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Author Topic: General/Non-Specific: White Lighters Versus The Dark Arts  (Read 5066 times)

RandallS

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Re: White Lighters Versus The Dark Arts
« Reply #15 on: December 11, 2018, 05:29:16 pm »
So I did a little reading. It sounds like this guy I knew was more of a Theistic Satanist versus a LaVeyan one. I thought he called himself a LaVeyan, but maybe he just meant that he read LaVey's works. Would you not call Theistic Satanists practitioners of the Dark Arts? Is there even such a term, really?

Actually, I don't think I would call anyone outside of Harry Potter fiction a practitioner of the dark arts. Sure, magic can be used to harm, but often the very same magic can be used to help. I don't think magic is intrinsically dark or light. Magic is just a tool. Like most tools, it can be used to help or harm. For example, I can use a screwdriver to fix something or I can use it to poke someone's eye out. The screwdriver isn't good or evil, it is just a tool than can be used to do good things or bad things.  Magic isn't any different.

Even in Harry potter, magic considered light could be used to cause harm and magic considered dark could be used to accomplish good ends. Even the unforgivables could be used for good. For example, the imperious curse could be used to make someone kill their family or rob a business for you. However, it could also be used to force someone frozen by panic in a dangerous position to move out of danger.
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Donal2018

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Re: White Lighters Versus The Dark Arts
« Reply #16 on: December 11, 2018, 06:18:08 pm »
Actually, I don't think I would call anyone outside of Harry Potter fiction a practitioner of the dark arts. Sure, magic can be used to harm, but often the very same magic can be used to help. I don't think magic is intrinsically dark or light. Magic is just a tool. Like most tools, it can be used to help or harm. For example, I can use a screwdriver to fix something or I can use it to poke someone's eye out. The screwdriver isn't good or evil, it is just a tool than can be used to do good things or bad things.  Magic isn't any different.

Even in Harry potter, magic considered light could be used to cause harm and magic considered dark could be used to accomplish good ends. Even the unforgivables could be used for good. For example, the imperious curse could be used to make someone kill their family or rob a business for you. However, it could also be used to force someone frozen by panic in a dangerous position to move out of danger.

Yes, I think that is a good perspective. Magic is a tool and can be used for a variety of purposes. It seems to be the prevailing view about magic amongst pagans, which is something I am drawn to.

I am not even asserting there really is some such thing as "dark arts". I maybe used it as a provocative term to start a conversation more than for any other purpose. I do think that there are some people who might subscribe to a concept of "dark arts", like the Satanist that I knew. He was clearly practicing magic with a definite idea of harming others. I don't think that he would reject the term "dark arts" out of hand. He might actually revel in it. But this guy seems to be a rare and atypical case, and probably would not even be categorized as a pagan.

My initial question was are there many (or any) of these types folks in the pagan community? The answer seems to be "no" or "rarely". It seems to be a non-starter discussion. I am not trying to imply that magic is in any way inherently bad. Rather that it *could* be used for bad purposes, and there may be some who have a worldview that asserts this as a valid or even primary use for magic. Despite the existence of the guy I knew in College, it seems that his type of practice might be outside of the normal category of paganism, which is probably a good thing.

Thanks for your response.

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Re: White Lighters Versus The Dark Arts
« Reply #17 on: December 11, 2018, 06:32:10 pm »
Well, I am solitary.  Many years ago you would run across some very negative type people if you attended open groups and such.  I did not have a problem with Christianity and many pagan and Wiccan groups did not accept me because of it.  Most were ethical.  One decided to date a man I thought was pretty dark.

It was more common then to see "darker" men trying to get young women to skyclad services.  They were not really evil per say, just exploitive.  I am still wary of male Pagans, as are my sisters.  We live in Southeastern US, in the Bible belt.  But we were freer sexually than some other parts of the country.  My husband is a Yankee, he says up north you can't get them out of their sweaters and down here you can't keep them in their bikinis.

I believe in a God and a Goddess.  I also believe we could be living in the greatest RPG ever made.  My husband is Agnostic. But yes some people believe that while you have to a good person to get gifts and powers from the Christian God, the pagan deities will just load you up with power you can do whatever with.

Maybe I am a whitelighter.  I believe your mileage may vary depending on where you try to throw said power and with what intent.

