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Author Topic: Question about Wiccan Belief  (Read 2864 times)

Tamina

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Question about Wiccan Belief
« on: October 24, 2011, 11:41:54 am »
I'm bopping around, trying to figure out more about religious witchcraft. I'm interested in using the Celtic Pantheon in my practice and have been talking a lot on their SIG board.
I’m also doing some serious Google-fu. One of the things that I’m looking at is Celtic Wicca, now that I know a bit more about the origins of Wicca, but I’ve ome across a certain sentiment that, if true, would derail that process because that is not what I believe.

Basically I want to know, is this true: Wiccans worship a Goddess and a God whom they understand as manifestations of a higher and unknown Deity.

Please, I'm learning so if I've totally stuck my foot into my mouth and asked the stupidest question in the universe, I'm sorry.
« Last Edit: October 24, 2011, 08:18:10 pm by RandallS »

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Re: Questin about Wiccan Belief.
« Reply #1 on: October 24, 2011, 11:52:49 am »
Quote from: Tamina;27220
Basically I want to know, is this true: Wiccans worship a Goddess and a God whom they understand as manifestations of a higher and unknown Deity.

 
The first response is "Which Wicca are you talking about?"

That is a reasonably common neo-Wiccan belief.  It is not, however, mainline British Traditional Wicca, which honors two specific deities whose names are not shared with non-members.

In general, though, belief in many Wiccan groups is not a major concern for membership; people share circles with others who have wildly varying beliefs about deity, because their concern is with praxis and experience of the Mysteries.
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Tamina

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Re: Questin about Wiccan Belief.
« Reply #2 on: October 24, 2011, 11:59:53 am »
Quote from: Darkhawk;27224
The first response is "Which Wicca are you talking about?"

That is a reasonably common neo-Wiccan belief.  It is not, however, mainline British Traditional Wicca, which honors two specific deities whose names are not shared with non-members.


I guess I probably should have been more specific, but that's pretty much a quote directly from the page that I was reading. So. I"m not really sure at all which Wicca I'm talking about. I'm still floundering about, tryin to make sure what's me and what's not. Maybe my question should have been: "Is this something that I have to accept if I become any kind of Wiccan? Do I have to accept that above my Gods there is another unknown God that people are going to tell me it's really the 'Chistian God' (intepret that as loose as necessary) and that's who I'm really worshiping?

I don't want that. Not that they're wrong if that's what they believe, that's fine. But I'm trying to figure out where I fit.

Quote from: Darkhawk;27224
praxis and experience of the Mysteries.

 
Also, I'm not sure what that means.

Thanks for helping me clear this up.

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Re: Questin about Wiccan Belief.
« Reply #3 on: October 24, 2011, 12:32:19 pm »
Quote from: Tamina;27225
Maybe my question should have been: "Is this something that I have to accept if I become any kind of Wiccan? Do I have to accept that above my Gods there is another unknown God that people are going to tell me it's really the 'Chistian God' (intepret that as loose as necessary) and that's who I'm really worshiping?


It's not impossible that there's groups out there that would insist on that kind of thing - but really, as Darkhawk says, there's a huge variety of beliefs about the nature of deity.

I know you've mentioned reading my Seeking site: I am an ardent polytheist, who believes there are lots of different deities out there.

I think it's sort of theoretically possible that there's some overarching divine spark out there from whom all other deities emerge - but if so, it's about like "There's one point from which the human race emerges, and that's sort of cool, but I'm a lot more interested in the people I interact with, and how they're awesome, and why I spend time with them." Likewise, I'm more interested in the Gods I have specific interactions with, rather than their great-great-great-great-whatever point of origin.

A lot of NeoWiccan type sources do push the "All Gods are one God" or "all Gods emege from a single divine source" mode more heavily: those modes don't do anything for me either, or for a number of other people. So, you're at least in company with that.

