Popular inaccuracies new (and less new) pagans should avoid

[RandallS]

The theories I've quoted are common knowledge and common guesses/interpretation. I don't pretend to believe that any/all of them are true. Nor do I have a bibliography of every book or every movie I have read/watched in the past 50 years. Nor am I making any claims regarding Atlantis. So get over it and do your own research.

*** MOD HAT ON ***

There are two problems here: First, on TC the burden of proof is with the one making the claim -- especially if it is an uncommon claim. Telling someone to do their own research to back up your claim about Atlantis, yet) is not going to fly on this forum. Second, do not tell other people what they should or should not do on this forum unless you are a moderator -- and you are not. No one has to "get over your refusal to back up your statements and you are not authorized to tell them to do so in posts on this forum.

[Jack]

If I were a Gardnarian and said, "Sorry Third Degree secret," we'd all laugh but you'd take me at my word and leave me the heck alone.

Um, no. But thanks for assuming we care more about your trad than your sources.

FROM THE FIRST when questioned, I told you believe me or not, but I cannot will not give you documentation.  What part of 99% of that documentation isn't available on the web do you not get?

I don't expect sources to be available on the web but I certainly expect you to cite them. I'm more than happy to put Worldcat to use once I know where to look.

If nothing else I'm a big fan of Atlantis, I love finding new Atlantis books.

To say that your trad has thousand year old manuscripts in a language entirely unknown to modern scholarship and that they're kept... in some elder's attic or something makes my inner Indiana Jones cringe. (It belongs in a museum...)

(I know that's a problematic opinion in other contexts especially with still-living cultures but the idea that there are SURVIVING RECORDS WRITTEN BY ACTUAL DRUIDS that are being kept in some guy's attic or something makes me feel sort of ill. I'm much happier believing your trad is exaggerating because the alternative is much, much sadder.)

What part of I would rather have you disbelieve me than say things I am not authorized to say?

You keep saying that, but then you complain that I'm disbelieving so... I'm not sure.

And whether or not you believe me (I care less) what gives you the right to badger when I have already said, "sorry no."

Um... the board rules?

[stephyjh]

 
Just going to hang a link here, to something a friend of mine wrote a while back.

[SunflowerP]

Agreed regarding the number of people who died in the Burning Times. We don't know the number, but it was far likely less than 9 million.

We know - in the form of carefully-researched scholarly estimates - more about the numbers than you appear, based on your word choices, to think.

I single this out, because of how it pertains to why you feel beleaguered in this thread: people on TC are accustomed to a far higher standard of scholarship than is found in most other pagan spaces online, a standard that, going by your posts, you are not accustomed to having to meet. I don't, by this, intend to imply that you're unable to meet them (I don't have enough evidence to tell if you are or not), or that those who are unable to are unwelcome here (on the contrary, this is a place where those who aren't yet able to can learn to do so) - I'm simply noting that you don't appear to be accustomed to the expectation.

Take, for instance, your initial response to the other items Stephy mentions. It reads as though your intent was to refute Stephy's points, or at least to dispute some of her specifics. In particular:

I mention this because while Gardner may have started his own religion (or not) it is eminently possible that much of this was based on older paths and traditions.

This statement on its own is fine (there is in fact evidence of that very thing - see, f'ex, Ronald Hutton's Triumph of the Moon). But if you want to use your own tradition as further evidence, you must be prepared to back up how and why it constitutes evidence. This is what people are pressing you for.

Sunflower

[Viv]

You know...sue me...I don't recall my source for that particular claim. Try reading National Geographic something. Contrary to your belief, it is neither my job nor my desire to spoon feed you.

Okay!:stop: Did you even READ the forum rules prior to posting? Here's the link to the rules and a few in particular that should explain why your vague and unsubstantiated claims are being challenged. This is how TC works. It is one of the things I love most about TC...no B.S. goes unchallenged. I would expect to be treated exactly the same if I were in your shoes.

Form Rules Link A good read for all new members. Seriously, it helps you get off on the right foot around here.

Rules that apply to your current situation: (Bolding and underlining are mine)


•DO expect to be asked for sources to support any unusual factual claims you may make. If you chose to back those claims with poor sources (wikipedia and other encyclopedias, dictionaries, popular press books written by non-experts, out-of-date academic books, etc.), do not be surprised where they are not considered convincing, let alone authoritative.

•The Cauldron: A Pagan Forum is a discussion and debate board devoted to critical thinking. Beliefs and ideas that may be accepted with little question on some other boards will likely be strongly questioned here. While we ask our more experienced members to be polite in refuting incorrect information and dodgy ideas, The Cauldron: A Pagan Forum is devoted to critical thinking, so expect to see incorrect information and ideas mercilessly (and often bluntly) shot down and be aware that if there are likely mundane explanations for something, they are going to preferred to supernatural explanations. If this is unacceptable to you, chances are that this forum is not the message board for you.

•DO remember that you are not your opinions and beliefs. An attack on your opinions and beliefs in debate is not an attack on you. If attacks on your opinions and beliefs seem like personal attacks to you, you will probably want to bow out of topics that turn into heated discussions or debates.

[Viv]

I do not have a heck of a lot of physical evidence I can offer. There are documents which I do not have access to. They are as I understand it, back in Wales, however I do not have access to them at this time. There is also the lore of my trad which once again has no /little physical documentation. It is my understanding that my teacher has witnessed several documents which are approximately 500-1000 years old plus. I have absolutely no reason to doubt his veracity in this.

