Reply #16 on: March 13, 2017, 12:45:22 am »
Quote from: ehbowen;203620
I personally see that as a combination of divine guidance (not necessarily Deity, but also guardian angels and similar) as well as our own future personality attempting to reach back through time as much as possible and attempt to induce us in the here-and-now to avoid choices which would be disastrous and/or reinforce those which will prove beneficial.

While I do believe that these sources of advice are real and ongoing, I also believe that we are absolutely free to either heed or ignore them. I also believe that not all of the divine guidance is necessarily "friendly"...take it at your own risk. "Trust your feelings, Luke" is not always the wisest choice of action....

 
I don't believe there is free will just choice follow your mind and stay on the tracks. or make a decision to think away from your minds thoughts.

Shewhoseeks

Re: Free Will
« Reply #17 on: March 13, 2017, 02:41:25 am »
Quote from: Nymree;193096
Hi All,

Opinions, please. Do you believe in free will? Would you describe your beliefs as maybe more hard deterministic, or soft deterministic? Why? Do you believe in a soul, and if so, how is this involved (if at all)? Thanks to any and all replies made :)

 
Hmm first of all "free" is an absolute term meaning devoid of constraints. Fact is though that we are all limited by our environment as location and by our social interactions and ultimately by who we are and maybe who we were (that is something worth of another thread). So no, not really. I consider what is commonly called free will to be an illusion.

If we have a soul... I believe in that, yes. That concerns the part "who we were" in my answer. But this is rather a question of belief and unanswered questions and not of reasoned thought.

My 2 cents :)

ehbowen

  • Master Member
  • ******
  • Join Date: Jul 2011
  • Location: Houston, Texas
  • Posts: 412
  • Attack: 100
    Defense: 100
    Attack Member
  • Country: us
  • Total likes: 11
  • A Ways Around the Bend...
    • View Profile
    • Streamliner Schedules
  • Religion: Southern Baptist
Re: Free Will
« Reply #18 on: March 13, 2017, 07:43:47 am »
Quote from: Plutarch;203666
We do have reasoning faculties that try to predict potential outcomes of future events. I've read (through theories of evolutionary scientists) that our faculty of imagination may have come to us because it was something that helped us to survive in the wild. For example, we could imagine possible behaviors that animals would exhibit during the chase of the hunt for food. We could also stockpile food in the summer in anticipation of the upcoming winter, for example.


On the other hand, I believe that we have imagination because God has imagination, and we have been created in the image of God. Chicken, or egg?
 
Quote from: Plutarch;203666
I am deeply fascinated with the subject of magic and the idea that there are extra-dimensional or spirit entities which can cross over, but I must point out that while I research this material and want to learn everything I can on the subject, I personally do not practice magic, for the exact reason you stated about "friendly" guidance. In fact, what keeps me away from actually contemplating the practice is the worry that I'd get in contact with something trying to deceive me.


There was a point as a pre-teenager that I was introduced to the subject of the occult...and I fell for it. Hook, line, and sinker. I read everything on the subject that I could find (this was 1972-1974 or so). But nothing that I tried ever "worked," although I had multiple very scary dreams through this period. Looking back, I now believe that I had a team of guardian angels working overtime to shield me and to keep that experimentation from ever bearing fruit...and that they have the scars to prove it. Thanks, ladies.

Eventually, while at church, I heard a recorded Bible study one Sunday evening on the Biblical view of the occult. I realized that it was a message directed specifically at me, and the message was, "Stop." I did. But I still have the memories of those years and, in the intervening four decades, I have come to believe that while the message [of the occult] as it was being pushed to me in those days was a lie...that my God actually does want to ferret out the best of the thoughts and the hopes underlying it and "make it real."

At the present time I still see this as a "work in progress" and so it would be premature for me personally to take any steps in that direction. I think it possible, though, that some of those on this very board could in fact be "beta testing" that development system without even realizing it....

Quote from: Plutarch;203666
Going back to free will, I personally think the argument of free will vs. predestination can't be made in the absolute, meaning it isn't a case of one or the other. I see them as two independent and separate forces working in conjunction with each other. As Alice Bailey explained in "Esoteric Psychology Vol 1", there is no free will except within certain clearly defined limits, which are defined by equipment and by circumstance.

I think what she's trying to say here is that we indeed have free will, but we only get to exercise that free will within a small circle delineated by fate.

For example, you have total choice on how to go about living your life, but you cannot change who your parents were or the particular era of time in which you were born.


I see the process of reality taking shape as akin to fractional distillation. I believe that event sequences—"timelines"—are being repeated over, and over, and over. As they occur and we begin to make choices, and those choices interact with the choices of others (deities and angels and demons included), some either drop off to the side and are abandoned by all parties concerned; some are explored for a time, begin to take on details, but then are either permanently or temporarily abandoned in favor of choices we like better (in which case those abandoned timelines can and often do become dreams, with varying levels of "vividness"), and some coalesce into the path which we personally see as ultimately being highest and best. At the moment we experience as "now" that path crystallizes and becomes what we all recognize as reality.