(As Darkhawk also said, but is worth reiterating: the British Traditional Wicca trads honor two specific deities whose names aren't shared. It's like saying you're going to the doctor, but not sharing the name. The doctor still has a specific identity and personality and interests and all that, you're not seeing some amporphous concept-of-doctor.)
 
Also, I'm not sure what that means.

On Darkhawk's comment about the praxis and experience of the Mysteries:

There are these things called religious mysteries, by which we mean things that you can't understand until you've experienced them or been placed in a ritual setting that somehow illuminates them for you.

Lots of religions have them: in Christianity, the concept of Jesus's death and resurrection is a religious mystery.

There also mysteries that aren't fundamentally religious: my favorite example is sex. You can read all the romance novels you like, and all the how-to guides - but unless and until you have sex yourself, there's a lot about it you don't fully understand (if nothing else, you won't fully understand how it feels to have sex with your particular body.)

Friendship is a mystery. Love is a mystery. Sacrifice of self for the good of others is a mystery. All sorts of stuff.

There are also religious mystery-focused traditions. Mainstream Christianity mostly isn't one (though there are elements in specific practices or customs) because it's so heavily focused on drawing a wide range of people in.

But initiatory religious witchcraft, like the priesthood paths of many religions, is pretty full of them: a series of experiences that explore and illuminate particular practices, goals, or other things of importance on that path.

British Traditional Wicca - and various other initiatory witchcraft paths - are focused around the practice (hence: praxis) and experience of those mysteries, generally in service of whatever Gods they honor, and the cycle of the seasons (for Wicca) or whatever other goals.

Other stuff is nice - but it's not the point. (And other stuff covers a lot of ground: personal transformation, healing, learning, teaching, etc. Lots and lots of good stuff. But that is not the core goal of the work: the center of the work is the mysteries.)
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Tamina

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Re: Questin about Wiccan Belief.
« Reply #4 on: October 24, 2011, 03:05:17 pm »
Quote from: Jenett;27232
It's not impossible that there's groups out there that would insist on that kind of thing - but really, as Darkhawk says, there's a huge variety of beliefs about the nature of deity.

I know you've mentioned reading my Seeking site: I am an ardent polytheist, who believes there are lots of different deities out there.

I think it's sort of theoretically possible that there's some overarching divine spark out there from whom all other deities emerge - but if so, it's about like "There's one point from which the human race emerges, and that's sort of cool, but I'm a lot more interested in the people I interact with, and how they're awesome, and why I spend time with them." Likewise, I'm more interested in the Gods I have specific interactions with, rather than their great-great-great-great-whatever point of origin.

A lot of NeoWiccan type sources do push the "All Gods are one God" or "all Gods emege from a single divine source" mode more heavily: those modes don't do anything for me either, or for a number of other people. So, you're at least in company with that.

(As Darkhawk also said, but is worth reiterating: the British Traditional Wicca trads honor two specific deities whose names aren't shared. It's like saying you're going to the doctor, but not sharing the name. The doctor still has a specific identity and personality and interests and all that, you're not seeing some amporphous concept-of-doctor.)
 
Also, I'm not sure what that means.

On Darkhawk's comment about the praxis and experience of the Mysteries:

There are these things called religious mysteries, by which we mean things that you can't understand until you've experienced them or been placed in a ritual setting that somehow illuminates them for you.

Lots of religions have them: in Christianity, the concept of Jesus's death and resurrection is a religious mystery.

There also mysteries that aren't fundamentally religious: my favorite example is sex. You can read all the romance novels you like, and all the how-to guides - but unless and until you have sex yourself, there's a lot about it you don't fully understand (if nothing else, you won't fully understand how it feels to have sex with your particular body.)

Friendship is a mystery. Love is a mystery. Sacrifice of self for the good of others is a mystery. All sorts of stuff.

There are also religious mystery-focused traditions. Mainstream Christianity mostly isn't one (though there are elements in specific practices or customs) because it's so heavily focused on drawing a wide range of people in.

But initiatory religious witchcraft, like the priesthood paths of many religions, is pretty full of them: a series of experiences that explore and illuminate particular practices, goals, or other things of importance on that path.

