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Author Topic: Debate topic: Peace  (Read 3974 times)

Nymree

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Debate topic: Peace
« on: December 08, 2017, 10:32:15 am »
Peace has been strived for by the majority of cultures throughout history: whether it be political or religious, domestic or national, peace seems to have both presence and value in human life.

But why does humanity value peace? This is something particularly interesting to me recently as I've begun to explore Neodruidry, but also in general since I'm a bit of a mediator.

Do you value peace? Why, or why not? Do you believe in a certain type of peace, such as positive or negative forms? Do you believe global peace is attainable?

I'd like to provoke a debate on this, since it's an interesting topic to me and I hope it's interesting to others here too :)

Blessed Be,

 Nymree

Nymree

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Re: Debate topic: Peace
« Reply #1 on: December 08, 2017, 10:39:46 am »
Peace has been strived for by the majority of cultures throughout history: whether it be political or religious, domestic or national, peace seems to have both presence and value in human life.

Also: I am of course assuming the value of peace in human society - which is already very generalised - so this statement is also up for debate.

Darkhawk

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Re: Debate topic: Peace
« Reply #2 on: December 08, 2017, 12:10:59 pm »
But why does humanity value peace?

I mean, in general, the whole "not being murdered all the time" thing tends to lead to productive results, even for the people who wouldn't have been murdered.
as the water grinds the stone
we rise and fall
as our ashes turn to dust
we shine like stars    - Covenant, "Bullet"

Uneryx

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Re: Debate topic: Peace
« Reply #3 on: December 08, 2017, 01:50:18 pm »
Peace has been strived for by the majority of cultures throughout history: whether it be political or religious, domestic or national, peace seems to have both presence and value in human life.

But why does humanity value peace? This is something particularly interesting to me recently as I've begun to explore Neodruidry, but also in general since I'm a bit of a mediator.

Do you value peace? Why, or why not? Do you believe in a certain type of peace, such as positive or negative forms? Do you believe global peace is attainable?

I'd like to provoke a debate on this, since it's an interesting topic to me and I hope it's interesting to others here too :)

Blessed Be,

 Nymree

We are, deep down, pack animals. Humans thrive as a group, and so as the group expands to include nations, allies and globalization, peace is sought after as a value because it creates harmony within the pack. Peace is an easier way to gain more resources, especially now that society says that peace and diplomacy and negotiation are virtuous, rather than simply taking what you want.

Peace is valued because Peace keeps the wheels of capitalism running smoothly. Why fight it out when you can just trade your way out?

Peace is valued because, in times of peace, we have made advances in physical comforts and in times of peace we can meet the needs of more people. The pack survives as a whole.

(also, not dying and not causing the suffering of millions of people are super great and I really wish that the powers at play would recognize that, I mean its bad enough that the Yazidi people got put into slavery, we don't need to add to their misery by bombing the living shit out of them, right? Right?)

CoyoteFeathers

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Re: Debate topic: Peace
« Reply #4 on: December 08, 2017, 08:12:55 pm »
We are, deep down, pack animals. Humans thrive as a group, and so as the group expands to include nations, allies and globalization, peace is sought after as a value because it creates harmony within the pack. Peace is an easier way to gain more resources, especially now that society says that peace and diplomacy and negotiation are virtuous, rather than simply taking what you want.

Peace is valued because Peace keeps the wheels of capitalism running smoothly. Why fight it out when you can just trade your way out?

Peace is valued because, in times of peace, we have made advances in physical comforts and in times of peace we can meet the needs of more people. The pack survives as a whole.

(also, not dying and not causing the suffering of millions of people are super great and I really wish that the powers at play would recognize that, I mean its bad enough that the Yazidi people got put into slavery, we don't need to add to their misery by bombing the living shit out of them, right? Right?)

I'd argue that times of war have given us just as many technological advances as peacetime, and not just with weapons. The internet sprung from an internal military network, modern freeze-drying was invented during WWII, duct tape, GPS, etc, etc. War has kept humanity on its toes, always inventing, and sometimes that wartime inventing has led to quality of life improvements.

Don't get me wrong, I'd much rather be living in a world where nuclear weapons didn't exist. But if there was no struggle in society- internal or external- there would be no reason for advancement. Without hunger, sickness, or disaster, we wouldn't have a reason to advance past that balance of basic subsistence and comfort. We wouldn't have invented agriculture, and people would not have settled down into full societies with cultures and religions as complex as they are today.

But the thing that drives humanity to invent through the times of struggle is the idea of peace, and that's what I think is really valuable. Inventions to defeat enemies to end a war and gain resources, medicine to kill sickness, tools to lessen our work load- all made in times of strife with the idea of peace in mind. While I don't believe world peace can be attained on our current trajectory (with overpopulation causing hunger, deforestation and pollution ruining the planet, and just general political turmoil), it's a nice idea, and it's what keeps us going and inventing through the struggle. So in my opinion, really the value of peace is the idea of it and the hope and determination it brings, not necessarily *having* it.

