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Author Topic: What do pagan religions - or you - think about Vengeance?  (Read 4293 times)

Zaphaux

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What do pagan religions - or you - think about Vengeance?
« on: November 09, 2012, 06:39:12 pm »
I know that doing the bad for other person is something that most pagan religions despise, or merely says it is dangerous for the pratictioner because all of the karma stuff. But what if someone did something for you, and it's questionless that it was bad and intended, wouldn't Karma 'allows' you to retribute? Like a kind of actual balancing between bad and good, because I believe that if someone did the bad for other person it's perfectly fine for the other person to do something bad back at the first one.

 Do you think that if one did the bad and is not actually regretful about what he did, he deserves to be punished? I'm an 'eye for eye, tooth for tooth' kind of person, but I'm afraid of the magickal consequences it could happen to me, so I prefer to keep myself informed, or at least hear other people oppinion about this subject: vengeance. When it comes to justice, is it considerable doing the bad back?

Maps

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Re: What do pagan religions - or you - think about Vengeance?
« Reply #1 on: November 09, 2012, 06:51:08 pm »
Quote from: Zaphaux;80252
I know that doing the bad for other person is something that most pagan religions despise, or merely says it is dangerous for the pratictioner because all of the karma stuff. But what if someone did something for you, and it's questionless that it was bad and intended, wouldn't Karma 'allows' you to retribute? Like a kind of actual balancing between bad and good, because I believe that if someone did the bad for other person it's perfectly fine for the other person to do something bad back at the first one.

 Do you think that if one did the bad and is not actually regretful about what he did, he deserves to be punished? I'm an 'eye for eye, tooth for tooth' kind of person, but I'm afraid of the magickal consequences it could happen to me, so I prefer to keep myself informed, or at least hear other people oppinion about this subject: vengeance. When it comes to justice, is it considerable doing the bad back?

 
Under most circumstances I think it's a petty waste of energy.

BunnyMaz

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Re: What do pagan religions - or you - think about Vengeance?
« Reply #2 on: November 09, 2012, 06:59:41 pm »
Quote from: Zaphaux;80252
I know that doing the bad for other person is something that most pagan religions despise, or merely says it is dangerous for the pratictioner because all of the karma stuff. But what if someone did something for you, and it's questionless that it was bad and intended, wouldn't Karma 'allows' you to retribute? Like a kind of actual balancing between bad and good, because I believe that if someone did the bad for other person it's perfectly fine for the other person to do something bad back at the first one.

 Do you think that if one did the bad and is not actually regretful about what he did, he deserves to be punished? I'm an 'eye for eye, tooth for tooth' kind of person, but I'm afraid of the magickal consequences it could happen to me, so I prefer to keep myself informed, or at least hear other people oppinion about this subject: vengeance. When it comes to justice, is it considerable doing the bad back?

 
I can't speak for the religious side of it, but I see no point in vengeance.  I understand the temptation to engage in it when someone wrongs you, but I just don't see how anything good comes of it.  

I've certainly felt that righteous anger when I've been hurt or wronged, but acting on such feelings won't help.  Wouldn't change the bad things that had happened, or make the person who hurt me truly regret what they'd done or realise the wrong of it, at best it might make them regret getting caught.

Laveth

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Re: What do pagan religions - or you - think about Vengeance?
« Reply #3 on: November 09, 2012, 07:11:29 pm »
Quote from: Maps;80255
Under most circumstances I think it's a petty waste of energy.

 
I'm in Maps' boat. I can't know the reasoning behind their actions, I can't tell if there was a misunderstanding or if they're having a horrible time. Perpetuating the negativity only allows it to grow, to intensify, and to become something all-absorbing and counter-productive to everything else going on in your life. Not worth the effort, time, money, whatever.

Mend the damage, cut the ties, and move on.

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Re: What do pagan religions - or you - think about Vengeance?
« Reply #4 on: November 09, 2012, 07:11:45 pm »
Quote from: Zaphaux;80252
But what if someone did something for you, and it's questionless that it was bad and intended, wouldn't Karma 'allows' you to retribute?


First of all: that is not karma.  I won't say it has absolutely nothing to do with the actual concept of karma, but it's pretty close.  Karma is not a scorekeeper, and it does not permit or deny anything.

Karma is consequences.

Quote
I prefer to keep myself informed, or at least hear other people oppinion about this subject: vengeance. When it comes to justice, is it considerable doing the bad back?