I just wanted to say that I appreciate your post. I am in the Northeast, so there do seem to be significant differences in regional customs and cultures. There does seem to be a prudishness and repression in that Yankee/New Englander culture. I was wondering how you got into paganism in the South, since it seems to be hard to get information on it in that type of society? Forgive me if you have explained this elsewhere. I think I remember you writing elsewhere that you got your practices from your family. I also liked the statement you made that we might be living in the greatest RPG ever made. As an old table-top player, that kind of warmed my heart. I find it it to be a hopeful idea. Anyway, thanks for posting here on this thread.
« Last Edit: December 11, 2018, 06:34:16 pm by Donal2018 »

RitaCeleste

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Re: White Lighters Versus The Dark Arts
« Reply #18 on: December 11, 2018, 07:05:56 pm »
Yes, you are right, of course, the Old Testament God is a vengeful God. I prefer the compassion of Jesus, but that is just me. I am a Universalist though. I try to respect most human religions even I do not subscribe to their views and beliefs. I am not a big fan of authoritarian deities and religions. I think pagan style beliefs are often (not always) more compatible with democracy and freedom of thought. Democracy and freedom mean a lot to me, and I am interested in religious ideas that are compatible with that. Anyway, you are right, the Christian God is not all sunshine and flowers either, but probably seems more compassionate and forgiving than the Father God of the Old Testament.

The Christian God is the very same God as in the Old Testament.  He seems to have taken quite the shine to Jesus.  Jesus may speak on your behalf and perhaps God will go easier on you.  If God has taken a shine to any of those whitelighters, they are well defended.  Well, that's the way I see it anyways.  I don't really care how many people see it differently.  Sometimes the whole world really is wrong and you are not.

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Re: White Lighters Versus The Dark Arts
« Reply #19 on: December 11, 2018, 07:12:05 pm »
The Christian God is the very same God as in the Old Testament.  He seems to have taken quite the shine to Jesus.  Jesus may speak on your behalf and perhaps God will go easier on you.  If God has taken a shine to any of those whitelighters, they are well defended.  Well, that's the way I see it anyways.  I don't really care how many people see it differently.  Sometimes the whole world really is wrong and you are not.

That is it in a nutshell. I was raised Catholic, so, that. I wonder if the biblical God would take a shine to pagan whitelighters, or if the paganish aspect is too far out-of-bounds.

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Re: White Lighters Versus The Dark Arts
« Reply #20 on: December 11, 2018, 08:08:05 pm »
That is it in a nutshell. I was raised Catholic, so, that. I wonder if the biblical God would take a shine to pagan whitelighters, or if the paganish aspect is too far out-of-bounds.

The funny thing is, God sometimes takes a shine to people of different faiths and of different appearances. You can't tell God who to like and you never can tell who He really likes (until you step in it, of course).  Good manners are always highly recommended.

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Re: White Lighters Versus The Dark Arts
« Reply #21 on: December 11, 2018, 08:39:48 pm »
I just wanted to say that I appreciate your post. I am in the Northeast, so there do seem to be significant differences in regional customs and cultures. There does seem to be a prudishness and repression in that Yankee/New Englander culture. I was wondering how you got into paganism in the South, since it seems to be hard to get information on it in that type of society? Forgive me if you have explained this elsewhere. I think I remember you writing elsewhere that you got your practices from your family. I also liked the statement you made that we might be living in the greatest RPG ever made. As an old table-top player, that kind of warmed my heart. I find it it to be a hopeful idea. Anyway, thanks for posting here on this thread.

Old fairytales were very popular in the Southeast when I was young, I'm 45 now.  But my generation and on back remember storytelling as an artform and something to do when nothing was on TV or you were out in the fields but that was more singing while working, maybe a story at lunch.

The middle class and up read a lot for entertainment.  Before computers, we mail ordered our books.  But some Southerners love Cons and Renaissance Fairs and the like.  So much of our pagan studies involve fairytales, books, and even a little hoodoo from family members.  My family never made hoodoo bags or tried to copy seals.  But my mother has several passages/prayers from the Bible she can use as well as any witch can cast a spell.  Some of those prayers were shown to her by her great aunts.

I looked into hoodoo and I understand that they read the Bible between the lines and use prayers and recipes to ask God most favorable for what they need or want.

One can always find young people interested in Wicca and Paganism. Its harder to find a decent group or form one.  I lived in Jacksonville Flordia when I found a few groups who had open meetings and shops and such.  But I was not accepted.  My mother-in-law studied with these people and she is difficult to say the least.  It was partly that, and partly that they felt my energy was too Christian to be of value or something.  I saw her boyfriend, I wasn't missing much.  He creeped me out.

My sisters and I stay to ourselves.  The only safe place to keep a secret is in your own head.  My grandfather was a doctor but our parents were into natural healing with plants and such.  So we can read medical terms and that kind of information well.  That makes it easier to learn about herbal healing.  And we are all of the "Whatever works best." school of thought.  We are not shy about meds from doctors either.  If it works best, it works best.