British Traditional Wicca - and various other initiatory witchcraft paths - are focused around the practice (hence: praxis) and experience of those mysteries, generally in service of whatever Gods they honor, and the cycle of the seasons (for Wicca) or whatever other goals.

Other stuff is nice - but it's not the point. (And other stuff covers a lot of ground: personal transformation, healing, learning, teaching, etc. Lots and lots of good stuff. But that is not the core goal of the work: the center of the work is the mysteries.)

 
Thanks. You've given me a lot to think about, and a lot to go over with myself, before I even think about getting back to you. But it's a journey, and I'm enjoying it.

Micheál

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Re: Questin about Wiccan Belief.
« Reply #5 on: October 24, 2011, 03:15:31 pm »
Quote from: Tamina;27220
I'm bopping around, trying to figure out more about religious witchcraft. I'm interested in using the Celtic Pantheon in my practice and have been talking a lot on their SIG board.
I’m also doing some serious Google-fu. One of the things that I’m looking at is Celtic Wicca, now that I know a bit more about the origins of Wicca, but I’ve ome across a certain sentiment that, if true, would derail that process because that is not what I believe.

Basically I want to know, is this true: Wiccans worship a Goddess and a God whom they understand as manifestations of a higher and unknown Deity.

Please, I'm learning so if I've totally stuck my foot into my mouth and asked the stupidest question in the universe, I'm sorry.

You've already received some great responses, and one thing not uncommon to seekers at all is getting into the what "type" of Wicca we're talking about. Wicca's exact origins remain debatable, there have been loads of books written about it(one good one elaborating on the subject is Wicca Magickal Beginnings by Sorita D'este&David Rankine), but the important thing to remember is that the question of its origins is not pertinent to the actual praxis.

As a Traditional Wiccan I'll say, yes(at least Gardnerian&Alexandrian) Wiccans work with(or more correctly worship in a symbiotic relationship) two main archetypical deities, that are oath-bound, commonly refereed to as the Horned God&Fertility Goddess. The exact interpretation of the divine is subjective, and open to personal interpretation, because being an orthopraxic mystery tradition, more emphasis is put on practice, than belief. You mentioned the Christian God, which can even be broken down further into the God of Abraham&the polarities of the Qabalah that stemmed from Jewish polytheism, Godheads, monads&monadology, and the list can go on. I actually know of a Gardnerian High Priestess that is also a (very liberal) Jew.

Now one element that you don't see emphasised often is that it is common for Trad Wiccans to adhere to the energy&myths of the land. Therefore, for example, living in Ireland, Irish deities and very important to me personally, as well as my coven. It isn't uncommon for Traditional Wiccans to feel drawn to, and adhere to certain Gods&pantheons at all. Now there are other types of un-lineaged Wicca(Eclectic, Solitary, e.t.c.) which is more or a personal spirituality, therefore it's a lot harder to define a praxis of tradition, or even belief. It's more or less up to the individual in that manner, or whatever eclectic tradition that they belong to.

Miss

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Re: Questin about Wiccan Belief.
« Reply #6 on: October 24, 2011, 03:16:26 pm »
Quote from: Tamina;27220
I'm bopping around, trying to figure out more about religious witchcraft. I'm interested in using the Celtic Pantheon in my practice and have been talking a lot on their SIG board.
I’m also doing some serious Google-fu. One of the things that I’m looking at is Celtic Wicca, now that I know a bit more about the origins of Wicca, but I’ve ome across a certain sentiment that, if true, would derail that process because that is not what I believe.

Basically I want to know, is this true: Wiccans worship a Goddess and a God whom they understand as manifestations of a higher and unknown Deity.

Please, I'm learning so if I've totally stuck my foot into my mouth and asked the stupidest question in the universe, I'm sorry.

 
I also want to say that it's okay to not be Wiccan. I have read of people reading Wiccan books, labeling their practice as Wiccan, and then feeling totally lost and angry when someone tells them that are not actually Wiccan. It's okay to practice another form of religious witchcraft and not be labeled under Wicca.

