General/Non-Specific: Syncretic Polytheism

[arete]

Even if a God or Goddess is real, that does not mean that the Deity in question does not have multiple forms, avatars, or incarnations. Vishnu has many avatars, Rama, Krishna chief amongst them. In Celtic Mythology you have Triple Gods and Goddesses. Multiple forms. I think the argument sticks, whether you believe that Gods are archetypes or sentient entities. Even if a God is "real", they can have multiple incarnations. Just my two cents.

In my opinion, you can't have a God from a pantheon to be the avatar from a different pantheon. Taranis is not the avatar of Jupiter.

[Donal2018]

In my opinion, you can't have a God from a pantheon to be the avatar from a different pantheon. Taranis is not the avatar of Jupiter.

I understand your point. I am not actually asserting that Taranis is an incarnation of Jupiter. I am just using that as an example of my question, which is "can one god be an incarnation of another"?

I believe that Caesar equated Celtic Gaulish Gods with Roman Gods, so I am not just pulling this question out of nowhere. But, I understand your position and I respect your views.

[Megatherium]

In my opinion, Taranis is Taranis, and Jupiter is Jupiter. No mix. Why? Because they are real Gods and not just an idea. Also, they belong to a certain pantheon each....

I think the less historical contact that cultures had with each other, the more difficult it is to draw parallels. That is not to say it is impossible for a God to be seen in very different ways in different cultural contexts, but rather that humans are unlikely to be able to perceive similarities between deities in different cultures.

And I think your point on pantheons is frequently, but not always true. Pantheons do change, they do incorporate new deities, and older deities may be forgotten. I think there are different pantheons, to be sure, but I don't think the boundaries between them are ultimately fixed and impermeable.

[Louisvillian]

I am curious to hear from more advanced or experienced practitioners on this topic...The topic is syncreticism or identifying one God or Goddess from one Tradition with a God or Goddess from a different tradition...

Hm. Not quite how I'd use the term, exactly. I mean conflation of deities does happen in syncretism sometimes. But I think of syncretism more in terms of practices than beliefs. For instance, I describe myself a Syncretic Roman recon, because my main practices are Roman, but I have non-insignificant sacra privata pertaining to Greek, Celtic, and Saxon gods, and I try to employ culturally-appropriate practices towards each.

My question to practicing Pagan Folks is this: can one God in one culture or pantheon be viewed as an incarnation of another God from another culture and other pantheon?

Yes. Whether or not that's accurate is subjective.
Myself, I take it on a case by case basis. I use some Roman terminology to contextualize how I think of it. The Romans believed that deities carried a specific spirit or energy, a numen, which could leave an imprint on places and things. They believed that several different gods could have the same numen, and therefore could be bound up in the same god-form. So, they referred to the thunder-wielding sky father as Jupiter, who might manifest itself as Jupiter Capitolinus, Jupiter Indiges (Aeneas deified), Jupiter-Taranis, Zeus, etc.
But at the same time there are gods that might have a similar numen but are radically distinct figures: Artemis and Diana, for instance.

[EmberHearth]

Yes. Whether or not that's accurate is subjective.
Myself, I take it on a case by case basis.

This, and also Magatherium's comment above it.

It's important to remember that humans have always traveled, and travelers have carried tales even farther.  So it is entirely possible for a deity from Japan to have been worshipped in medieval Europe... but the sociopolitical environment makes it unlikely, and exceptional rather than the rule.

My personal squishy-polytheist and syncretic path does link a number of Celtic and Germanic deities that hard polytheists consider separate.  I try to use multiple factors in this assessment, including:
1) linguistic relationships
2) cultural interaction between the peoples
3) myths & stories about the characters
4) sacred symbolism

Note, also, that the peoples occupied similar parts of Europe, and had shifting borders for a millennia or two, long enough for other interactions.

Some of the links I have made (Yngvi-Freyr with Angus-Mabon, for an example I've shared on another thread) I feel comfortable arguing and defending based on scholarship, and whose similarities have even been noted by accepted scholars like H.R. Ellis Davidson.

Some of the links I have made are mostly intuitive.

I draw a connection between three obscure goddesses: Sinthgunt (Germanic, sister to Sunna, heals in the Merseberg charm), Stirona (Gaulish goddess of healing springs), and the Brythonic Senuna (many statues found at a spring, no myths yet), that is not what I would consider academically credible.  I still need to study their posited linguistic origins, as currently even that is ... folk-etymology.  The surviving lore is thin, and may not ever be conclusive.
 Their very obscurity makes my conflation "mostly harmless" to the bigger Pagan world.

Then, there are in-betweens, where even scholars argue over whether they are one figure or two.