Then there are various trad secrets which include a language/alphabet system probably derived from the Celts or before that. I am sorry, but I am not at liberty to disclose these. One small part of our lore made it into a popular movie (we are not sure how) and another popular pagan book but I cannot even give the title of the movie/book without betraying secrets.

I can say that I have personally done research to verify that what I have said seems to be true, however I cannot share that research.

I'm sorry if any of that leaves you with the idea that I might be making things up, or leaves you feeling unsatisfied, or disbelieving me. I will say that what I know and have researched, I believe to be true. You will have to decide for yourself.

Wish I could add more, but vows prevent me. I would rather be ignored/discredited than break those vows.

 
Just out of curiosity, your tradition wouldn't happen to be the one founded in 1986 in FL by Lord Ash, would it? The one based on the Draconian Path of Wicca/Wysardn?
The one that is  amalgam of Welsh Celtic, Celtic Traditional Wicca and Wysardn Colleges?

[RandallS]

Okay!:stop: Did you even READ the forum rules prior to posting? Here's the link to the rules and a few in particular that should explain why your vague and unsubstantiated claims are being challenged.

*** MOD HAT ON ***

You apparently failed to read the rule about leaving moderating to the moderators?

DO NOT attempt to moderate other members. Leave the moderating to the  forum staff and hosts. If you believe a forum post violates the rules in  a major way, you may bring that post to the attention of the forum  staff by reporting that message with the "Report to moderator" link. You  can bring non-forum problems to the attention of staff by emailing a  staff member via their profile.

You are not a moderator. Please do not try to moderate.  Thank you.[/mod]

[Viv]

*** MOD HAT ON ***

You apparently failed to read the rule about leaving moderating to the moderators? You are not a moderator. Please do not try to moderate.  Thank you.

 
My deepest apologies RandallS. Did not realize that was what I was doing. I will keep that in mind from here on out. Thank you for the heads up.

[yennork]

/snip/

To say that your trad has thousand year old manuscripts in a language entirely unknown to modern scholarship and that they're kept... in some elder's attic or something makes my inner Indiana Jones cringe. (It belongs in a museum...)

(I know that's a problematic opinion in other contexts especially with still-living cultures but the idea that there are SURVIVING RECORDS WRITTEN BY ACTUAL DRUIDS that are being kept in some guy's attic or something makes me feel sort of ill. I'm much happier believing your trad is exaggerating because the alternative is much, much sadder.)/snip

 
THIS!!  We are supposed to believe there are existing documents that would change much of history as we know it, and some family trad hides them away from the rest of us?

Just lovely. :sick:

[Darkhawk]

If I were a Gardnarian and said, "Sorry Third Degree secret," we'd all laugh but you'd take me at my word and leave me the heck alone.

 
Actually, if someone claiming to be a Gardnerian was throwing around phrases like "Third degree secret!" I would probably immediately doubt that they were properly lineaged, because actual BTW tend to be better at knowing how to handle oathbound material than that.

It is, I repeat, a violation of oathbound material as I understand it to point to the secret and say "The thing that's right there, I'm not allowed to tell you what it is" because that is telling something very revealing about oathbound material.

[dionysiandame]

:pop:

Speaking of occult languages in movies! I hate it when people take inaccuracies from popular culture and start putting them in their practice without noticing the difference and taking it into account.

 
Oh yeah mean like the Angel Banishing Sigil from Supernatural that people have called "Enochian Magick" despite it not being mentioned anywhere else but Supernatural?

Don't get me wrong, I think it's GREAT that main stream programming is attracting new people to the occult but I sometimes wonder about the...erm...something something of some of said people when they start passing around demon summoning cheat sheets (In case of emergencies TEE-HEE!) on Tumblr. :pop:

[Sophia C]

:pop:
 
Oh yeah mean like the Angel Banishing Sigil from Supernatural that people have called "Enochian Magick" despite it not being mentioned anywhere else but Supernatural?

Don't get me wrong, I think it's GREAT that main stream programming is attracting new people to the occult but I sometimes wonder about the...erm...something something of some of said people when they start passing around demon summoning cheat sheets (In case of emergencies TEE-HEE!) on Tumblr. :pop:

Only sort-of similar - but we had a Celtic knot pattern on our wedding invitations, and someone asked me if we were having a 'Charmed'-themed wedding...

[Jack]

:pop:
 
Oh yeah mean like the Angel Banishing Sigil from Supernatural that people have called "Enochian Magick" despite it not being mentioned anywhere else but Supernatural?

There was an episode of Sleepy Hollow (which I generally enjoy) where they pulled out a box inscribed with runes and referred to the ancient language of the druids and I was like Y U DO THIS?!?

[Jack]

Only sort-of similar - but we had a Celtic knot pattern on our wedding invitations, and someone asked me if we were having a 'Charmed'-themed wedding...

I am picturing the look on your face in response to that and it is hilarious.

[dionysiandame]

There was an episode of Sleepy Hollow (which I generally enjoy) where they pulled out a box inscribed with runes and referred to the ancient language of the druids and I was like Y U DO THIS?!?

 
That's how you know it's MAJICKAL and POWERFUL!