 
Do you want to bear the consequences for doing something shitty?  And for being the sort of person who has no qualms about being that kind of asshole?
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we shine like stars    - Covenant, "Bullet"

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Re: What do pagan religions - or you - think about Vengeance?
« Reply #5 on: November 09, 2012, 07:17:00 pm »
Quote from: Zaphaux;80252
so I prefer to keep myself informed, or at least hear other people oppinion about this subject: vengeance. When it comes to justice, is it considerable doing the bad back?

 
Ooh, Brazil! I went to Rio in 2000. :D:

My philosophy, which is a combination of Wicca and Druidry, is that if you want to do something that might cause harm, as long as you fully accept the consequences, go ahead and do it.

Now, having said that, I think it's better to concentrate on using magic for self-defense and self-improvement rather than in anger or to get "justice". Especially if you wouldn't think of doing something non-magical to get justice from this person, such as punching them in the nose or going to the police or whatever.

Why? Because in the end, you'll have kept yourself safe and improved your situation rather than just getting the satisfaction of getting back at someone. That's not going to be as beneficial.

But there are many magical systems out there that have no problem with doing retribution magic to get back at someone who wronged you. The various types of Voodoo come to mind.

So really, it comes down to what YOU want. If you're comfortable working magic to get back at someone no matter what consequences it might bring down, then go on ahead. But if that bothers you, then you need to rethink how you're going to fix the problem.

Karen

Zaphaux

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Re: What do pagan religions - or you - think about Vengeance?
« Reply #6 on: November 09, 2012, 07:36:11 pm »
Quote from: BunnyMaz;80256
I can't speak for the religious side of it, but I see no point in vengeance.  I understand the temptation to engage in it when someone wrongs you, but I just don't see how anything good comes of it.  

I've certainly felt that righteous anger when I've been hurt or wronged, but acting on such feelings won't help.  Wouldn't change the bad things that had happened, or make the person who hurt me truly regret what they'd done or realise the wrong of it, at best it might make them regret getting caught.
I have a natural need of revenge, I just can't sleep at night knowing that someone did something to me and I just ignored that and did nothing back. I don't see it as actually vengeance, but as a kind of justice.

Quote from: Maps;80255
Under most circumstances I think it's a petty waste of energy.
As I said up there, I see it as justice, and justice for me makes me feel better, even when I'm avenging someone else. I don't really want to make anything by now, no one has made anything really wrong to me lately, it's just a question that comes eventually to my mind and I just posted it today. It's for future possibilities only, I plan doing nothing like this yet.

Quote from: Laveth;80259
I'm in Maps' boat. I can't know the reasoning behind their actions, I can't tell if there was a misunderstanding or if they're having a horrible time. Perpetuating the negativity only allows it to grow, to intensify, and to become something all-absorbing and counter-productive to everything else going on in your life. Not worth the effort, time, money, whatever.

Mend the damage, cut the ties, and move on.
That's something I knew I was going to hear of someone: I don't know the person's reasons for doing what I think is bad.
 I'm not willing to do anything, it is just a informational thread. As I'm talking about possibilities, let's figure a situation where the person knows he did something bad, is not regretful and there can't be any 'reasonable reason' that he could have for doing what he did. My sense of justice would not let me rest until this person get what he deserves.
 
Quote from: Darkhawk;80260
First of all: that is not karma.  I won't say it has absolutely nothing to do with the actual concept of karma, but it's pretty close.  Karma is not a scorekeeper, and it does not permit or deny anything.
I think you misunderstood me. I don't see karma as a 'scorekeeper' or a conscient mind that chooses who deserves good and who deserves bad. No. I said that about "karma letting me do something" in an alternative meaning, not the direct meaning of it. Let me put this way: my revenge could be the consequence of the mean actions of the other person.

Quote from: dragonfaerie;80263
Ooh, Brazil! I went to Rio in 2000. :D:

My philosophy, which is a combination of Wicca and Druidry, is that if you want to do something that might cause harm, as long as you fully accept the consequences, go ahead and do it.

Now, having said that, I think it's better to concentrate on using magic for self-defense and self-improvement rather than in anger or to get "justice". Especially if you wouldn't think of doing something non-magical to get justice from this person, such as punching them in the nose or going to the police or whatever.

Why? Because in the end, you'll have kept yourself safe and improved your situation rather than just getting the satisfaction of getting back at someone. That's not going to be as beneficial.

But there are many magical systems out there that have no problem with doing retribution magic to get back at someone who wronged you. The various types of Voodoo come to mind.

