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Author Topic: Does Love Exist?  (Read 9547 times)

Nymree

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Does Love Exist?
« on: January 30, 2016, 05:36:03 pm »
I figured this is an interesting discussion in general, but additionally what do you personally think, and what does your path/specific religion teach? Some people believe in romantic love, and some only attraction. What do you believe?

Faemon

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Re: Does Love Exist?
« Reply #1 on: January 30, 2016, 07:17:15 pm »
Quote from: Nymree;185989
I figured this is an interesting discussion in general, but additionally what do you personally think, and what does your path/specific religion teach? Some people believe in romantic love, and some only attraction. What do you believe?


I can believe the idea that what we call romantic love is usually a reaction to witnessing another person who most easily carries (embodies) our subconscious projections for what qualities of a person can validate, repair, and/or complete oneself. These qualities, the object of that affection has conveyed.

I'd also count the more community-oriented sort of love we might call charity and compassion which would usually be more performative, if everyone does it, it would be common decency. That's also love.

It's not necessarily the same thing but diffused in presence when split up with a community, and more intense with The One. I guess it could be, if for whatever reason romance becomes comprehensible only as a duty, or someone has a keen drive to alleviate the personal suffering of every single person who finds their way into a homeless shelter because they themselves will feel suffering in spite of not actually being in the same life situation. But they might also be two entirely different things, depending on the person.

Loyalty, camaraderie, even challenge can be forms of love. Heck, I've been reading The Way of the Wizard by Deepak Chopra where he argues that enmity and active harm are just forms of love distorted by the egoism of temporal consciousness. (To be fair, it's described as distorted coming from the perpetrator, not that the victim just isn't enlightened enough to take abuse as love or rise above their own egoistic desires for validation and personal safety.)

My understanding of cosmic love or the metaphysics of love is a bit more vague, because right now I'm more interested in such as soulmate.
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MeadowRae

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Re: Does Love Exist?
« Reply #2 on: January 30, 2016, 09:00:06 pm »
Quote from: Nymree;185989
I figured this is an interesting discussion in general, but additionally what do you personally think, and what does your path/specific religion teach? Some people believe in romantic love, and some only attraction. What do you believe?

 
I believe in love. I believe that the opposite of love is apathy, not hate. The English language has more individual words than most languages, yet we have designated only one word for the incredibly complex concept of love. There is love of Spirit, love between family members, love of friends, love of self...etc.

In terms of romantic love, I think it's much like other Forms of love between people-it's an energetic tie that binds you. It's why relationships are so difficult to get over. The physical energy exchanged during sex increases the power of that tie; so much so that sometimes people seem to blend into each other. When it goes well, it is one of the most beautiful things on earth. When it is abused..there aren't many feelings in the world worse than that.
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Morag

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Re: Does Love Exist?
« Reply #3 on: January 30, 2016, 10:14:43 pm »
Quote from: ViolaRae;185993
The physical energy exchanged during sex increases the power of that tie; so much so that sometimes people seem to blend into each other.

 
It's possible to have a romantic relationship with someone that's completely asexual, and I can tell you from experience that it hurts just as much when your romantic asexual partner stabs you in the back as when a sexual partner does.

I know you didn't say outright that romantic relationships require sex, but it is easily inferred and often romance and sex are conflated or seen as necessary to each other, so I wanted to clarify. :)
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MeadowRae

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Re: Does Love Exist?
« Reply #4 on: January 31, 2016, 09:08:55 am »
Quote from: Morag;185996
It's possible to have a romantic relationship with someone that's completely asexual, and I can tell you from experience that it hurts just as much when your romantic asexual partner stabs you in the back as when a sexual partner does.

I know you didn't say outright that romantic relationships require sex, but it is easily inferred and often romance and sex are conflated or seen as necessary to each other, so I wanted to clarify. :)

 
I appreciate the clarification! I apologize for not being more inclusive.
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DIASPORA-1963

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Re: Does Love Exist?
« Reply #5 on: April 07, 2016, 04:18:26 pm »
Quote from: Nymree;185989
I figured this is an interesting discussion in general, but additionally what do you personally think, and what does your path/specific religion teach? Some people believe in romantic love, and some only attraction. What do you believe?