CoyoteFeathers

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Re: Debate topic: Peace
« Reply #5 on: December 08, 2017, 08:19:19 pm »

I'd also add the capitalism thrives on war. The military-industrial complex booms during times of war. The area I live in has been in decline since the end of the Cold War because the main employer is a government contractor that makes submarines. The US government has started conflicts or worked behind the scenes to support corporations; trying to gain control of oil in the Middle East in the second half of the 20th century through now and various conflicts in Latin America in the first half of the 20th century known as the "Banana Wars" serve to illustrate that.

Yei

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Re: Debate topic: Peace
« Reply #6 on: December 09, 2017, 06:29:27 am »
Peace has been strived for by the majority of cultures throughout history: whether it be political or religious, domestic or national, peace seems to have both presence and value in human life.

But why does humanity value peace? This is something particularly interesting to me recently as I've begun to explore Neodruidry, but also in general since I'm a bit of a mediator.

Do you value peace? Why, or why not? Do you believe in a certain type of peace, such as positive or negative forms? Do you believe global peace is attainable?

I'd like to provoke a debate on this, since it's an interesting topic to me and I hope it's interesting to others here too :)

Blessed Be,

 Nymree

I'm very suspicious of modern calls for 'peace.' It is far to often preached by those who have no intention of obeying their own principles. To me, when a modern nation starts talking about peace I start wondering who they are about to attack. The US is notorious for this, making vague proclamations about peace, while being one of the most heavily armed and aggressive nations on earth, often against nations that are not even close to being a threat.

I think what's going on, is that the call to peace excuses/legitimises violence, by implicitly blaming the other 'party' as being un-peaceful, while excusing militarism and aggression by the side that issues the proclamation. However, this can also affect domestic affairs. Powerful governments can use the peaceful/violent dichotomy to justify repression against civilian populations. Any resistance by said population is used to retroactively excuse previous violence, and provides further legitimacy to state terrorism. I see this with the US all the time, the still recent NO-DAPL movement being an excellent example.

If they just attacked people for the glory or profit, they wouldn't be any nicer, but at least I'd respect their honesty.

Nymree

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Re: Debate topic: Peace
« Reply #7 on: December 09, 2017, 11:35:30 am »
Peace has been strived for by the majority of cultures throughout history: whether it be political or religious, domestic or national, peace seems to have both presence and value in human life.

But why does humanity value peace?

First I'd just like to thank everybody for their contributions so far - there have been some great points raised here.

I'd like to highlight one point already raised here, and that is the dynamic between peace and conflict in which both seem to depend on the other. Conflicts are initiated with the end goal of peace - even if that peace is personal or selfish, benefitting only the winner through gaining of resources or power to enhance stability and primacy over other factions. In the same way, peace supplies invention, intellectualism and advancement for those times of conflict, and vice versa.

Another interesting idea to feed into this is the concept of personal peace. I don't believe that any human being could sustain a state of perpetual happiness or contentment - we aren't built to remain in one state for our whole lives. In this way, conflict provides us individually with opportunities to grow, learn, develop and mature, if we survive it. Similarly, we might extent this understanding to a global scale; through conflict, we are afforded opportunities to develop as a species and grow. Maybe the mediatory point here would be the concept of "just war", although there is always the counterpoint of asking if ANY conflict or war can be justifiable from an ethical perspective.

Just throwing some more ideas out there. Thanks to everyone for your replies already - I've really enjoyed reading through this :)

Blessed be x

Hariti

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Re: Debate topic: Peace
« Reply #8 on: December 09, 2017, 03:30:07 pm »
Do you value peace? Why, or why not? Do you believe in a certain type of peace, such as positive or negative forms? Do you believe global peace is attainable?

Yes, I value peace. Human life is sacred, and killing is wasteful. There is only one type of peace, as far as I am aware; if you have "peace" that is created by fear or imposed by threats, that's not really peace in my opinion. REAL peace has to be voluntary and results from a genuine desire to avoid war on both sides. I do not beleive that global peace is possible, because humans have free will and thus sometimes act in evil ways. Ignoring evil for the sake of "peace" only allows others to suffer, and so war is sometimes just and necessary, (yet nonethless wasteful and tragic).
"The worshippers of the gods go to them; to the manes go the ancestor-worshippers; to the Deities who preside over the elements go their worshippers; My devotees come to Me." ... "Whichever devotee desires to adore whatever such Deity with faith, in all such votaries I make that particular faith unshakable. Endowed with that faith, a votary performs the worship of that particular deity and obtains the fruits thereof, these being granted by Me alone." - Sri Krishna

Yei

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Re: Debate topic: Peace
« Reply #9 on: December 10, 2017, 06:16:29 am »
Yes, I value peace. Human life is sacred, and killing is wasteful. There is only one type of peace, as far as I am aware; if you have "peace" that is created by fear or imposed by threats, that's not really peace in my opinion. REAL peace has to be voluntary and results from a genuine desire to avoid war on both sides. I do not beleive that global peace is possible, because humans have free will and thus sometimes act in evil ways. Ignoring evil for the sake of "peace" only allows others to suffer, and so war is sometimes just and necessary, (yet nonethless wasteful and tragic).