I ultimately take what another has termed a "compatibilist" view of free will. As I've said elsewhere, I believe that we have the absolute freedom to choose steak, chicken, or fish in each "iteration." However, if an outside observer sees that my mood hasn't changed, that my physical and financial state hasn't changed, and that I've chosen steak in the last 296,323 iterations it's probably a safe bet that I'll choose the steak the next time as well. [Rib eye, medium, with sautéed mushrooms and rice pilaf, if you please....]
--------Eric H. Bowen
Where's the KABOOM? There was supposed to have been an Earth-shattering KABOOM!

sevensons

Re: Free Will
« Reply #19 on: March 13, 2017, 09:24:46 am »
Quote from: Heim;203629
I do believe in free will. If there is a limit to one's free will, I think it is a sociological or psychological limit instead of a matter of divine influence.

 
If I think to myself I am going to be donating something is that divine influence.

ehbowen

  • Master Member
  • ******
  • Join Date: Jul 2011
  • Location: Houston, Texas
  • Posts: 412
  • Attack: 100
    Defense: 100
    Attack Member
  • Country: us
  • Total likes: 11
  • A Ways Around the Bend...
    • View Profile
    • Streamliner Schedules
  • Religion: Southern Baptist
Re: Free Will
« Reply #20 on: March 13, 2017, 11:01:21 am »
Quote from: sevensons;203685
If I think to myself I am going to be donating something is that divine influence.

 
If I ask myself whether I want that pretty Chrysler 300 is that advertising and salesman influence? Probably. But I made the choice to walk into the dealership (and which dealership to walk to); I made the choice to listen to the sales pitch; I made the choice to take the test drive; and, ultimately, I must make the choice as to whether or not to sign the paperwork. (I did. And, so far, it's been a pretty good choice....)
--------Eric H. Bowen
Where's the KABOOM? There was supposed to have been an Earth-shattering KABOOM!

Plutarch

Re: Free Will
« Reply #21 on: March 16, 2017, 04:20:54 pm »
Quote from: ehbowen;203682
I see the process of reality taking shape as akin to fractional distillation. I believe that event sequences—"timelines"—are being repeated over, and over, and over. As they occur and we begin to make choices, and those choices interact with the choices of others (deities and angels and demons included), some either drop off to the side and are abandoned by all parties concerned; some are explored for a time, begin to take on details, but then are either permanently or temporarily abandoned in favor of choices we like better (in which case those abandoned timelines can and often do become dreams, with varying levels of "vividness"), and some coalesce into the path which we personally see as ultimately being highest and best. At the moment we experience as "now" that path crystallizes and becomes what we all recognize as reality.


Some really interesting ideas in your whole post, but above is what sticks with me the most.

It makes me think about the idea of "hindsight being 20/20." It is so easy to look at causes and effects to see how certain historical events play out, but it's damn near impossible to understand the present. I think that's what makes the future so difficult to predict...and why, essentially, the future is unknowable. It's because you have all these different causes overlapping with other causes, and certain events playing out while other effects are just dropped out.

You know, throughout antiquity, the Prophets weren't necessarily divinators or fortune tellers. I'll concede that some may very well have had supernatural sight. But in many cases, the Prophets simply observed the decadence and corruption of the king, or the ignorance and apathy of the people, and had the foresight to say, "if you keep going on down this path, you're asking for trouble."

But the idea of being stuck in some kind of infinite loop of possibilities which are narrowed down by choice...it's a little disheartening when you don't know what the whole purpose of all of this serves. Especially when we, as a people, forget out own history and end up making the same mistakes that have been made by people thousands of times before...

ehbowen

  • Master Member
  • ******
  • Join Date: Jul 2011
  • Location: Houston, Texas
  • Posts: 412
  • Attack: 100
    Defense: 100
    Attack Member
  • Country: us
  • Total likes: 11
  • A Ways Around the Bend...
    • View Profile
    • Streamliner Schedules
  • Religion: Southern Baptist
Re: Free Will
« Reply #22 on: March 16, 2017, 05:43:18 pm »
Quote from: Plutarch;203792
But the idea of being stuck in some kind of infinite loop of possibilities which are narrowed down by choice...it's a little disheartening when you don't know what the whole purpose of all of this serves. Especially when we, as a people, forget out own history and end up making the same mistakes that have been made by people thousands of times before...

I don't know what purpose is being served in your life, but in my own...my great desire is to meet God. And I believe that I have, more than once, but...I didn't know it at the time. Sometimes, especially in more recent years, I have strongly suspected, but going up to a strange person and asking, "Excuse me, but are you actually God?" is a recipe either for a one-way trip to the funny farm or else a ticket for a trip that would make Mr. Toad's Wild Ride look like a kiddie carousel.