Romance is an invention - & a 1/2-baked one at that ... It's better to fall in love w/a good friend, over a period of time than to be struck by the "lightening bolt" or "Cupid's arrow".

Real love is more being able to stomach somebody for long periods of time than anything else - "You make me sick, it's true, but I'd miss you, if you left, so I put up w/your crap" means "I love you!"

Yes - people do love, but love is messy, & it hurts more than it feels good, but, when it feels good, it's so good the hurt is forgotten.

Love & Hate are twins, by the way - never forget that. You can't have one w/o the other. You never love anybody w/o hating him/her, as well - but that's a secret that's so secret I'm sure I'll get blasted from all directions for revealing it!
MARK aka CELLVLANVS MAGVS
OMNIA DEPENDET!

Jack

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Re: Does Love Exist?
« Reply #6 on: April 08, 2016, 11:54:07 am »
Quote from: DIASPORA-1963;189629
Real love is more being able to stomach somebody for long periods of time than anything else - "You make me sick, it's true, but I'd miss you, if you left, so I put up w/your crap" means "I love you!"

Yes - people do love, but love is messy, & it hurts more than it feels good, but, when it feels good, it's so good the hurt is forgotten.

Love & Hate are twins, by the way - never forget that. You can't have one w/o the other. You never love anybody w/o hating him/her, as well - but that's a secret that's so secret I'm sure I'll get blasted from all directions for revealing it!

 
You know what's funny is those are all things my ex used as reasons why I should stay in an abusive relationship, and now that I'm in a healthy one I find they are not true at all.

Do I get frustrated sometimes? Oh, sure. Does it take more work to care about the things that make another person happy than just to worry about my needs? Sure. But I like making my SO happy, so I don't mind, like, cooking dinner because they like it when I cook dinner. And I don't hate my SO at all.

But then I'm of the opinion that the opposite of love is apathy.
Hail Mara, Lady of Good Things!
"The only way to cope with something deadly serious is to try to treat it a little lightly." -Madeleine L'Engle

DIASPORA-1963

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Re: Does Love Exist?
« Reply #7 on: April 08, 2016, 11:58:45 am »
Quote from: Jack;189668
You know what's funny is those are all things my ex used as reasons why I should stay in an abusive relationship, and now that I'm in a healthy one I find they are not true at all.

Do I get frustrated sometimes? Oh, sure. Does it take more work to care about the things that make another person happy than just to worry about my needs? Sure. But I like making my SO happy, so I don't mind, like, cooking dinner because they like it when I cook dinner. And I don't hate my SO at all.

But then I'm of the opinion that the opposite of love is apathy.


How long have you and your SO been together?
MARK aka CELLVLANVS MAGVS
OMNIA DEPENDET!

DIASPORA-1963

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Re: Does Love Exist?
« Reply #8 on: April 08, 2016, 12:15:11 pm »
Quote from: DIASPORA-1963;189670
How long have you and your SO been together?

 
Oh, I forgot - you don't tell your pumpkin that he/she makes you sick; that is abusive. Instead, you smile, nod, do as you were asked/told, wander off, and kick something inanimate. It's OK to revel in your rotten thoughts, so long as you keep them private.

"Oh, how nice, when?" = official reaction to news that mother-in-law will be visiting
"What, that c--t, again - she should die!" = translation of above, kept to yourself ...

"Of course I don't mind" = official reaction to request to change your behavior/attitude/underwear
"There's something else I'd like to change, too, but that would cost too much money right about now ..." = first thoughts of calling a divorce lawyer ...

"Of course I love you" = official response to question asked
"And that's my whole problem in a nutshell" = the rest of the sentence left unsaid ...

If you want a happy marriage, after the first 10 years, you learn -
Don't see anything, hear anything, feel anything and, especially, say anything!
MARK aka CELLVLANVS MAGVS
OMNIA DEPENDET!

