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Author Topic: General/Non-Specific: White Lighters Versus The Dark Arts  (Read 5068 times)

Donal2018

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White Lighters Versus The Dark Arts
« on: December 08, 2018, 12:38:43 am »
I am pretty much a Solitary Practitioner who has only had casual interactions with Pagan Groups and other similar social interactions. So my social experience with Paganism is limited. That said, I was wondering if in the Pagan Community there is a significant sense of factionalism between so-called "White Lighters" versus those who practice the "Dark Arts", or have a more nihilistic worldview. I have read a bit about this, but I am wondering if it is a real "thing".

I am not just talking about a distinction between so-called "Fluffy Bunny" types and those who are more "serious" about their practices (although I am open to discussion on that topic as well). What I am really driving at is a distinction between different philosophies or outlooks, ranging from humanistic, compassionate views, to more purely selfish, "will to power" types of worldviews. I am just curious to know more about this. Thanks in advance for any responses.

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Re: White Lighters Versus The Dark Arts
« Reply #1 on: December 08, 2018, 04:12:03 pm »
That said, I was wondering if in the Pagan Community there is a significant sense of factionalism between so-called "White Lighters" versus those who practice the "Dark Arts", or have a more nihilistic worldview. I have read a bit about this, but I am wondering if it is a real "thing".

There are always people who have shallow, simplistic attitudes towards everything, and people who have shallow, simplistic "white lighter" perspectives and people who have shallow, simplistic "dark arts" perspectives both exist.  They're fairly minority in the circles I'm familiar with, and entirely ignorable.
as the water grinds the stone
we rise and fall
as our ashes turn to dust
we shine like stars    - Covenant, "Bullet"

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Re: White Lighters Versus The Dark Arts
« Reply #2 on: December 08, 2018, 05:52:43 pm »
That said, I was wondering if in the Pagan Community there is a significant sense of factionalism between so-called "White Lighters" versus those who practice the "Dark Arts", or have a more nihilistic worldview. I have read a bit about this, but I am wondering if it is a real "thing".

There are Pagans who see the world as either "light" or "dark", but as Darkhawk says, they are a small (although often annoying) minority who can be ignored -- unless one has to deal with one or more of them in day to day life. The world cannot really be easily divided in to "light" and "dark" and most Pagans recognize this. The world ranges from light to dim to dark and all the variations in between.

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Darkhawk

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Re: White Lighters Versus The Dark Arts
« Reply #3 on: December 08, 2018, 08:59:01 pm »
The world ranges from light to dim to dark and all the variations in between.

I mean.  I like colors, too.

Blue is nice.
as the water grinds the stone
we rise and fall
as our ashes turn to dust
we shine like stars    - Covenant, "Bullet"

Donal2018

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Re: White Lighters Versus The Dark Arts
« Reply #4 on: December 08, 2018, 09:44:23 pm »
I mean.  I like colors, too.

Blue is nice.

Yeah, blue is nice, but I am really more wondering about underlying attitudes. I have seen some people who are very into ceremonial magic that are really in it for pure power. Then I have seen others who think everything is just sweetness and light. One of the things that drew me to paganism is a more natural attitude towards morality, less severe black and white, the good versus evil you see a lot in Judeo-Christianity.

I am not talking about colors, of course, but underlying attitudes and philosophies. I have nothing against pursuing power for healthy purposes, but I have come across some that are into magick for power at any expense. This seems a little unbalanced to me.

The answer is not a saccharine niceness, but rather an understanding of other people's needs and perspectives as well as your own. Measured compassion is not a weakness, and might be an appropriate response to philosophies or views that have little use for it (compassion, that is). One can be strong and powerful without resorting to a philosophy of selfishness and pure instrumentalism.

Just my two cents.

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Re: White Lighters Versus The Dark Arts
« Reply #5 on: December 10, 2018, 09:15:34 pm »
That said, I was wondering if in the Pagan Community there is a significant sense of factionalism between so-called "White Lighters" versus those who practice the "Dark Arts", or have a more nihilistic worldview. I have read a bit about this, but I am wondering if it is a real "thing".