This may not even apply to you, but I figured I'd say it anyways just in case =)

Tamina

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Re: Questin about Wiccan Belief.
« Reply #7 on: October 24, 2011, 04:07:42 pm »
Quote from: Micheál;27252
It's more or less up to the individual in that manner, or whatever eclectic tradition that they belong to.


That's a very very lot of information. My mind is still kinda boggling at all the different points that you mentioned. But this is totaly what I'm taking away from it. I am an individual, and I don't have to fit amold if I don't want to. It's hard to keep that in mnd sometimes, I guess because I've lived my whole lifr trying to fit what I know into a mold, or just ignoring it all together.
 
Quote from: Miss;27253
This may not even apply to you, but I figured I'd say it anyways just in case =)


It helps me. I don't know if I'll ever fit into a mold, and that's kind of not my intent anyway. I'll be mostly a person who does my own thing with friends who I talk to and can discuss things with and will be happy for me and what i achieve no matter our beliefs.

I guess, I'm more worried about acceptance than I thought. I think that's definately something that I should work on.

CinnamonBrooms

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Re: Questin about Wiccan Belief.
« Reply #8 on: October 24, 2011, 05:09:08 pm »
Quote from: Tamina;27220
I'm bopping around, trying to figure out more about religious witchcraft. I'm interested in using the Celtic Pantheon in my practice and have been talking a lot on their SIG board.
I’m also doing some serious Google-fu. One of the things that I’m looking at is Celtic Wicca, now that I know a bit more about the origins of Wicca, but I’ve ome across a certain sentiment that, if true, would derail that process because that is not what I believe.

Basically I want to know, is this true: Wiccans worship a Goddess and a God whom they understand as manifestations of a higher and unknown Deity.

Please, I'm learning so if I've totally stuck my foot into my mouth and asked the stupidest question in the universe, I'm sorry.

 Not all Wiccans follow the same beliefs :) My mom was a Dianic Wiccan (Witch), she focused more on the Goddess & had little to nothing vested into the God. My sister is the same & for her the Goddess is the major player & the God is just a sidelinesman. I don't know what my mother thought of a higher god, but my sister does not believe there is one.

CinnamonBrooms

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Re: Questin about Wiccan Belief.
« Reply #9 on: October 24, 2011, 05:12:53 pm »
Quote from: CinnamonBrooms;27266
.

 Wait, I'm still learning this all, but I remember reading once that some Wiccans believed that the God/Goddess where two parts of the same Higher God.
Does that sound right to anyone else or did I read rubbish? :confused:

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Re: Question about Wiccan Belief.
« Reply #10 on: October 24, 2011, 05:49:14 pm »
Quote from: CinnamonBrooms;27268
Wait, I'm still learning this all, but I remember reading once that some Wiccans believed that the God/Goddess where two parts of the same Higher God.
Does that sound right to anyone else or did I read rubbish? :confused:

 
My (limited) understanding is this: Some people believe there is a Higher Power, with the Goddess(es) and God(s) being a step below It in the hierarchy. Some people believe that the Goddess(es) and God(s) are expressions and/or manifestations of said Higher Power, and not necessarily separate entities in Their own rights. Some people believe there is one Goddess and/or one God, and names vary from person to person.

Basically, your mileage may vary. It's about what feels right for you.
Do. Or do not. There is no try.  --Yoda, The Empire Strikes Back

We are star stuff. We are the universe, made manifest. --Ambassador Delenn, Babylon 5

ForeverLearning

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Re: Questin about Wiccan Belief.
« Reply #11 on: October 24, 2011, 06:43:03 pm »
Quote from: Tamina;27220

Basically I want to know, is this true: Wiccans worship a Goddess and a God whom they understand as manifestations of a higher and unknown Deity.

Please, I'm learning so if I've totally stuck my foot into my mouth and asked the stupidest question in the universe, I'm sorry.