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Re: White Lighters Versus The Dark Arts
« Reply #22 on: December 11, 2018, 10:30:22 pm »
Old fairytales were very popular in the Southeast when I was young, I'm 45 now.  But my generation and on back remember storytelling as an artform and something to do when nothing was on TV or you were out in the fields but that was more singing while working, maybe a story at lunch.

The middle class and up read a lot for entertainment.  Before computers, we mail ordered our books.  But some Southerners love Cons and Renaissance Fairs and the like.  So much of our pagan studies involve fairytales, books, and even a little hoodoo from family members.  My family never made hoodoo bags or tried to copy seals.  But my mother has several passages/prayers from the Bible she can use as well as any witch can cast a spell.  Some of those prayers were shown to her by her great aunts.

I looked into hoodoo and I understand that they read the Bible between the lines and use prayers and recipes to ask God most favorable for what they need or want.

One can always find young people interested in Wicca and Paganism. Its harder to find a decent group or form one.  I lived in Jacksonville Flordia when I found a few groups who had open meetings and shops and such.  But I was not accepted.  My mother-in-law studied with these people and she is difficult to say the least.  It was partly that, and partly that they felt my energy was too Christian to be of value or something.  I saw her boyfriend, I wasn't missing much.  He creeped me out.

My sisters and I stay to ourselves.  The only safe place to keep a secret is in your own head.  My grandfather was a doctor but our parents were into natural healing with plants and such.  So we can read medical terms and that kind of information well.  That makes it easier to learn about herbal healing.  And we are all of the "Whatever works best." school of thought.  We are not shy about meds from doctors either.  If it works best, it works best.

Yes, thanks for the response. My personal experience of paganism is mostly from books and personal gnosis. My path towards paganism has not been direct. It is a long story, but I will cut it down to a few points.

I was raised Catholic, so there was already a predisposition to a certain mysticism. The veneration of Saints and calling on particular Patron Saints for a particular purpose resembles a lot of what I have seen of pagans relating to specific deities for specific reasons (I might appeal to a Healing Goddess to treat an illness, rather than pray to a Saint for a cure, for example).

In addition to this, I was taught arts and sciences in school, and developed a strong sense of scientific skepticism alongside the Catholicism. The science has stayed with me for my entire life and has run in parallel to any spiritual beliefs or non-beliefs that I have had.

I originally studied Biology and Chemistry at the University, but ended up focusing on the History and Sociology of Science. So, my personal beliefs or non-beliefs have always been tempered by a degree of skepticism. I call myself an "open-minded skeptic", by which I mean that I doubt everything, but I am willing to discuss anything.

I had certain spiritual experiences in later life that I will not detail at this point. It brought me back to a reverence that I had as a kid for mythology and unusual ideas that I had read about, from lateral thinking to lucid dreaming to self-hypnosis, what I might call "alternative psychology". This stuff made me a sort of "proto-pagan" as a kid, but it did not come to fuller fruition until later in life when I had these spiritual experiences.

Anyway, this brought me around to wanting to be closer to Nature and to have a more natural relation to Deity andthe Sacred that is not dictated so much by authority. So, that is a little bit about me that I thought I would write at this time and place. I might write in more detail about this on another Thread at some point, or as part of a personal Blog here, if they allow Blogs. I am just trying to find my feet here on these Message Boards. I expect that getting to know this place and finding my place within it will be a process and a project, not one solved in one moment or a single post.


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Re: White Lighters Versus The Dark Arts
« Reply #23 on: December 12, 2018, 04:24:36 pm »
Anyway, this brought me around to wanting to be closer to Nature and to have a more natural relation to Deity andthe Sacred that is not dictated so much by authority. So, that is a little bit about me that I thought I would write at this time and place. I might write in more detail about this on another Thread at some point, or as part of a personal Blog here, if they allow Blogs. I am just trying to find my feet here on these Message Boards. I expect that getting to know this place and finding my place within it will be a process and a project, not one solved in one moment or a single post.

I find that being solitary and looking inward allows me the most freedom.  Perhaps I may not have people to pat me on the back and tell me I am really very good at this.  Perhaps it will just be simple workings for me.  I am really into cards right now.  My pendulum and my guides are being difficult.  I think it is to force me to learn to read the cards for myself. 

I can do energy healings but for me that is just more like being a handy set of rabbit ears.  It requires no medical knowledge or training.  I am not going to get better at it from reading a book or studying.  I am as good as the Lord decides I am and that is it.  Reading books gives me ideas for things I could do, like bless food.  I always get hungry and forget to try and zap it.  I suppose practice would help.