So really, it comes down to what YOU want. If you're comfortable working magic to get back at someone no matter what consequences it might bring down, then go on ahead. But if that bothers you, then you need to rethink how you're going to fix the problem.

Karen
Best reply so far - not saying the other replies were bad, please don't get offended. Good to know you came here once :D did you enjoy coming here? Hope so haha

 I wanted to know what kind of consequences it could be. Cause depending of what the person in question did, then the little harm I would do to this person and what I get of bad after that can be nothing compared to what he did, and then I would be in peace haha but if it can be really disastrous consequences, then I prefer not doing anything and use my energies to protect myself from future harms...
 Never really considered about Voodoo, and I have never read enough about it neither. Now that you said, I'm thinking of it.

 One thing I am sure is that I know how to measure everything, even counterbacks. So I wouldn't mess with the entire life of someone - if I could - just because of a little thing pretty bad he did. It's not fair, you know.

 So, I've formulated a few questions while answering these posts:
 1. Does magickal energy ends, or is it something that you can 'create' and 'handle'?
 2. How dangerous is it to work with negative energy, which could be used on a vengeance spell?
 3. Could positive energy be used to make justice or revenge?
« Last Edit: November 09, 2012, 07:39:15 pm by Zaphaux »

Laveth

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Re: What do pagan religions - or you - think about Vengeance?
« Reply #7 on: November 09, 2012, 07:48:51 pm »
Quote from: Zaphaux;80267


 That's something I knew I was going to hear of someone: I don't know the person's reasons for doing what I think is bad.
 I'm not willing to do anything, it is just a informational thread. As I'm talking about possibilities, let's figure a situation where the person knows he did something bad, is not regretful and there can't be any 'reasonable reason' that he could have for doing what he did. My sense of justice would not let me rest until this person get what he deserves.

 

In my mind, it's not right to take matters into my own hands that the 'universe' is better equipped to handle.

I know where you're coming from. The simple answer is, I don't share your mentality. So this is my response. :p

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Re: What do pagan religions - or you - think about Vengeance?
« Reply #8 on: November 09, 2012, 07:50:15 pm »
Quote from: Zaphaux;80252
I know that doing the bad for other person is something that most pagan religions despise, or merely says it is dangerous for the pratictioner because all of the karma stuff. But what if someone did something for you, and it's questionless that it was bad and intended, wouldn't Karma 'allows' you to retribute? Like a kind of actual balancing between bad and good, because I believe that if someone did the bad for other person it's perfectly fine for the other person to do something bad back at the first one.

 Do you think that if one did the bad and is not actually regretful about what he did, he deserves to be punished? I'm an 'eye for eye, tooth for tooth' kind of person, but I'm afraid of the magickal consequences it could happen to me, so I prefer to keep myself informed, or at least hear other people oppinion about this subject: vengeance. When it comes to justice, is it considerable doing the bad back?

 
I'm not particularly for or against vengeance. I can see why someone would and wouldn't partake of it.

The only time in my life where I've ever wanted to take vengeance is when my mom's ex-boyfriend took both of us for a ride after threatening our lives and property. He escaped virtually all consequences (ie: no jail time) and made off with over 10,000 USD worth of stuff.

But the universe has a way of taking vengeance for us sometimes. Or at least people sometimes get what's coming to them. Last I heard of evil ex-boyfriend, he was flat broke, had all the stuff he stole stolen or broken, and is now forced to live with his daughter and son, the daughter's husband and two kids, and the daughter's in-laws. And they are alllll flat broke, actually. The only people I feel bad for in this case is the kids. Not their fault their parental units made bad life choices. . .
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Zaphaux

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Re: What do pagan religions - or you - think about Vengeance?
« Reply #9 on: November 09, 2012, 08:12:05 pm »
Quote from: Laveth;80270
I know where you're coming from. The simple answer is, I don't share your mentality. So this is my response. :p
Sorry, it wasn't meant to be offensive, was it?
 
Quote from: Shine;80271
I'm not particularly for or against vengeance. I can see why someone would and wouldn't partake of it.

The only time in my life where I've ever wanted to take vengeance is when my mom's ex-boyfriend took both of us for a ride after threatening our lives and property. He escaped virtually all consequences (ie: no jail time) and made off with over 10,000 USD worth of stuff.

