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Author Topic: Split between Polytheism and Paganism?  (Read 2775 times)

Castus

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Split between Polytheism and Paganism?
« on: October 22, 2016, 11:07:23 am »
So, I'm only recently getting back into the wider pagan community and I'm starting to notice a very conscious dichotomy between "polytheism" and "paganism" that I did not hitherto know existed; especially from some bloggers I've followed for awhile such as P. Sufenas Virius Lupus, Sannion, Galina Krasskova, etc etc. Can anyone give me more info on this or how it originated?
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“Believing in the Lord means you are connected to me no matter when you are poor, sick, or struggling in a relationship. I am always with you. I want you to believe that. The future is uncertain, and much suffering awaits. However, the mission of the believer is to live life doing their best, no matter what the circumstances.” — Ryuho Okawa

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Re: Split between Polytheism and Paganism?
« Reply #1 on: October 22, 2016, 11:42:27 am »
Quote from: Castus;197778
So, I'm only recently getting back into the wider pagan community and I'm starting to notice a very conscious dichotomy between "polytheism" and "paganism" that I did not hitherto know existed; especially from some bloggers I've followed for awhile such as P. Sufenas Virius Lupus, Sannion, Galina Krasskova, etc etc. Can anyone give me more info on this or how it originated?

 
I think it has something to do with distinguishing paths based on historical polytheistic cultures from the modern New Age movement, and the religions that are usually lumped into that category, like Wicca and its eclectic modifications. Although, in my experience, there isn't much of a difference, and it becomes a pretentious assertion of intellectual superiority. P. Sufenas Virius Lupus in particular just likes to give himself unique labels for attention. People in the pagan community love to act like special snowflakes.

Castus

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Re: Split between Polytheism and Paganism?
« Reply #2 on: October 22, 2016, 11:54:10 am »
Quote from: Demophon;197779
I think it has something to do with distinguishing paths based on historical polytheistic cultures from the modern New Age movement, and the religions that are usually lumped into that category, like Wicca and its eclectic modifications. Although, in my experience, there isn't much of a difference, and it becomes a pretentious assertion of intellectual superiority. P. Sufenas Virius Lupus in particular just likes to give himself unique labels for attention. People in the pagan community love to act like special snowflakes.


Interesting. I can see why some might feel such a clarification is necessary. And don't be mean to Sufenas! They're a good person >_>
“Castus, meanwhile, goes straight for the bad theology like one of those creepy fish that swims up streams of pee.” — Darkhawk

“Believing in the Lord means you are connected to me no matter when you are poor, sick, or struggling in a relationship. I am always with you. I want you to believe that. The future is uncertain, and much suffering awaits. However, the mission of the believer is to live life doing their best, no matter what the circumstances.” — Ryuho Okawa

Redfaery

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Re: Split between Polytheism and Paganism?
« Reply #3 on: October 22, 2016, 12:03:10 pm »
Quote from: Demophon;197779
Although, in my experience, there isn't much of a difference, and it becomes a pretentious assertion of intellectual superiority. =

 
I gotta agree with this assertion. I have yet to see a person pull out the "I'm not pagan, I'm a POLYTHEIST" bit without there being a strong subtext of "I'm not a fluffy, like those people." Which is frankly kind of rude.
KARMA: You keep using that word. I do not think it means what you think it means.

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Re: Split between Polytheism and Paganism?
« Reply #4 on: October 22, 2016, 01:01:13 pm »
Quote from: Demophon;197779
I think it has something to do with distinguishing paths based on historical polytheistic cultures from the modern New Age movement, and the religions that are usually lumped into that category, like Wicca and its eclectic modifications. Although, in my experience, there isn't much of a difference, and it becomes a pretentious assertion of intellectual superiority. P. Sufenas Virius Lupus in particular just likes to give himself unique labels for attention. People in the pagan community love to act like special snowflakes.

 
Putting my two cents in here, I am an Irish pagan polytheist. For me, polytheism is the belief that each God is a separate being. In other words, Macha, Rhiannon, and Epona are all associated with sovereignty / horses / fertilti. Many pagans conflate them as did the Romans with Sulis-Minerva. However, in my practice, I am a Priest of Macha and a dedicant of Epona. They are separate and distinct personalities in my UPG.
Now, my Coven is Eclectic Wicca.  I am the High Priestess. Within our Coven many pantheons are acknowledged and invited into our rituals. Although we call the Wiccan Goddess, and God,  we welcome them into the circle in their own way.

Now, I do have something to say about one of the authors the OP mentioned. I knew Galena Krasskova about 15 or so twenty years ago. She was the 'leader' of a Coven following the Fellowship for Isis. I am very suspicious of anything she is directly associated with, including covens, because she was an abusive and sell promoting leader, who did not care for those in her coven. She physically, verbally, and emotionally abused everyone in the group. I witnessed Ms. Krasskova 'channel' Tyr and physically assault another person in the group. When I objected, she turned on me and tried to assault me. When I refused to bow down to her authority, and walked out with another person, she warlocked me and cursed me with the thing she THOUGHT scared me most... Macha.

I've kept the threatening emails she sent to my friend who walked out that night. They are sad and also hysterically funny.

I am only telling you what I Personally witnessed and experienced.