I have never been big on reading the Bible.  I ended up spending most of time raising my kids.  Now I find they are old enough to need more teaching in this area.  I am trying to sort out how to teach them skills and perhaps philosophies to help them along.  You know without getting them bogged down with,"Do this or your soul will burn forever in Hellfire!"  I want them to believe how they wish.  But philosophies that work to encourage thinking and doing are good.

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Re: White Lighters Versus The Dark Arts
« Reply #24 on: December 12, 2018, 04:52:53 pm »
I can do energy healings but for me that is just more like being a handy set of rabbit ears.  It requires no medical knowledge or training.  I am not going to get better at it from reading a book or studying.  I am as good as the Lord decides I am and that is it.  Reading books gives me ideas for things I could do, like bless food.  I always get hungry and forget to try and zap it.  I suppose practice would help.

I like to add that people keep asking me what energy healings can do.  When I was younger I thought it was mostly spiritual things.  Now I prefer to say, "I don't know." "It should at the very least work as well as prayer." Privately, I believe it can do anything.  I don't want to limit its potential by my own belief in limits.  Perhaps I should say something more inspiring to the potential guinea pigs so their beliefs in limits don't get in the way.

Its a slippery slope.  "Yes it could heal your cancer, but it may not, keep going to the doctor until he says stop."  Which do you think would be a better thing to say?  I think I like the doctor one.

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Re: White Lighters Versus The Dark Arts
« Reply #25 on: December 12, 2018, 05:20:06 pm »
I like to add that people keep asking me what energy healings can do.  When I was younger I thought it was mostly spiritual things.  Now I prefer to say, "I don't know." "It should at the very least work as well as prayer."

There are laws about providing medical advice if you are not a certified professional in the field, same thing about offering legal advice if you are not a lawyer. They carry some very stiff penalties usually if you get it wrong. You should look very closely at laws in your state, county, and town, before answering any specific medical question or providing anything that might count as medical advice. (Because all three may have different limitations or requirements.)

(You can look at the language herbalists use, sometimes acupuncturists, depending on their legal certification status, for some ideas, but you have to modify for your specific location.) 

Usually the safest thing is to say something like "You should keep consulting with the appropriate medical professionals, but I believe energy healing can support your body and improve healing in conjunction with proper medical care". "It should work at least as well as prayer" is probably fine.
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Re: White Lighters Versus The Dark Arts
« Reply #26 on: December 12, 2018, 07:28:12 pm »
There are laws about providing medical advice if you are not a certified professional in the field, same thing about offering legal advice if you are not a lawyer. They carry some very stiff penalties usually if you get it wrong. You should look very closely at laws in your state, county, and town, before answering any specific medical question or providing anything that might count as medical advice. (Because all three may have different limitations or requirements.)

(You can look at the language herbalists use, sometimes acupuncturists, depending on their legal certification status, for some ideas, but you have to modify for your specific location.) 

Usually the safest thing is to say something like "You should keep consulting with the appropriate medical professionals, but I believe energy healing can support your body and improve healing in conjunction with proper medical care". "It should work at least as well as prayer" is probably fine.

Studies have shown energy healing to help much like prayer.  Since there are studies, I'll stick with that. 

My kids got suckered in going to a church to see a traveling preacher.  He acted one way at the school so she went and got something else.  He tricked my autistic daughter into going up to be "saved" and he pushed on her head.  We gather she was supposed to fall down.  She just stood there glaring at him.  She said he had no juice and does not understand what he thought he was doing or why the others went along with it.

I'd guess around here, if I say its a God thing, I am totally off the hook.

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Re: White Lighters Versus The Dark Arts
« Reply #27 on: December 12, 2018, 07:44:44 pm »
There are laws about providing medical advice if you are not a certified professional in the field, same thing about offering legal advice if you are not a lawyer. They carry some very stiff penalties usually if you get it wrong. You should look very closely at laws in your state, county, and town, before answering any specific medical question or providing anything that might count as medical advice. (Because all three may have different limitations or requirements.)

(You can look at the language herbalists use, sometimes acupuncturists, depending on their legal certification status, for some ideas, but you have to modify for your specific location.) 

Usually the safest thing is to say something like "You should keep consulting with the appropriate medical professionals, but I believe energy healing can support your body and improve healing in conjunction with proper medical care". "It should work at least as well as prayer" is probably fine.

I will also stress that they see real doctors as well.  I think around here that one bears repeating often.  No one wants someone to jump up and declare themselves healed and stop taking their meds and going to the doctor.

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