To clarify; this "it" refers to a factional separation between those who aim to do good and those who aim to help themselves only through their ritual practice right?

If I interpreted correctly; in my experience usually anyone who (to paraphrase DarkHawk) has such a simplistic light or dark view will write off people in the opposing group as "fluffy bunnies". Thus feeling justified because they applied a "They Don't Know Anything" label to their opponent, they simply disregard anything that doesn't fall firmly within their specific simplified world view.

Which means there is often little in the way of in-fighting between "White Light" / "Dark Arts" practitioners, or anyone else for that matter, under the Pagan Umbrella. This is a peaceful place that way, we tend towards leaving eachother alone if we cannot reconcile our differences. :)

I am not talking about colors, of course, but underlying attitudes and philosophies. I have nothing against pursuing power for healthy purposes, but I have come across some that are into magick for power at any expense. This seems a little unbalanced to me.

Everyone pursues ritual/magic/energy direction for their own personal purpose. Keep in mind that you are reading the other person's intentions secondhand, only they know what they are pursuing and thus only they can know how balanced their approach is.

What if these people are hoarding power to aid them through an undisclosed serious medical condition? What if they are pursuing that power at any cost to gain health for a sick child? Does the hoarding of power become less unbalanced if that is the case?

What I am getting at here is; Balance is often relevant to the individual eye, it is not often universally constant.

They're fairly minority in the circles I'm familiar with, and entirely ignorable.

Exactly this. I've only ever met one "White Lighter" whom, after many failed attempts at drafting me into her coven, got down on her knees and begged me not to "give in to the evils of dark magick" and insisted I join her coven to be properly monitored by an authority that would help me to moderate my practice.

It was an offensive situation to say the least, but easily dealt with (with politeness and diplomacy even!) and she herself has been easy to avoid in the time since that incident.

Donal2018

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Re: White Lighters Versus The Dark Arts
« Reply #6 on: December 10, 2018, 11:18:04 pm »
To clarify; this "it" refers to a factional separation between those who aim to do good and those who aim to help themselves only through their ritual practice right?

If I interpreted correctly; in my experience usually anyone who (to paraphrase DarkHawk) has such a simplistic light or dark view will write off people in the opposing group as "fluffy bunnies". Thus feeling justified because they applied a "They Don't Know Anything" label to their opponent, they simply disregard anything that doesn't fall firmly within their specific simplified world view.

Which means there is often little in the way of in-fighting between "White Light" / "Dark Arts" practitioners, or anyone else for that matter, under the Pagan Umbrella. This is a peaceful place that way, we tend towards leaving eachother alone if we cannot reconcile our differences. :)...

What I am getting at here is; Balance is often relevant to the individual eye, it is not often universally constant.

Exactly this. I've only ever met one "White Lighter" whom, after many failed attempts at drafting me into her coven, got down on her knees and begged me not to "give in to the evils of dark magick" and insisted I join her coven to be properly monitored by an authority that would help me to moderate my practice.

It was an offensive situation to say the least, but easily dealt with (with politeness and diplomacy even!) and she herself has been easy to avoid in the time since that incident.

I don't know if I would write off either type as being simplistic. Many are, I imagine, but some are not. I knew a guy in College through a Science Fiction Club and he was a LaVeyan Satanist. He had a pretty serious position. Some of these types of people seem to be well-studied, some not. Some have a serious underlying philosophy, which was part of what I was driving at. Are such philosophies around much, or not? I was just wondering if there was much of a presence of left-hand path types in current pagan communities, or not. Most of this is just stuff I have read about, barring the LaVeyan guy I knew in College.

Others I have encountered are people who are "white lighters", for lack of a better term. I had come across some people like that more in New Age circles. None of this is current for me, the connection to the LaVeyan or the experiences with "white lighters". It happened some time ago. I met the "white lighters" through a New Age Book Store that I used to go to. They were into angelology, channeling, ascended masters, and such stuff. I am not certain you would classify either of them as pagan, the Satanist or the New Agers. They certainly might be of what some call "alternative spirituality".