But the universe has a way of taking vengeance for us sometimes. Or at least people sometimes get what's coming to them. Last I heard of evil ex-boyfriend, he was flat broke, had all the stuff he stole stolen or broken, and is now forced to live with his daughter and son, the daughter's husband and two kids, and the daughter's in-laws. And they are alllll flat broke, actually. The only people I feel bad for in this case is the kids. Not their fault their parental units made bad life choices. . .

 Sometimes the universe in fact revenge some things for us, but it's difficult to say that there is a kind of intelligent force acting in the universe that gives people what they deserve, since there is a LOT of unfair things in the world, we all know that. So I say that the few cases where mean/evil people got what they deserve was just a big bad luck. Unless someone acted so these people would fail.
« Last Edit: November 09, 2012, 08:15:57 pm by Zaphaux »

Faemon

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Re: What do pagan religions - or you - think about Vengeance?
« Reply #10 on: November 09, 2012, 08:17:34 pm »
Quote from: Zaphaux;80252
I know that doing the bad for other person is something that most pagan religions despise, or merely says it is dangerous for the pratictioner because all of the karma stuff. But what if someone did something for you, and it's questionless that it was bad and intended, wouldn't Karma 'allows' you to retribute? Like a kind of actual balancing between bad and good, because I believe that if someone did the bad for other person it's perfectly fine for the other person to do something bad back at the first one.
When you say "balance", most people would speak from their end of the seesaw, not the center fulcrum. So, they can't judge Balance because it's always going to be "for me, for me" it's difficult to know how low the other person's end is, what's weighing them down, and so on. Justice is different from Vengeance. Justice has a wiser and wider perspective, and therefore can be mysterious if not absent.

All of them have their place. I really believe that some people can be satisfied with acting vengefully, and some people get a wake-up call from taking it. But, it's never going to be what you're going to expect. The one who did the bad, deserves to be empathic and remorseful, and nobody, not even you and your magick, can compel him to do that.

I have wreaked vengeance, mundanely not magically. You see where I said that some people feel victory from vengeance? I am not like that. And how people get a wake-up call from getting what they deserve? They were not like that.

It was the worst thing I ever did... and the best thing to ever happen to me. It forced changes to come about in my world that I badly needed but could not have incited or embraced had I not examined properly what I was leaving behind. The conflict I stirred up? Was that examination. I didn't know it back then, or mean it back then. But that's the way it is, and since then everything else in my life not directly related to what happened, has been going so so very well!

This won't happen to everyone every single time. Maybe you'd get counter-cursed with three Furies, or reincarnated as a cockroach. Maybe I still will. But I am sure that it is never that simple. I still feel unsatisfied with those specific people, I don't feel so much comfort that I was a puppet of fate, but... everything else is glowingly good. I don't know if that's fair.


It was around this time that the Norse claimed me. I thought it was because I had been the Loki in my own Lokasenna, doomed to eternal torture for acting to keep the balance, but will ultimately herald the end of the Aesir, the final word in the argument. Now I feel more like Odin: He had been so badly hurt by the loss of his son that he would do anything, anything to avenge it-- even if it wouldn't bring Baldr back, even if his actions cause so much grievous harm to innocent people like Rinda-- and this is after he'd already lost an eye for "wisdom". Now the Twilight of the Gods is coming to him.

Vengeance has its consequences, yet it is itself a consequence. We might never know where we are at. Are you "at cause", or "at effect"? It is not simple.
« Last Edit: November 09, 2012, 08:23:45 pm by Faemon »
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Darkhawk

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Re: What do pagan religions - or you - think about Vengeance?
« Reply #11 on: November 09, 2012, 08:18:10 pm »
Quote from: Laveth;80270
In my mind, it's not right to take matters into my own hands that the 'universe' is better equipped to handle.

 
This one I don't really get; I am a part of the universe, and thus my actions are necessarily part of what the universe is causing/doing/handling, no matter what they are.
as the water grinds the stone
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Re: What do pagan religions - or you - think about Vengeance?
« Reply #12 on: November 09, 2012, 08:28:36 pm »
Quote from: Darkhawk;80274
This one I don't really get; I am a part of the universe, and thus my actions are necessarily part of what the universe is causing/doing/handling, no matter what they are.

 
If I had the words, I could explain it better. Let's see...

A few years back I had a rather nasty experience that basically left me coping with a total nervous breakdown and the lack of will to survive, because of the deception and manipulation of someone else. I had all the reason in the world to retaliate and try to bring something out of that situation. And I didn't. In a sense, I was freed because I didn't.

I got the distinct impression that if I were to take those matters into my own hands, I would never move on from it and that higher understanding and a wiser power was much better equipped to mete out a just arrangement than I was. After all, I don't have nearly the imagination or ability that whatever has.