Well, as a practicing Solitary Eclectic Wiccan (quite a mouthful right there) I can give you my personal interpertation. I do believe that we all sprung from one common source. This is mostly because I was raised with the Yoga Sutras and with the philosophy that we are all interconnected in some way. I have a very broad mindset when it comes to religion, to be honest. I see the God and Goddess not as seperate deities but as titles for the feminine and masculine energies. I believe that all gods of all pantheons exist, and I also believe that these gods have personalities, and are seperate from us. But at the same time they only present these personalities to us so they're easier to comprehend. Goddess, to me, is just a name for the feminine energy that runs through all Goddesses. She is both a seperate diety and not a seperate diety, and though I honer Her in rites I still believe that every god and goddess ever honered exists in some way. Same with the God: He is just an algamation of all masculine energy, and then some. So rather then believing in two dieties, I believe in all dieties, and I believe they are all connected into one unnamable undefinable force. In that sense, it's not traditionally Wiccan, but at the same time it is. Sorry about the long reply--make of it what you will, and remember that there are lots of us out there, lots of different beliefs to chose from--or you can reject them and strike out on your own.
My occupation? I don\'t really have one--but in my spare time I look through my telescope searching for that curious man in the flying blue box.

Miss

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Re: Questin about Wiccan Belief.
« Reply #12 on: October 24, 2011, 07:32:29 pm »
Quote from: Tamina;27220
I'm bopping around, trying to figure out more about religious witchcraft. I'm interested in using the Celtic Pantheon in my practice and have been talking a lot on their SIG board.
I’m also doing some serious Google-fu. One of the things that I’m looking at is Celtic Wicca, now that I know a bit more about the origins of Wicca, but I’ve ome across a certain sentiment that, if true, would derail that process because that is not what I believe.

Basically I want to know, is this true: Wiccans worship a Goddess and a God whom they understand as manifestations of a higher and unknown Deity.

Please, I'm learning so if I've totally stuck my foot into my mouth and asked the stupidest question in the universe, I'm sorry.

 
I also struggled with the concept of deity and interconnected energy a few weeks ago, and then someone explained her view to me that made everything click. I had trouble thinking of all gods and goddess as one, but I did feel that there was something divine that spread through everything.

Then someone told me that they saw it more like divine DNA. There is a divine energy that spreads through you, me, your cat, the trees outside, and even the Gods. You and me are not the same person, we just have this divine energy source flowing through us.

I also think this energy has polarity to it and if I ever mention God and Goddess, it's not because I'm duotheistic. =)

Thought I'd also add that as well. Figuring out your personal beliefs in deity can be sooo frustrating and confusing! I swear, it felt like there was a hurricane going in my head and I became quite obsessive over trying to sort it all out! There's so many interpretations...after that woman explained her view to me it was such a huge relief.

Tamina

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Re: Questin about Wiccan Belief.
« Reply #13 on: October 24, 2011, 08:11:20 pm »
Quote from: ForeverLearning;27284
 Sorry about the long reply--make of it what you will, and remember that there are lots of us out there, lots of different beliefs to chose from--or you can reject them and strike out on your own.

Thank you all for your thougts. I really appreciate them. Sometimes, after a ton of serious thought, I look back on the things that I asked and say to myself, "Why did I ever think that was true?" lol

This is really helping me work through things. I'm slowly gathering my base of what I believe, and actually thinking about putting some riuals together. Thanks.
« Last Edit: October 24, 2011, 08:12:34 pm by Tamina »

MarieBay

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Re: Questin about Wiccan Belief.
« Reply #14 on: October 24, 2011, 09:32:21 pm »
Quote from: Tamina;27306

This is really helping me work through things. I'm slowly gathering my base of what I believe, and actually thinking about putting some riuals together. Thanks.

 

That's awesome, Tamina! Not to further overwhelm you or anything, but Ronald Hutton's book on the history of modern pagan witchcraft in Great Britain (The Triumph of the Moon) is a good one to check out if you're looking for some solid history and a dense read.

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