I was just wondering if these sort of things were issues in the pagan community since I have seen them in other social situations. I appreciate anecdotal evidence, but was sort of thinking macro sociologically or statistically. In other words, are there significant numbers that hew to extreme moral views in either direction? From how people have responded here, it sounds like people like that are rare and avoidable, which I would probably count as a good thing. Most pagan types seem to favor a more naturalistic morality than one of that believes in extreme "good versus evil" that you see in Judeo-Christianity. It is part of what I find appealing about paganism.

Donal2018

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Re: White Lighters Versus The Dark Arts
« Reply #7 on: December 10, 2018, 11:28:06 pm »
To clarify; this "it" refers to a factional separation between those who aim to do good and those who aim to help themselves only through their ritual practice right?

I am sorry that I did not address this question directly in my last post. The short answer is yes. A more detailed answer is that I am also talking about people who are not just aiming to help themselves (which I have no problem with), but might actively be interested in harming others. Hopefully such people are rare or uncommon.

And I was not just talking about practices, but also underlying philosophies. I am interested in how people like this rationalize their positions (if they do rationalize or explain them) and how prevalent this might be in various pagan communities or sub-cultures (not necessarily this message board community, but rather the larger and more diverse pagan community "out there").

Fortunately, the answer seems to be that there are not many people like this around.

RandallS

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Re: White Lighters Versus The Dark Arts
« Reply #8 on: December 11, 2018, 10:56:26 am »
I don't know if I would write off either type as being simplistic. Many are, I imagine, but some are not. I knew a guy in College through a Science Fiction Club and he was a LaVeyan Satanist. He had a pretty serious position.

LaVeyan Satanism has nothing to do with "Dark Arts". Wikipedia actually does a good job of explaining what it is about in a short paragraph:

Quote
The religion's doctrines are codified in LaVey's book, The Satanic Bible. The religion is materialist, rejecting the existence of supernatural beings, body-soul dualism, and life after death. Practitioners do not believe that Satan literally exists and do not worship him. Instead, Satan is viewed as a positive archetype representing pride, carnality, and enlightenment. He is also embraced as a symbol of defiance against Abrahamic religions which LaVeyans criticize for suppressing humanity's natural instincts and encouraging irrationality. The religion propagates a naturalistic worldview, seeing mankind as animals existing in an amoral universe. It promotes a philosophy based on individualism and egoism, coupled with Social Darwinism and anti-egalitarianism.
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RitaCeleste

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Re: White Lighters Versus The Dark Arts
« Reply #9 on: December 11, 2018, 11:12:53 am »
I am sorry that I did not address this question directly in my last post. The short answer is yes. A more detailed answer is that I am also talking about people who are not just aiming to help themselves (which I have no problem with), but might actively be interested in harming others. Hopefully such people are rare or uncommon.

And I was not just talking about practices, but also underlying philosophies. I am interested in how people like this rationalize their positions (if they do rationalize or explain them) and how prevalent this might be in various pagan communities or sub-cultures (not necessarily this message board community, but rather the larger and more diverse pagan community "out there").

Fortunately, the answer seems to be that there are not many people like this around.

Well, I am solitary.  Many years ago you would run across some very negative type people if you attended open groups and such.  I did not have a problem with Christianity and many pagan and Wiccan groups did not accept me because of it.  Most were ethical.  One decided to date a man I thought was pretty dark.

It was more common then to see "darker" men trying to get young women to skyclad services.  They were not really evil per say, just exploitive.  I am still wary of male Pagans, as are my sisters.  We live in Southeastern US, in the Bible belt.  But we were freer sexually than some other parts of the country.  My husband is a Yankee, he says up north you can't get them out of their sweaters and down here you can't keep them in their bikinis.

I believe in a God and a Goddess.  I also believe we could be living in the greatest RPG ever made.  My husband is Agnostic. But yes some people believe that while you have to a good person to get gifts and powers from the Christian God, the pagan deities will just load you up with power you can do whatever with.

Maybe I am a whitelighter.  I believe your mileage may vary depending on where you try to throw said power and with what intent.

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Re: White Lighters Versus The Dark Arts
« Reply #10 on: December 11, 2018, 11:48:48 am »

I believe in a God and a Goddess.  I also believe we could be living in the greatest RPG ever made.  My husband is Agnostic. But yes some people believe that while you have to a good person to get gifts and powers from the Christian God, the pagan deities will just load you up with power you can do whatever with.