It took me ages to figure out how to embed that video. I gave up and posted a link, and it did it anyway.

Waldhexe

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Re: Debate topic: Peace
« Reply #10 on: December 10, 2017, 02:40:39 pm »
Another interesting idea to feed into this is the concept of personal peace. I don't believe that any human being could sustain a state of perpetual happiness or contentment - we aren't built to remain in one state for our whole lives.
I was also thinking about the different dimensions of the word. Maybe it spiritually it could be viewed as a goal for meditation, like a "the road is the goal" kind of thing...

As many have pointed out it's unlikely that we will achieve world peace for a longer period or even achieve a fully peaceful personal life.

But it could be an interesting goal to experience peace just for a few minutes in meditation...?

Or it could be a goal for a group to have nonviolent communication in a specific setting...?

MeadowRae

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Re: Debate topic: Peace
« Reply #11 on: December 11, 2017, 10:17:36 am »
Peace has been strived for by the majority of cultures throughout history: whether it be political or religious, domestic or national, peace seems to have both presence and value in human life.

But why does humanity value peace? This is something particularly interesting to me recently as I've begun to explore Neodruidry, but also in general since I'm a bit of a mediator.

Do you value peace? Why, or why not? Do you believe in a certain type of peace, such as positive or negative forms? Do you believe global peace is attainable?

I'd like to provoke a debate on this, since it's an interesting topic to me and I hope it's interesting to others here too :)

Blessed Be,

 Nymree

I value Peace. I think that Peace is less so a lack of conflict, but the ability to navigate conflict with understanding. I don't think that peace even necessarily implies a lack of bloodshed, rather it indicates that Justice is being meted out truthfully. On a personal level I cannot imagine a peace that involves avoiding conflict. That is fear-based and the opposite of peace. I say this because I feel that so many people misunderstand peace to be a lack of conflict.
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Sefiru

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Re: Debate topic: Peace
« Reply #12 on: December 12, 2017, 06:42:37 pm »
Without hunger, sickness, or disaster, we wouldn't have a reason to advance past that balance of basic subsistence and comfort.

I'm going to partly disagree with this. There is another, very powerful motivator for invention: play.

This doesn't get a lot of visibility in history because play used to be considered frivolous and not suited for 'serious' study (maybe it still is), but you can see it all over the Internet today.

Sure, people will address their physical safety and well-being first, but once they have those, and some spare resources, they will start making stuff just for the fun of it, or just to see if they can make it work. I doubt that the guy who built this dingus:



did so out of any pressing need or danger.

Preyna

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Re: Debate topic: Peace
« Reply #13 on: December 13, 2017, 06:57:43 pm »
I'm going to partly disagree with this. There is another, very powerful motivator for invention: play.

This doesn't get a lot of visibility in history because play used to be considered frivolous and not suited for 'serious' study (maybe it still is), but you can see it all over the Internet today.

Sure, people will address their physical safety and well-being first, but once they have those, and some spare resources, they will start making stuff just for the fun of it, or just to see if they can make it work. I doubt that the guy who built this dingus:



did so out of any pressing need or danger.
Oh goodness!  I love Wintergatan's marble machine!  Perfect example of frivolous invention that may have overreaching potential.  Hunger, shelter, danger and the overall immediacy of survival tend to hasten developments faster, but you are absolutely right that once initial needs are met we, as a people, start to concentrate on our innate curiosities.  And "play"/"invention"/creativity would and should take over.

The evolution of music  players is a prime example.  Gramophone, record player, tape deck, CD player, mp3 player.  All devices redesigning a vehicle for music.  Some may claim music as superfluous ( I am not one, though), but our development of music devices has had a huge influence on how we have shaped our societies.

In my opinion peace can be equated with contentment.  All people have differences and their own opinions, and while these can create conflict, they are also the key components to our advancement as a people on the whole.  If we all agreed the same on every little thing, we'd have a harder time finding the flaws to fix.  At least, IMHO.

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Lumpino

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Re: Debate topic: Peace
« Reply #14 on: January 07, 2018, 02:03:18 am »
I'd also add the capitalism thrives on war. The military-industrial complex booms during times of war. The area I live in has been in decline since the end of the Cold War because the main employer is a government contractor that makes submarines. The US government has started conflicts or worked behind the scenes to support corporations; trying to gain control of oil in the Middle East in the second half of the 20th century through now and various conflicts in Latin America in the first half of the 20th century known as the "Banana Wars" serve to illustrate that.

Not only capitalism.  :-\ What about communism? War on Chalkingol   between commuinst China nad communist Russia?  Or war between China and Vietnam 17. 2. 1979 – 16. 3. 1979.  Angola, Mosambik, Ethiopia... and many others.  :P

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