Maybe that made it clearer? Unfortunately, since that time, my literary skills have basically gone down the drain as well. >.<

Zaphaux

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Re: What do pagan religions - or you - think about Vengeance?
« Reply #13 on: November 09, 2012, 08:39:56 pm »
Quote from: triple_entendre;80273
When you say "balance", most people would speak from their end of the seesaw, not the center fulcrum. So, they can't judge Balance because it's always going to be "for me, for me" it's difficult to know how low the other person's end is, what's weighing them down, and so on. Justice is different from Vengeance. Justice has a wiser and wider perspective, and therefore can be mysterious if not absent.

All of them have their place. I really believe that some people can be satisfied with acting vengefully, and some people get a wake-up call from taking it. But, it's never going to be what you're going to expect. The one who did the bad, deserves to be empathic and remorseful, and nobody, not even you and your magick, can compel him to do that.

I have wreaked vengeance, mundanely not magically. You see where I said that some people feel victory from vengeance? I am not like that. And how people get a wake-up call from getting what they deserve? They were not like that.

It was the worst thing I ever did... and the best thing to ever happen to me. It forced changes to come about in my world that I badly needed but could not have incited or embraced had I not examined properly what I was leaving behind. The conflict I stirred up? Was that examination. I didn't know it back then, or mean it back then. But that's the way it is, and since then everything else in my life not directly related to what happened, has been going so so very well!

This won't happen to everyone every single time. Maybe you'd get counter-cursed with three Furies, or reincarnated as a cockroach. Maybe I still will. But I am sure that it is never that simple. I still feel unsatisfied with those specific people, I don't feel so much comfort that I was a puppet of fate, but... everything else is glowingly good. I don't know if that's fair.


It was around this time that the Norse claimed me. I thought it was because I had been the Loki in my own Lokasenna, doomed to eternal torture for acting to keep the balance, but will ultimately herald the end of the Aesir, the final word in the argument. Now I feel more like Odin: He had been so badly hurt by the loss of his son that he would do anything, anything to avenge it-- even if it wouldn't bring Baldr back, even if his actions cause so much grievous harm to innocent people like Rinda-- and this is after he'd already lost an eye for "wisdom". Now the Twilight of the Gods is coming to him.

Vengeance has its consequences, yet it is itself a consequence. We might never know where we are at. Are you "at cause", or "at effect"? It is not simple.

 The last part is exactly what I was trying to say, vengeance is, or can be, consequence of the actions of the first person. If is it so, can't you say that it CAN be justice? As you said, it's not simple.

 But if you were to revenge something, and you were pretty sure you are the right one in the history, you would have no regret for doing the bad for this person, then what would be your fear? What would you fear that could happen to you?
 
Quote from: Darkhawk;80274
This one I don't really get; I am a part of the universe, and thus my actions are necessarily part of what the universe is causing/doing/handling, no matter what they are.

  That's basicaly part of my own beliefs. If I am part of the universe, then I have in my soul even the causal part of it like the line that chooses the thrill of reality, in other words: I can be a source for the universe to bring to someone what this person deserves, justice.
 Even though as triple_entendre said, it's difficult to know when the bad you will to do is justice or a mere vengeance. The thing is: sometimes vengeance is justice, or involves it. Sometimes.

 It isn't an impossible case that someone can do something actually bad, decidedly so and questionless... so in some not-so-extreme situations you can actually know for sure that it would be justice, not only vengeance.

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Re: What do pagan religions - or you - think about Vengeance?
« Reply #14 on: November 09, 2012, 09:22:34 pm »
Quote from: Zaphaux;80252

When it comes to justice, is it considerable doing the bad back?

 
I live in a world of forgiveness (most of the time.)

What is justice? If everyone did the eye for an eye, how many would be left with two eyes? Or even one?  
The rule of law was supposed to settle this.

Example:  If three people get together and take one persons eye, does he get to take one from each, giving him three not one?  If he only takes one from which one?

Along comes the children who are upset over the lost of the eye and are not happy with the result.  What happens now?  Along comes their children guess what happens.

Look at the feuds and vendetta's that have gone on for generations.
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Bob, Catja, Emma-Eldritch, Fausta, Jubes, Kelly, Phouka, Sperran, Star, Steve, Tana

Cauldron Assistants
[Non-Staff Positions]

Site Assistants
[Non-Staff Positions]
Webmaster:
Randall