Frigga and Freya is one good example of that.  The Old High German root for both is like "Frije".  The Norse lore has separate figures, but continental Germanic peoples might only have one.

I tend to treat the two as different figures. But I have begun to consider Freya, Frigga and Fulla as possibly sisters, like the three Brighids.

Then, there's the controversial. One set in particular, I've found scholarship that satisfies *my* desire for linguistic, narrative, and symbolic comparisons.  I have my doubts that it will ever become an accepted, majority interpretation.   This one, I usually keep to myself.

[PerditaPickle]

The Romans believed that deities carried a specific spirit or energy, a numen, which could leave an imprint on places and things. They believed that several different gods could have the same numen, and therefore could be bound up in the same god-form. So, they referred to the thunder-wielding sky father as Jupiter, who might manifest itself as Jupiter Capitolinus, Jupiter Indiges (Aeneas deified), Jupiter-Taranis, Zeus, etc.
But at the same time there are gods that might have a similar numen but are radically distinct figures: Artemis and Diana, for instance.

I found this a really interesting bit of info.

My personal squishy-polytheist and syncretic path does link a number of Celtic and Germanic deities that hard polytheists consider separate.

I'm afraid I'm still trying to get my hard and soft polytheists sorted out in my head - is squishy-polytheist your way of indicating broadly soft polytheism, if you don't mind me asking/don't mind saying?

[EmberHearth]

I'm afraid I'm still trying to get my hard and soft polytheists sorted out in my head - is squishy-polytheist your way of indicating broadly soft polytheism, if you don't mind me asking/don't mind saying?

The short answer is yes.

The longer answer is, it's complicated.

I come out of Roman Catholic trinitarianism, with a strong mysticism bent.  I've been influenced by English translations of the Tao he Ching, and one in particular stood out to me from the beginning:

The Tao became one
One became two
Two became three
Three became all things.

I think there is a oneness behind all existence, "Close to us as breathing, distant as the farthest star."

But I don't quite agree with the Wiccan concept of "All Gods are one God, and all Goddesses are one Goddess."

I no longer believe that there is just one Great Goddess figure, that all Goddesses are just pieces of.

Certainly many of the myths and stories we have point to conflict between different figures.

I think as human beings, it is easier to relate to Gods & Goddesses like separate people.

Much like Catholics prefer to approach particular saints for particular problems, I prefer to work with Frigga Holle, and Brighid on learning to manage my domestic household.

While working with other goddesses for other purposes.

[Jenett]

But I don't quite agree with the Wiccan concept of "All Gods are one God, and all Goddesses are one Goddess."

It's worth noticing this is actually a Dion Fortune quote, and she was not Wiccan (and also it is incomplete: it continues "And there is one Initiator" - she was an esotericist, not a Pagan.)

It's been picked up in some strands of more eclectic Wicca. But that's often been done by people who don't realise that when traditional Wiccans are talking about "The Lord" and "The Lady", they're talking about the tiles of specific deities who have names, but whose names are oathbound.

(Much as I will often say "My doctor" or "My boss" in conversation with people who don't know those people's names, because the role is another way to refer to them, and much more useful if they don't know the name anyway.)

[Zlote Jablko]

This, and also Magatherium's comment above it.

It's important to remember that humans have always traveled, and travelers have carried tales even farther.  So it is entirely possible for a deity from Japan to have been worshipped in medieval Europe... but the sociopolitical environment makes it unlikely, and exceptional rather than the rule.

My personal squishy-polytheist and syncretic path does link a number of Celtic and Germanic deities that hard polytheists consider separate.  I try to use multiple factors in this assessment, including:
1) linguistic relationships
2) cultural interaction between the peoples
3) myths & stories about the characters
4) sacred symbolism

Note, also, that the peoples occupied similar parts of Europe, and had shifting borders for a millennia or two, long enough for other interactions.

That’s largely my view as well. Slavic mythology is not well attested, so a lot of reconstruction involves the interpretation of folklore and folk tales using comparative analysis. Fortunately some correspondences are pretty straightforward. For example, Perun is related to the Lithuanian Perkunas, and Velinas is related to Veles. Baba Yaga resembles the German Frau Holle/Perchta and Lithuanian Laume.

Some comparative mythology is pretty well substantiated. For example, we know that Indo-European cultures had some similar deities. The Vedic people of India worshipped twin Gods called the Ashwins, and in Lithuanian mythology there are twin Gods called the Asvienai. Both are associated with horses and a sun Goddess. Unsurprising, because Lithuanian sounds a lot like Sanskrit.
So it’s hard to say there is no relationship.

Some of the links I have made are mostly intuitive.

