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Author Topic: Debate topic: Peace  (Read 4442 times)

arete

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Re: Debate topic: Peace
« Reply #45 on: September 02, 2018, 03:43:43 am »
What is your source for your claim that this was a malfunction in the brain?

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When you eat bananas, it's an exception to eat meat.
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Re: Debate topic: Peace
« Reply #46 on: September 02, 2018, 06:15:46 am »
When you eat bananas, it's an exception to eat meat.

Bananas come from only one (well, sort of two) part of the world and were unavailable outside of it until comparatively recently (archaeologically speaking). Most people have eaten meat for far longer than they have eaten bananas.

Owl

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Re: Debate topic: Peace
« Reply #47 on: September 02, 2018, 02:21:36 pm »
Eh, that's not entirely accurate; monkeys and other apes will eat meat *if they need it* because something is lacking in their diet. Usually, this happens when food is scarce, and they need extra nutrients that they normally don't eat.

It's not about being able to get it. Most monkeys and apes *could* have meat all the time, if they wanted it, but they simply don't. Gorillas and chimps occasionally eat meat, but quite often it's abundant and they ignore it.

This is also true for the distant ancestors of humanity. Our more recent ancestors, and of course our own species, have come to eat meat extensively, but for early hominids, it was a rare addition to the diet when food was scarce, not a staple of the diet.
Sorry, that was phrased wrong. I still stand by homo sapiens sapiens having been meat eaters from the beginning, along with many of their predecessors.


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Re: Debate topic: Peace
« Reply #48 on: September 04, 2018, 01:32:29 pm »
When you eat bananas, it's an exception to eat meat.

That's not a source, that's just yet another unsupported assertion.

I know English isn't your first language; are you possibly unclear on what's means when someone asks you to provide a source?

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arete

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Re: Debate topic: Peace
« Reply #49 on: September 04, 2018, 03:05:27 pm »
That's not a source, that's just yet another unsupported assertion.

I know English isn't your first language; are you possibly unclear on what's means when someone asks you to provide a source?

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https://paleoleap.com/human-brains-evolved-meat/

the human brain was different before meat. something must have started the meat craze and the brain changed.
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Owl

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Re: Debate topic: Peace
« Reply #50 on: September 05, 2018, 02:24:00 am »
https://paleoleap.com/human-brains-evolved-meat/

the human brain was different before meat. something must have started the meat craze and the brain changed.
Not the human brain, but that of our predecessor species 2 million years ago.  Homo sapiens sapiens have always been meat eaters.


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Hariti

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Re: Debate topic: Peace
« Reply #51 on: September 05, 2018, 02:49:52 am »
Not the human brain, but that of our predecessor species 2 million years ago.  Homo sapiens sapiens have always been meat eaters.

Are Homo sapiens sapiens the only species that counts as "human?"
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Owl

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Re: Debate topic: Peace
« Reply #52 on: September 05, 2018, 02:57:32 am »
Are Homo sapiens sapiens the only species that counts as "human?"
Good question. What species were around 2 million years ago?  You could certainly make arguments for Neanderthals and Cro-Magnons as humans. But I wouldn’t think it would be easy to pick a specific line to separate. Though, based on the article about the brain growing bigger with meat eating, that brain growth could be a point to pick.


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Noctua

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Re: Debate topic: Peace
« Reply #53 on: September 05, 2018, 05:43:09 pm »
https://paleoleap.com/human-brains-evolved-meat/

the human brain was different before meat. something must have started the meat craze and the brain changed.

See, when I read this article the point that I interpret is that without meat our evolutionary ancestor's brains wouldn't have evolved into modern humans. Eating meat is what enabled the species we evolved from to develop the brains that eventually made us human.

Hariti

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Re: Debate topic: Peace
« Reply #54 on: September 05, 2018, 11:12:49 pm »
See, when I read this article the point that I interpret is that without meat our evolutionary ancestor's brains wouldn't have evolved into modern humans. Eating meat is what enabled the species we evolved from to develop the brains that eventually made us human.

That's basically what it's saying. Which, in fact, is a highly contested point in physical anthropology, but is well supported enough to at least be plausible.

That said, I understand what arete is getting at as well. Eating meat is *not* a long established behavior among humans and our ancestors; modern humans and our closest relatives have always done so, but that's only the last 2 million years; go back further, to our older but still very human like (arguably human, depending on how you define "humanity") ancestors were not meat eaters, at least not with any frequency.

Eating meat *is* a deviant behavior among primates. It's something pretty much only done by the genus homo, except rare cases where apes hunt during times of nutritional scarcity. Certainly, eating meat ever day, as is common in most human cultures, is *highly* abnormal for a primate.
"The worshippers of the gods go to them; to the manes go the ancestor-worshippers; to the Deities who preside over the elements go their worshippers; My devotees come to Me." ... "Whichever devotee desires to adore whatever such Deity with faith, in all such votaries I make that particular faith unshakable. Endowed with that faith, a votary performs the worship of that particular deity and obtains the fruits thereof, these being granted by Me alone." - Sri Krishna

Yei

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Re: Debate topic: Peace
« Reply #55 on: September 06, 2018, 05:56:57 pm »
That's basically what it's saying. Which, in fact, is a highly contested point in physical anthropology, but is well supported enough to at least be plausible.

