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Author Topic: Wanting help to understand celtic pagan tradition.  (Read 3534 times)

ethelwulf

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Re: Wanting help to understand celtic pagan tradition.
« Reply #30 on: March 19, 2014, 05:11:41 pm »
Quote from: Allaya;143002
I'm not sure what you're after here. There is no bouncer checking IDs at the door between worlds and you can't ask for a deity's badge number when the stop you on the street.

 
No there are no bouncers. My question was directed at what made that person think Macha?  Is it and intuition? Is there other aspects of the experience to choose that particular Deity? I found there experience interesting and was curious to know more.

ethelwulf

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Re: Wanting help to understand celtic pagan tradition.
« Reply #31 on: March 19, 2014, 05:20:32 pm »
Quote from: Darkhawk;143006
Subjective experience will always remain subjective.

As long as someone's looking for some kind of objective methology they're going to fail.  Hanging one's value of success on a task that has no means to achieve anything other than failure is foolhardy.  Objective methodology for determining the identities of spiritual entities is impossible, and thus I choose to believe that it does not matter, because to believe otherwise is a course leading only to suffering and failure.

Subjective affirmation is just plain good enough.

 
In this case I was no looking for objective affirmation but rather decision making. Why Macha? What about the experience led to the decision. I it is just a feeling it was Macha that is fine. If it was a divine revelation ok. If it was a person just wanted to be that is also fine. I was interested in the process. Why would you hang your success on a task that has no  means to achieve anything other than failure is foolhardy. That sentence is obvious and does not make sense in this case so I do not know why you wrote it.

ethelwulf

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Re: Wanting help to understand celtic pagan tradition.
« Reply #32 on: March 19, 2014, 05:22:24 pm »
Quote from: Darkhawk;142954
You never know, which is fine, because it doesn't actually matter.

.

 
Why attach a name if it does not matter?

Jenett

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Re: Wanting help to understand celtic pagan tradition.
« Reply #33 on: March 19, 2014, 06:09:42 pm »
Quote from: ethelwulf;143011
Why attach a name if it does not matter?

 
Because names are useful?

I work with a deity (actually, two of them) for whom I do not have names. (Or rather, I have very general use-names that do not match up to *anything* researchable at all.)

It is a pain in the neck. It is a pain in the neck when I'm trying to write ritual for them. It is a pain in the neck when I want to talk to other people about them. It is a pain in the neck when I want to get data from anyone who is not me.

I manage, obviously, and have for a decade. But if I had a name I was reasonably sure was okay? I'd be using that name.

Here's the other parallel: I exist here, in this space, using the name Jenett. (Which is not my legal name). I say things about my background that are not verifiable without that bit of data (the fact I am in fact employed as an academic librarian, the fact I have an MLIS degree, the fact my father was a specialist in ancient Greek theatre, among others.) But people can still evaluate me as *Jenett* without being sure of those things.

(Some people on this forum know my legal name, but proviing to a random bystander that my father is my father is a little trickier: he's been dead for 22 years and change, and most of the public bios were written before I was born.)

Point is: you start looking at the data you have. Does the deity ask you to call them a given name? Does what you're getting from them match what other people who seem to work with the same deity mention? If not, why not? If so, why so? (And of course, it's not like there's only one name per being, or like names don't get re-used: I am not the only Jennifer on the planet, or even the only Jenett) But over time, you can determine consistency.

Also, whether you want to spend time with that deity (or entity). Which, really, is the more important part. The name can help with that, but it's not going to tell you whether you want time with that deity all by itself.
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ethelwulf

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Re: Wanting help to understand celtic pagan tradition.
« Reply #34 on: March 19, 2014, 06:21:30 pm »
Quote from: Jenett;143015
Because names are useful?

I work with a deity (actually, two of them) for whom I do not have names. (Or rather, I have very general use-names that do not match up to *anything* researchable at all.)

It is a pain in the neck. It is a pain in the neck when I'm trying to write ritual for them. It is a pain in the neck when I want to talk to other people about them. It is a pain in the neck when I want to get data from anyone who is not me.

I manage, obviously, and have for a decade. But if I had a name I was reasonably sure was okay? I'd be using that name.