I draw a connection between three obscure goddesses: Sinthgunt (Germanic, sister to Sunna, heals in the Merseberg charm), Stirona (Gaulish goddess of healing springs), and the Brythonic Senuna (many statues found at a spring, no myths

An Indo European sun Goddess has been reconstructed by scholars. This may also include the British Sullis, who was associated with healing, as well as the Baltic Saule and Vedic Surya (Daughter of the more well known male Surya.)

[EmberHearth]

It's worth noticing this is actually a Dion Fortune quote, and she was not Wiccan (and also it is incomplete: it continues "And there is one Initiator" - she was an esotericist, not a Pagan.)

That's interesting. I thought she was in with Gardner, and he used a lot of her poetry.  The Long Rede, and the Charges.

It's been picked up in some strands of more eclectic Wicca. But that's often been done by people who don't realise that when traditional Wiccans are talking about "The Lord" and "The Lady", they're talking about the tiles of specific deities who have names, but whose names are oathbound.

Obviously my circles of practice have been eclectic Wiccan.

One of the elders in my previous community claimed to be 3rd degree Gardnerian and 2nd Degree Alexandrian.  I don't recall her ever mentioning this.  Of course, if the names are oathbound, that might have been a way to prevent the question...

[EmberHearth]

Some comparative mythology is pretty well substantiated. For example, we know that Indo-European cultures had some similar deities. The Vedic people of India worshipped twin Gods called the Ashwins, and in Lithuanian mythology there are twin Gods called the Asvienai. Both are associated with horses and a sun Goddess. Unsurprising, because Lithuanian sounds a lot like Sanskrit.
So it’s hard to say there is no relationship.

Yes, the Alcis twins are a little obscure, but present in Germanic traditions.  In the Irish, they survive as the twins of Macha, but It's mostly her story.

An Indo European sun Goddess has been reconstructed by scholars. This may also include the British Sullis, who was associated with healing, as well as the Baltic Saule and Vedic Surya (Daughter of the more well known male Surya.)

Yes, and I honor both Sunna/Sol and Mani. For some of my sky reconstructions, I've briefly looked at the Baltic and Slavic pantheons.

The Merseberg charm calls "Sinhtgunt" the sister of Sunna. Linguistically, that's thought to be a misspelling of Sinthgunt, I gather the other doesn't make sense in German. Some heathens, particularly around Raven Kaldera's Northern Tradition, think she's a star Goddess.

An Irish blessing mentions "Deep peace of the healing stars to you."

Đirona, a Gaulic goddess, is probably linguistically connected to Aster/Star.

The Brythonic Senuna was an archaeological find, no mythos yet,so it might be another Sulis Minerva / Brighid of the hot springs type,  this is the least-supported / most intuitive of my Star Goddess intuition.  I'm guessing from the sounds: Sin/Sen and gunt/un.

[Jenett]

That's interesting. I thought she was in with Gardner, and he used a lot of her poetry.  The Long Rede, and the Charges.

You're thinking of Doreen Valiente here, for the Charge (and much of the poetry that ended up in Gardnerian use). The origin of the Long Rede is a little more complicated, links over here, but the short form traces to Valiente, and the most common long version to Gwen Thomson.

One of the elders in my previous community claimed to be 3rd degree Gardnerian and 2nd Degree Alexandrian.  I don't recall her ever mentioning this.  Of course, if the names are oathbound, that might have been a way to prevent the question...

This is also a "When were these conversations?" question.

The articulation I made above has gotten somewhat more common in the past decade or so. Earlier materials and conversations tended to be a lot more obscured (and yes, "just not saying the thing that brings a particular question up" is a pretty common approach to oathbound material, and one I use myself.)

There's also the ongoing issues of what are sometimes referred to as Fraudnerians and Alexandnots - which is to say people who claim those traditions but who are not actually initiates in them. There are people out there who think they have legitimate claims, and for various reasons don't (i.e. they were trained and initiated by people who claimed those traditions, but who weren't legitimate members themselves.

Once you get a generation or two down the line, it's really hard to untangle. And of course, these people may be ethical competent witches, but they're not a great representation of the relevant traditions in that case because they don't have accurate information about the tradition in the first place.

I am neither of those traditions, but my information comes from a variety of conversations over the years, including on the Amber and Jet email list, which does vet people claiming British Traditional Wiccan (as United States usage terms them) traditions through multiple sources (if they're going to post with that identification on the list.)

[EmberHearth]

You're thinking of Doreen Valiente here, for the Charge (and much of the poetry that ended up in Gardnerian use). The origin of the Long Rede is a little more complicated, links over here, but the short form traces to Valiente, and the most common long version to Gwen Thomson.