Maybe I am a whitelighter.  I believe your mileage may vary depending on where you try to throw said power and with what intent.

I do want to add that my mother and father were grievously wronged by many people.  My old-fashioned Christian Mother picked up her Bible, flipped it open and said a prayer for vengeance.  The Christian God is fully prepared to visit the sins of the father upon their children.  I think I will never say that prayer.  The Christian God is not all sunshine and flowers either.  There is always room for regrets.

Donal2018

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Re: White Lighters Versus The Dark Arts
« Reply #11 on: December 11, 2018, 02:32:37 pm »
LaVeyan Satanism has nothing to do with "Dark Arts". Wikipedia actually does a good job of explaining what it is about in a short paragraph:

OK, fair enough. I was going by what this guy said to me. He did ceremonial style magic, tried to summon demons, read the Satanic Bible, believed in the supernatural, and wanted to exploit people, he admitted. Maybe he was not a LaVeyan, but he said he was. 

Donal2018

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Re: White Lighters Versus The Dark Arts
« Reply #12 on: December 11, 2018, 02:42:03 pm »
I do want to add that my mother and father were grievously wronged by many people.  My old-fashioned Christian Mother picked up her Bible, flipped it open and said a prayer for vengeance.  The Christian God is fully prepared to visit the sins of the father upon their children.  I think I will never say that prayer.  The Christian God is not all sunshine and flowers either.  There is always room for regrets.

Yes, you are right, of course, the Old Testament God is a vengeful God. I prefer the compassion of Jesus, but that is just me. I am a Universalist though. I try to respect most human religions even I do not subscribe to their views and beliefs. I am not a big fan of authoritarian deities and religions. I think pagan style beliefs are often (not always) more compatible with democracy and freedom of thought. Democracy and freedom mean a lot to me, and I am interested in religious ideas that are compatible with that. Anyway, you are right, the Christian God is not all sunshine and flowers either, but probably seems more compassionate and forgiving than the Father God of the Old Testament.

Donal2018

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Re: White Lighters Versus The Dark Arts
« Reply #13 on: December 11, 2018, 03:12:21 pm »
LaVeyan Satanism has nothing to do with "Dark Arts". Wikipedia actually does a good job of explaining what it is about in a short paragraph:

So I did a little reading. It sounds like this guy I knew was more of a Theistic Satanist versus a LaVeyan one. I thought he called himself a LaVeyan, but maybe he just meant that he read LaVey's works. Would you not call Theistic Satanists practitioners of the Dark Arts? Is there even such a term, really?

My view of it is that there are some people who engage in magical practices explicitly designed to harm others. This guy I knew was pretty explicit that he did, was interested in demonology, etc. I guess it is a bit of a tempest in a teapot, since there do not seem to be too many people who are into this sort of stuff anyway.

I just remembered this guy from College and wondered if there were any significant number of people still around who practice this stuff. I mean, I don't even know that anyone calling themselves a Theistic Satanist would be classified as a pagan anyway, so I guess the point of this discussion might be moot anyway.

Donal2018

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Re: White Lighters Versus The Dark Arts
« Reply #14 on: December 11, 2018, 04:08:27 pm »
I am pretty much a Solitary Practitioner who has only had casual interactions with Pagan Groups and other similar social interactions. So my social experience with Paganism is limited. That said, I was wondering if in the Pagan Community there is a significant sense of factionalism between so-called "White Lighters" versus those who practice the "Dark Arts", or have a more nihilistic worldview. I have read a bit about this, but I am wondering if it is a real "thing".

I am not just talking about a distinction between so-called "Fluffy Bunny" types and those who are more "serious" about their practices (although I am open to discussion on that topic as well). What I am really driving at is a distinction between different philosophies or outlooks, ranging from humanistic, compassionate views, to more purely selfish, "will to power" types of worldviews. I am just curious to know more about this. Thanks in advance for any responses.

I should also note that I do not subscribe to either of these perspectives. Rather, I posted about this topic as a sort of devil's advocate and a desire to provoke interesting conversation.

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