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Re: Split between Polytheism and Paganism?
« Reply #5 on: October 22, 2016, 01:57:58 pm »
Quote from: Castus;197778
So, I'm only recently getting back into the wider pagan community and I'm starting to notice a very conscious dichotomy between "polytheism" and "paganism" that I did not hitherto know existed; especially from some bloggers I've followed for awhile such as P. Sufenas Virius Lupus, Sannion, Galina Krasskova, etc etc. Can anyone give me more info on this or how it originated?

 
Sunflower has said that there's a background to this before it came to my awareness, which is something that I'm going to note here for the record; that there was originally a response from the harder polytheists to some of the tendencies of general Wiccish paganism to ignore and dismiss those perspectives.  This is actually true.

However, it being true does not change the fact that basically it went near-instantly off the rails, with things like howling religious persecution about an atheist student group making a "graveyard of gods" somewhere.  (Which is where I first heard of people doing this thing - people who were undeniably a product of the Pagan Cultural Soup saying that no, they were Not Pagans, despite the fact that they were wandering around dripping broth everywhere.)

It has gone increasingly batshit since, with, at this point, a variety of these hardline polytheists not only insisting that they are polytheistic, not pagan, but that "polytheism" means something more than "having multiple gods" and entails certain perspectives on belief and practice that others must adhere to in order to be sufficiently pure.

The #mypolytheism response is a backlash from other polytheists against that strand, meanwhile.
as the water grinds the stone
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as our ashes turn to dust
we shine like stars    - Covenant, "Bullet"

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Re: Split between Polytheism and Paganism?
« Reply #6 on: October 22, 2016, 02:01:19 pm »
Quote from: Castus;197780
Interesting. I can see why some might feel such a clarification is necessary. And don't be mean to Sufenas! They're a good person >_>

Lupus is, as far as I can tell, a very lonely, hurting person who has decided that eir only chance for social support is throwing in with people who are promulgating a flatly abusive version of polytheism.

I hope e gets somewhere better, but I've given up on communicating with em personally, as no amount of effort on my part leads to success.
« Last Edit: October 22, 2016, 02:01:52 pm by Darkhawk »
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Castus

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Re: Split between Polytheism and Paganism?
« Reply #7 on: October 22, 2016, 02:32:32 pm »
Quote from: Darkhawk;197784
Sunflower has said that there's a background to this before it came to my awareness, which is something that I'm going to note here for the record; that there was originally a response from the harder polytheists to some of the tendencies of general Wiccish paganism to ignore and dismiss those perspectives.  This is actually true.

However, it being true does not change the fact that basically it went near-instantly off the rails, with things like howling religious persecution about an atheist student group making a "graveyard of gods" somewhere.  (Which is where I first heard of people doing this thing - people who were undeniably a product of the Pagan Cultural Soup saying that no, they were Not Pagans, despite the fact that they were wandering around dripping broth everywhere.)

It has gone increasingly batshit since, with, at this point, a variety of these hardline polytheists not only insisting that they are polytheistic, not pagan, but that "polytheism" means something more than "having multiple gods" and entails certain perspectives on belief and practice that others must adhere to in order to be sufficiently pure.

The #mypolytheism response is a backlash from other polytheists against that strand, meanwhile.


I remember Heathen Chinese "breaking" the graveyard of god thing. I remember being offended as well; although not necessarily feeling persecuted...
 
Quote from: Darkhawk;197785
Lupus is, as far as I can tell, a very lonely, hurting person who has decided that eir only chance for social support is throwing in with people who are promulgating a flatly abusive version of polytheism.

I hope e gets somewhere better, but I've given up on communicating with em personally, as no amount of effort on my part leads to success.

 
I see. I consider Sufenas to be something of a friend, and have contacted him personally on numerous occasions. I've always found such interaction rewarding.
“Castus, meanwhile, goes straight for the bad theology like one of those creepy fish that swims up streams of pee.” — Darkhawk

“Believing in the Lord means you are connected to me no matter when you are poor, sick, or struggling in a relationship. I am always with you. I want you to believe that. The future is uncertain, and much suffering awaits. However, the mission of the believer is to live life doing their best, no matter what the circumstances.” — Ryuho Okawa

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Re: Split between Polytheism and Paganism?
« Reply #8 on: October 22, 2016, 08:19:01 pm »
Quote from: Phouka;197783
When I refused to bow down to her authority, and walked out with another person, she warlocked me and cursed me with the thing she THOUGHT scared me most... Macha.

 
You've told that story a number of times over the years on TC, but until now (when it's relevant!) I don't recall that you've ever identified the person who did it.

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Re: Split between Polytheism and Paganism?
« Reply #9 on: October 23, 2016, 12:06:53 am »
Quote from: Demophon;197779
I think it has something to do with distinguishing paths based on historical polytheistic cultures from the modern New Age movement, and the religions that are usually lumped into that category, like Wicca and its eclectic modifications. Although, in my experience, there isn't much of a difference, and it becomes a pretentious assertion of intellectual superiority. P. Sufenas Virius Lupus in particular just likes to give himself unique labels for attention. People in the pagan community love to act like special snowflakes.

 
I actually do make the distinction between the two, though my perspective is a little different. I do it to distinguish between theological issues between different reconstructionist paths.

I actually was not aware that the issue was so contentious.

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Re: Split between Polytheism and Paganism?
« Reply #10 on: October 23, 2016, 03:15:29 am »
Quote from: Phouka;197783
For me, polytheism is the belief that each God is a separate being.

 
How does that work with 'soft polytheism'?
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