Darkhawk

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Re: Does Love Exist?
« Reply #9 on: April 08, 2016, 12:20:41 pm »
Quote from: DIASPORA-1963;189672
If you want a happy marriage, after the first 10 years, you learn -
Don't see anything, hear anything, feel anything and, especially, say anything!

 
So, you think that if you want a happy marriage, you must lie your ass off constantly and be miserable.

That does not look terribly happy to me, but what do I know?  I've only been with one spouse for twenty-two years and the other for eleven.  Clearly if I make it through the first ten I'll know better.
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Jack

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Re: Does Love Exist?
« Reply #10 on: April 08, 2016, 12:34:17 pm »
Quote from: DIASPORA-1963;189670
How long have you and your SO been together?

 
Since 2001, but thanks for assuming. ;)
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"The only way to cope with something deadly serious is to try to treat it a little lightly." -Madeleine L'Engle

Jack

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Re: Does Love Exist?
« Reply #11 on: April 08, 2016, 12:55:00 pm »
Quote from: DIASPORA-1963;189672
Oh, I forgot - you don't tell your pumpkin that he/she makes you sick; that is abusive. Instead, you smile, nod, do as you were asked/told, wander off, and kick something inanimate. It's OK to revel in your rotten thoughts, so long as you keep them private.

"Oh, how nice, when?" = official reaction to news that mother-in-law will be visiting
"What, that c--t, again - she should die!" = translation of above, kept to yourself ...

"Of course I don't mind" = official reaction to request to change your behavior/attitude/underwear
"There's something else I'd like to change, too, but that would cost too much money right about now ..." = first thoughts of calling a divorce lawyer ...

"Of course I love you" = official response to question asked
"And that's my whole problem in a nutshell" = the rest of the sentence left unsaid ...

If you want a happy marriage, after the first 10 years, you learn -
Don't see anything, hear anything, feel anything and, especially, say anything!

 
See, here's the thing.

My spouse doesn't make me sick. I enjoy spending time with them. I have plenty of rotten thoughts, but generally they're about how I'm awful and I don't know how they put up with me, and my therapist advises I not wallow in them.

Generally my spouse asks me why I do something rather than asking me to change it without preamble. They then explain why that doesn't work for them and we come to a compromise. It's this awesome relationship technique I learned called communication. It does wonders when you live in real life and not a television sitcom.

(I would know; I grew up in a television sitcom.)

I like my mother-in-law, and because she and her child have good boundaries and we have a small place, she stays in a hotel when she visits.

Maybe it's because I had to wait so damn long to get married in the first place, but I have no interest in getting divorced any time soon. We had a full decade together, both with and without the abusive ex, to learn how we each functioned and how we function together.

The answer is that we're much better together than we are apart. I love them; I derive a lot of happiness from making them happy, more than I do from doing things that make myself happy. Part of this is probably my own issues, which make it hard for me to make myself happy or to be selfish. (It was a Catholic sitcom.) But it doesn't change the fact that I am a happier person with them, I am a more functional person with them, and I am a healthier person with them. They encourage me to do what makes me happy; they give me space to be selfish and have my own needs, which is not something I had in prior relationships or with my family.

I'm of the opinion that that's how relationships should work. If the people involved don't want the other to be happy and healthy, then the relationship is non-functional. What happy and healthy looks like may be different for different people; I don't judge based on outside appearances.

If someone is not happy in a relationship, they should consider leaving it. But the fact that some people are not happy in relationships and decide staying is the best course of action regardless does not mean all relationships are unhappy. That's just bad statistics.
Hail Mara, Lady of Good Things!
"The only way to cope with something deadly serious is to try to treat it a little lightly." -Madeleine L'Engle

DIASPORA-1963

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Re: Does Love Exist?
« Reply #12 on: April 08, 2016, 01:55:43 pm »
Quote from: Darkhawk;189673
So, you think that if you want a happy marriage, you must lie your ass off constantly and be miserable.

That does not look terribly happy to me, but what do I know?  I've only been with one spouse for twenty-two years and the other for eleven.  Clearly if I make it through the first ten I'll know better.