When the time and place is right, I want the other side to "break the plane." And I believe my God wants to do exactly that, and in fact is working on it. The trouble is all of those billions upon billions of "echoes". Separating out the one that is actually "me" is a challenge, even for deity.

Yes, it's easy to cry out that I'm right here; Houston, Texas at 4:35 in the afternoon (CDT) on March 16, 2017...but there might be several million echoes saying the same thing. The chaff has to be winnowed. So I believe that the challenges and frustrations which come my way are an opportunity to demonstrate that my reactions in the here and now are the same as those which first caught their attention, whether fifty years in the past or twice as far into the future...and to get closer to knowing the Real Me.

I do firmly believe that at some point that process will be complete...and then I will have a chance to talk directly and openly with my Girlfriend and her Family, face to face, with nothing concealed except that which is owed to modesty and propriety. And at that point I truly "shall know just as I also am known." (Romans 13:12)
« Last Edit: March 16, 2017, 05:43:41 pm by ehbowen »
--------Eric H. Bowen
Where's the KABOOM? There was supposed to have been an Earth-shattering KABOOM!

sevensons

Re: Free Will
« Reply #23 on: March 17, 2017, 06:30:33 pm »
Quote from: Plutarch;203792


You know, throughout antiquity, the Prophets weren't necessarily divinators or fortune tellers. I'll concede that some may very well have had supernatural sight. But in many cases, the Prophets simply observed the decadence and corruption of the king, or the ignorance and apathy of the people, and had the foresight to say, "if you keep going on down this path, you're asking for trouble."

 
All though back then they didn't have so much corruption of the mind they also didn't have access to so much knowledge like us now. I think distillation mind process purity.

Something

Re: Free Will
« Reply #24 on: March 29, 2017, 04:01:16 pm »
Quote from: Nymree;193096
Hi All,

Opinions, please. Do you believe in free will? Would you describe your beliefs as maybe more hard deterministic, or soft deterministic? Why? Do you believe in a soul, and if so, how is this involved (if at all)? Thanks to any and all replies made :)

 
I believe most of us depending on circumstances are completely in control of our own destiny, I believe in free will as long as it doesn't cause harm to others involved,
Would you refrain from attacking someone who was beating a young woman just because it would interfere with his free will?   Of course not... Life is all about knowing which action suits each purpose, there will be times to cuddle someone and show them kindness, there will also be times to show anger and aggression..
 The key is learning, few of us will be able to honestly say there isn't a single mistake we have made but as long as your realising it your on the right track.. As for the other questions yes the spirit or soul is very real and yes there is a next life and depending on how you have lived will depend on which part you end up in, most of us have lived before at least once but for obvious reasons your memories are banished upon re-entry, there are ways to get your memories back although this is not something I would advise.. Blessings

Tags:
 

Related Topics

  Subject / Started by Replies Last post
0 Replies
800 Views
Last post September 04, 2011, 03:36:44 pm
by AlisonLeighLilly
1 Replies
918 Views
Last post October 02, 2011, 10:08:26 am
by SunflowerP
3 Replies
1013 Views
Last post February 20, 2012, 06:34:39 pm
by mlr52
1 Replies
753 Views
Last post January 25, 2012, 05:54:00 pm
by Celtag
0 Replies
850 Views
Last post February 01, 2012, 05:17:33 pm
by Vale

* Members in Chat

0 members chatting in CauldronMUX:
Updated every five minutes or so

* Who's Online

  • Dot Guests: 36
  • Dot Hidden: 0
  • Dot Users: 1
  • Dot Users Online:

* Please Donate!

The Cauldron's server is expensive and requires monthly payments. Please become a Bronze, Silver or Gold Donor if you can. Donations are needed every month. Without member support, we can't afford the server.

* In Memoriam

Chavi (2006)
Elspeth (2010)
Marilyn (2013)

* Cauldron Staff

Co-Hosts:
LyricFox & Randall

Message Board Staff
Board Coordinator:
Sunflower

Assistant Board Coordinator:
Aster Breo

Board Staff:
Allaya, Chatelaine, Emma-Eldritch, HarpingHawke, Jenett, Morag, rocquelaire, Sefiru, Tana

CauldronMUX Chat Staff
Chief MUX Wizard:
Darkhawk

Reserve Staff:
Aisling, Bob, Catja, Fausta, Sperran, Steve

Cauldron Council:
Everfool, Jubes, Kelly, Koi, Melamphoros, Ocelot, Phouka, Sashapablo, Star

Cauldron Assistants
[Non-Staff Positions]

Site Assistants
[Non-Staff Positions]
Webmaster:
Randall