Here's the other parallel: I exist here, in this space, using the name Jenett. (Which is not my legal name). I say things about my background that are not verifiable without that bit of data (the fact I am in fact employed as an academic librarian, the fact I have an MLIS degree, the fact my father was a specialist in ancient Greek theatre, among others.) But people can still evaluate me as *Jenett* without being sure of those things.

(Some people on this forum know my legal name, but proviing to a random bystander that my father is my father is a little trickier: he's been dead for 22 years and change, and most of the public bios were written before I was born.)

Point is: you start looking at the data you have. Does the deity ask you to call them a given name? Does what you're getting from them match what other people who seem to work with the same deity mention? If not, why not? If so, why so? (And of course, it's not like there's only one name per being, or like names don't get re-used: I am not the only Jennifer on the planet, or even the only Jenett) But over time, you can determine consistency.

Also, whether you want to spend time with that deity (or entity). Which, really, is the more important part. The name can help with that, but it's not going to tell you whether you want time with that deity all by itself.

 
You have missed my point. If I or anyone wants to go to the spririt world and communicate that is fine. My question was how do you know the spirit is the spirit associated with the Celtic name from the past?

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Re: Wanting help to understand celtic pagan tradition.
« Reply #35 on: March 19, 2014, 06:27:46 pm »
Quote from: ethelwulf;143020
My question was how do you know the spirit is the spirit associated with the Celtic name from the past?


The answer is still "You don't.  You can get to 'acting as if this spirit is that entity produces results consistent within themselves and with the surviving lore', but this is not knowledge."
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Jenett

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Re: Wanting help to understand celtic pagan tradition.
« Reply #36 on: March 19, 2014, 06:33:53 pm »
Quote from: ethelwulf;143020
You have missed my point. If I or anyone wants to go to the spririt world and communicate that is fine. My question was how do you know the spirit is the spirit associated with the Celtic name from the past?

 
You also missed my point: that there's lots of possible data that *still* doesn't add up to surety, even if you're working with current-world levels of documentation, and y'know, legal paperwork and things.

Presuming you're going to have any level of certainty when we're going back to pre-written records is, well, even more problematic. As Darkhawk pointed out.
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ethelwulf

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Re: Wanting help to understand celtic pagan tradition.
« Reply #37 on: March 19, 2014, 08:03:58 pm »
Quote from: Jenett;143027
You also missed my point: that there's lots of possible data that *still* doesn't add up to surety, even if you're working with current-world levels of documentation, and y'know, legal paperwork and things.

Presuming you're going to have any level of certainty when we're going back to pre-written records is, well, even more problematic. As Darkhawk pointed out.

 
The issue was about the process of understanding not the absolute proof. You have to understand we have very little proof of a goddess like Macha. You  might not be aware but there is even less information on the goddesses Eostre and Hreda. In this case there was an amazing lucid vision which he reported as Macha. There is some degree of description of the goddesses but art or drawings of them. I was interested in how he knew it was Macha. The answer the he just knew without any explanation would me more than adequate but if there was something more that connected her that would be interesting. I would not expect objective evidence as Darkhawk mentioned. I am just interested in the process of connect with a Celtic goddess.

ethelwulf

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Re: Wanting help to understand celtic pagan tradition.
« Reply #38 on: March 19, 2014, 08:08:34 pm »
Quote from: Darkhawk;143025
The answer is still "You don't.  You can get to 'acting as if this spirit is that entity produces results consistent within themselves and with the surviving lore', but this is not knowledge."

 
So when people say they have connected with a specific Celtic goddess or god may think they have but they really do not know if they have?

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Re: Wanting help to understand celtic pagan tradition.
« Reply #39 on: March 19, 2014, 08:17:38 pm »
Quote from: ethelwulf;143041
So when people say they have connected with a specific Celtic goddess or god may think they have but they really do not know if they have?

 
Correct. The same goes for anyone evaluating any spiritual experience. This gets into really dicey territory with what is "real" and what counts as "real" and where does it really matter? This changes not only from religion to religion, but from person to person.