 
No - if you don't lie your ass off constantly you'll be miserable! How many husbands do you talk to?

"I don't say anything about anything anymore. I've learned to keep my mouth shut. It's easier that way".

"I used to argue, but now I just put on my shoes an go".

"It's easier now that my daughter is a little older. She can warn me when the wife has bought something new for the house, so I can pretend to notice it and admire it".

"You know, I've got to where I like to lose at cards. This way, I just get yelled at. I don't have to hand over my winnings".

"It's a funny thing. I like my mother-in-law. I do. If I could keep my mother-in-law and get rid of my wife, I'd do it ... The mother-in-law can cook!"

"I don't know where we're going on vacation. The wife hasn't told me yet".
MARK aka CELLVLANVS MAGVS
OMNIA DEPENDET!

Jack

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Re: Does Love Exist?
« Reply #13 on: April 08, 2016, 02:06:05 pm »
Quote from: DIASPORA-1963;189676
No - if you don't lie your ass off constantly you'll be miserable! How many husbands do you talk to?

"I don't say anything about anything anymore. I've learned to keep my mouth shut. It's easier that way".

"I used to argue, but now I just put on my shoes an go".

"It's easier now that my daughter is a little older. She can warn me when the wife has bought something new for the house, so I can pretend to notice it and admire it".

"You know, I've got to where I like to lose at cards. This way, I just get yelled at. I don't have to hand over my winnings".

"It's a funny thing. I like my mother-in-law. I do. If I could keep my mother-in-law and get rid of my wife, I'd do it ... The mother-in-law can cook!"

"I don't know where we're going on vacation. The wife hasn't told me yet".

 
No really, I highly recommend not spending your life in a sitcom or a stand-up routine. Like I'm all for being fictional, but go all-in fantasy soulmates if you want to derive your love life from a fictional example.
Hail Mara, Lady of Good Things!
"The only way to cope with something deadly serious is to try to treat it a little lightly." -Madeleine L'Engle

DIASPORA-1963

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Re: Does Love Exist?
« Reply #14 on: April 08, 2016, 02:07:15 pm »
Quote from: Jack;189675
See, here's the thing.

My spouse doesn't make me sick. I enjoy spending time with them. I have plenty of rotten thoughts, but generally they're about how I'm awful and I don't know how they put up with me, and my therapist advises I not wallow in them.

Generally my spouse asks me why I do something rather than asking me to change it without preamble. They then explain why that doesn't work for them and we come to a compromise. It's this awesome relationship technique I learned called communication. It does wonders when you live in real life and not a television sitcom.

(I would know; I grew up in a television sitcom.)

I like my mother-in-law, and because she and her child have good boundaries and we have a small place, she stays in a hotel when she visits.

Maybe it's because I had to wait so damn long to get married in the first place, but I have no interest in getting divorced any time soon. We had a full decade together, both with and without the abusive ex, to learn how we each functioned and how we function together.

The answer is that we're much better together than we are apart. I love them; I derive a lot of happiness from making them happy, more than I do from doing things that make myself happy. Part of this is probably my own issues, which make it hard for me to make myself happy or to be selfish. (It was a Catholic sitcom.) But it doesn't change the fact that I am a happier person with them, I am a more functional person with them, and I am a healthier person with them. They encourage me to do what makes me happy; they give me space to be selfish and have my own needs, which is not something I had in prior relationships or with my family.

I'm of the opinion that that's how relationships should work. If the people involved don't want the other to be happy and healthy, then the relationship is non-functional. What happy and healthy looks like may be different for different people; I don't judge based on outside appearances.

If someone is not happy in a relationship, they should consider leaving it. But the fact that some people are not happy in relationships and decide staying is the best course of action regardless does not mean all relationships are unhappy. That's just bad statistics.

I'm glad for you. I hope that it continues to work and grow.

Most people do, however, live in those sitcoms. Sad but true.
MARK aka CELLVLANVS MAGVS
OMNIA DEPENDET!

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