Doh! Facepalm.  I should have double-checked myself.  Ah well. Thank you for knowing what I meant.

This is also a "When were these conversations?" question.

Most likely between 2001 and 2003.  Between CMA Sow-Rain and other things, I backed away from the CAW proto-nest, and focused more on the Pagans I knew through the UU congregation.   (Some of whom were the same.)

The articulation I made above has gotten somewhat more common in the past decade or so. Earlier materials and conversations tended to be a lot more obscured (and yes, "just not saying the thing that brings a particular question up" is a pretty common approach to oathbound material, and one I use myself.)

There's also the ongoing issues of what are sometimes referred to as Fraudnerians and Alexandnots - which is to say people who claim those traditions but who are not actually initiates in them. There are people out there who think they have legitimate claims, and for various reasons don't (i.e. they were trained and initiated by people who claimed those traditions, but who weren't legitimate members themselves.

Once you get a generation or two down the line, it's really hard to untangle. And of course, these people may be ethical competent witches, but they're not a great representation of the relevant traditions in that case because they don't have accurate information about the tradition in the first place.

I am neither of those traditions, but my information comes from a variety of conversations over the years, including on the Amber and Jet email list, which does vet people claiming British Traditional Wiccan (as United States usage terms them) traditions through multiple sources (if they're going to post with that identification on the list.)

The thought occurred to me. Most of what they said fit what I had read from the Farrars and Buckland, if that helps at all.  I have reason to believe that their initiator Cohen's were in Canada, probably Ontario.

OTOH, I left Texas a decade ago, and lost contact with this individual.  Most of those I still FB with, I also knew from other places.

[Zlote Jablko]

Yes, and I honor both Sunna/Sol and Mani. For some of my sky reconstructions, I've briefly looked at the Baltic and Slavic pantheons.

The Merseberg charm calls "Sinhtgunt" the sister of Sunna. Linguistically, that's thought to be a misspelling of Sinthgunt, I gather the other doesn't make sense in German. Some heathens, particularly around Raven Kaldera's Northern Tradition, think she's a star Goddess.

An Irish blessing mentions "Deep peace of the healing stars to you."

Đirona, a Gaulic goddess, is probably linguistically connected to Aster/Star.

The Brythonic Senuna was an archaeological find, no mythos yet,so it might be another Sulis Minerva / Brighid of the hot springs type,  this is the least-supported / most intuitive of my Star Goddess intuition.  I'm guessing from the sounds: Sin/Sen and gunt/un.

Very cool stuff! I'm big on comparative mythology, but I'm still getting acquainted with the various Celtic stories. The association of a star Goddess with the sun reminds me of some of Ralston's notes in his Russian fairy tale book. (link below.)

https://www.gutenberg.org/files/22373/22373-h/22373-h.htm#Page_178

"The Sun’s Sister is a mythical being who is often mentioned in the popular poetry of the South-Slavonians. A Servian song represents a beautiful maiden, with “arms of silver up to the elbows,” sitting on a silver throne which floats on water. A suitor comes to woo her. She waxes wroth and cries,

[Pg 184]
Whom wishes he to woo?
The sister of the Sun,
The cousin of the Moon,
The adopted-sister of the Dawn.
Then she flings down three golden apples, which the “marriage-proposers” attempt to catch, but “three lightnings flash from the sky” and kill the suitor and his friends.

In another Servian song a girl cries to the Sun—

O brilliant Sun! I am fairer than thou,
Than thy brother, the bright Moon,
Than thy sister, the moving star [Venus?].
In South-Slavonian poetry the sun often figures as a radiant youth. But among the Northern Slavonians, as well as the Lithuanians, the sun was regarded as a female being, the bride of the moon. “Thou askest me of what race, of what family I am,” says the fair maiden of a song preserved in the Tambof Government—

My mother is—the beauteous Sun,
And my father—the bright Moon;
My brothers are—the many Stars,
And my sisters—the white Dawns."

[EmberHearth]

Very cool stuff! I'm big on comparative mythology, but I'm still getting acquainted with the various Celtic stories. The association of a star Goddess with the sun reminds me of some of Ralston's notes in his Russian fairy tale book. (link below.)

https://www.gutenberg.org/files/22373/22373-h/22373-h.htm#Page_178

Cool quotes deleted for space.

Oooh!  Thank you for this!  I will take a look.

Wikipedia lists the morning and evening star(s), aka Venus, as daughters of the Lithuanian Saule, which gave me something to search further on.

I am aware that Zarya (Dawn) and Zvezda (Stars) are important to Slavic culture.

The three golden apples... those could be meteorites....

[Off to read...]