If someone says "I talked to Macha last night" I'll believe them (in that they had a spiritual experience and have evaluated it as such and do not need my input about what it could or couldn't mean). But if they say "I talked to Macha last night and She says anyone who worships Her needs to do XYZ or their worship doesn't count" -- in other words, if their interpretation of their religious experience tries to affect someone other than themselves -- then I'd start questioning.
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I shall embrace the light. I shall weather the storm.
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ethelwulf

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Re: Wanting help to understand celtic pagan tradition.
« Reply #40 on: March 19, 2014, 08:40:05 pm »
Quote from: Sage;143042
Correct. The same goes for anyone evaluating any spiritual experience. This gets into really dicey territory with what is "real" and what counts as "real" and where does it really matter? This changes not only from religion to religion, but from person to person.

If someone says "I talked to Macha last night" I'll believe them (in that they had a spiritual experience and have evaluated it as such and do not need my input about what it could or couldn't mean). But if they say "I talked to Macha last night and She says anyone who worships Her needs to do XYZ or their worship doesn't count" -- in other words, if their interpretation of their religious experience tries to affect someone other than themselves -- then I'd start questioning.

 
I like this explanation. This makes much more sense to me. Thank you.

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Re: Wanting help to understand celtic pagan tradition.
« Reply #41 on: March 19, 2014, 08:47:53 pm »
Quote from: ethelwulf;143040
In this case there was an amazing lucid vision which he reported as Macha. There is some degree of description of the goddesses but art or drawings of them. I was interested in how he knew it was Macha. The answer the he just knew without any explanation would me more than adequate but if there was something more that connected her that would be interesting. I would not expect objective evidence as Darkhawk mentioned. I am just interested in the process of connect with a Celtic goddess.

 
Just so you know... you're basically asking nosy questions about someone's personal relationships here. Phouka might choose to tell you more, or she might not - and that's her choice.

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Re: Wanting help to understand celtic pagan tradition.
« Reply #42 on: March 19, 2014, 08:49:06 pm »
Quote from: ethelwulf;143048
I like this explanation. This makes much more sense to me. Thank you.

 
Glad it was helpful! These are really nebulous concepts that are tricky to put into words.
Maker, though the darkness comes upon me,
I shall embrace the light. I shall weather the storm.
I shall endure.
What you have created, no one can tear asunder.

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ethelwulf

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Re: Wanting help to understand celtic pagan tradition.
« Reply #43 on: March 20, 2014, 04:34:45 am »
Quote from: SunflowerP;143050
Just so you know... you're basically asking nosy questions about someone's personal relationships here. Phouka might choose to tell you more, or she might not - and that's her choice.

Sunflower

 
Just so you know .. I am not trying to be nosy. I am interested in their experiences to better understand how someone connects to Celtic gods. If they do not want to answer I completely understand and of course it is his or her choice. I appreciated there honest expression. I have offended Phouka or you I apologize. It is through our shared experiences and knowledge that we can better understand what we believe in. The process by which we come to our conclusions can be valuable and hope that anyone can say I do not feel comfortable answering that question.

dragonfaerie

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Re: Wanting help to understand celtic pagan tradition.
« Reply #44 on: March 23, 2014, 06:10:49 pm »
Quote from: ethelwulf;143077
Just so you know .. I am not trying to be nosy. I am interested in their experiences to better understand how someone connects to Celtic gods.


The short answer is, well, that's why the call it faith.

The longer answer, which some folks have already explained quite well... how do we know that any of it is real? How do Christians know if they're connecting with Jesus? Because a priest tells them? How does he or she know?

In some ways, it's a mystery. It's like being in love. You know because you know. You know because there's similarities with how others experience those mysteries, but there's still uniqueness in the experience because it's your experience.

And in some ways, it doesn't matter if it's real or not. This God has chosen to interact with me as Brigid, and that's fine as long as it's a mutually beneficial arrangement. If suddenly my Brigid starts telling me to poison my boss and burn the house down, I'll be going to a doctor right quick.

I have to ask... all the questioning about how one knows for sure who they are connecting to... is that motivated out of fear or concern over the "wrong" entity coming through? Or concern that you're working with said deity/entity the "right" way?

Karen

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