That said, I understand what arete is getting at as well. Eating meat is *not* a long established behavior among humans and our ancestors; modern humans and our closest relatives have always done so, but that's only the last 2 million years; go back further, to our older but still very human like (arguably human, depending on how you define "humanity") ancestors were not meat eaters, at least not with any frequency.

Eating meat *is* a deviant behavior among primates. It's something pretty much only done by the genus homo, except rare cases where apes hunt during times of nutritional scarcity. Certainly, eating meat ever day, as is common in most human cultures, is *highly* abnormal for a primate.

At this point I'd like to note that predation and meat eating are not really all that closely linked to peace and war. Predation occurs between species (hunting) while warfare and conflict occur within species, the human species in this case. We rarely, if ever, war to eat each other, and human conflicts are overwhelmingly either ideological and territorial. Within species conflict occurs regardless of its diet, and many herbivores fight between themselves.

It is also worth noting that herbivores can be quite dangerous. In Africa, plant eating hippos kill more people than any other large animal, and the Water Buffalo is also pretty dangerous. I also know that bison can be quite aggressive if people get to close. Bulls, of course, also have a well deserved reputation for violence. By contrast, we tend to live with predators, such as cats and dogs, without much trouble for the most part.

Herbivore does not mean harmless.

Hariti

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Re: Debate topic: Peace
« Reply #56 on: September 06, 2018, 07:37:53 pm »
Herbivore does not mean harmless.

Certainly not!
"The worshippers of the gods go to them; to the manes go the ancestor-worshippers; to the Deities who preside over the elements go their worshippers; My devotees come to Me." ... "Whichever devotee desires to adore whatever such Deity with faith, in all such votaries I make that particular faith unshakable. Endowed with that faith, a votary performs the worship of that particular deity and obtains the fruits thereof, these being granted by Me alone." - Sri Krishna

Ashmire

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Re: Debate topic: Peace
« Reply #57 on: September 07, 2018, 12:15:06 pm »
It is also worth noting that herbivores can be quite dangerous.

Herbivore does not mean harmless.

I concur.  My experiences in wildlife rescue definitely made me feel less bad about eating meat from primarily ( I say primarily because there seems to be evidence now that even deer are not pure herbivores )herbivorous species.  The predatory ones were capable of understanding intent to help, the "gentle" herbivores would try to take pieces off you no matter what.  But think what it would do to your psyche to always know your survival depends on leaving one of your friends to get eaten? 

Hariti

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Re: Debate topic: Peace
« Reply #58 on: September 07, 2018, 02:23:59 pm »
( I say primarily because there seems to be evidence now that even deer are not pure herbivores )

That's not really accurate. Scientists have *always* known that herbivores will eat meat if they are nutritionally stressed. People on the internet are making it into a "new" thing as a political tool to attack vegetarians. The word "herbivore" in scientific usage, doesn't mean what the general public thinks it means, that doesn't mean that deer, cows, and other ruminants aren't herbivores.

A herbivore is any animal that can achieve maximum dietary efficiency by eating only plants. Likewise, a carnivore is any animal that can achieve maximum dietary efficiency eating only meat. There are such things as "obligate carnivores" which *require* meat for survival, but most carnivores aren't in that category. Likewise, there are obligate herbivores, which require plants to survive. Most herbivores, unlike carnivores, *are* obligates.

For example, a wolf could live with an entirely vegan diet. It wouldn't starve or die, and could be raised from birth to old age on nothing but veggies. However, it's body would be under stress as a result of such a diet, and it would be stunted as a result. So, we don't consider wolves omnivores, because they can't be *healthy* on an all plant diet; they need their diet to be strong and have optimal results, even if they can live without it. Wolves can also live entirely without plants, eating only meat, and still be healthy.

A deer, unlike a wolf, doesn't need meat to be healthy. In fact, the optimal diet for a deer is entirely plant based, and meat is an inefficient source of nutrition for it. It *can* eat meat, but it's still a herbivore because it's entire digestive system (as well as the rest of it's body) is designed for eating plants. A deer that eats only meat is going to die, a deer that eats only plants is going to live, and a deer that eats plants as well as a lot of meat will be *less* healthy than one who eats mostly (or only) plants.

Humans, bears, and other omnivores can eat meat or plants. Ideally, we need them in about equal measure, which is what makes us different from deer OR wolves. However, we can live by eating only vegetables or only meat (although the latter is much more difficult). As such we're considered omnivores.

Basically, yeah, herbivores don't die if they eat meat. They even do it on purpose occasionally, when they are lacking specific nutrient in their diet. However, their *optimum* healthy diet, for maximum efficiency, is an all plant diet. So, deer are herbivores, not carnivores or omnivores.
"The worshippers of the gods go to them; to the manes go the ancestor-worshippers; to the Deities who preside over the elements go their worshippers; My devotees come to Me." ... "Whichever devotee desires to adore whatever such Deity with faith, in all such votaries I make that particular faith unshakable. Endowed with that faith, a votary performs the worship of that particular deity and obtains the fruits thereof, these being granted by Me alone." - Sri Krishna

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