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Author Topic: Patrons question (Mixed)  (Read 1914 times)

crea1a

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Patrons question (Mixed)
« on: May 14, 2015, 10:50:25 pm »
when you mixed patrons from different pantheons do you only believe in said god(ess) or do you believe in the whole of each pantheon but only worship the selected. for example if you worship Loki do you also believe in Odin, Thor, etc.

also does mixing different paths bog some of you down. I noticed right off from searching a lot of people seem to be following their own marching orders cause it's what resonates with them. Perhaps that's the allure I see with paganism (esp. polytheistic ones) that there is no one way. that two people can believe in a the same thing yet hold different ideals of it.
« Last Edit: May 14, 2015, 10:51:46 pm by crea1a »

Scales

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Re: Patrons question (Mixed)
« Reply #1 on: May 14, 2015, 11:31:05 pm »
Quote from: crea1a;175011
when you mixed patrons from different pantheons do you only believe in said god(ess) or do you believe in the whole of each pantheon but only worship the selected. for example if you worship Loki do you also believe in Odin, Thor, etc.

also does mixing different paths bog some of you down. I noticed right off from searching a lot of people seem to be following their own marching orders cause it's what resonates with them. Perhaps that's the allure I see with paganism (esp. polytheistic ones) that there is no one way. that two people can believe in a the same thing yet hold different ideals of it.

 
I can only reply to the top. In my experience personally and with others, people believe in the whole of the pantheon (and sometimes in all pantheons, but only work with or really think about the one the deity in question is from). To me this makes sense, especially in hard polytheism where every deity is seen as independent- if your deity didn't have its pantheon around it, a lot of its history and mythology would be out the window too, and then where would your deity be? Also it seems like a bit of a contradiction, especially for 'lesser' deities, to believe in one but not the others.

The only real exception I can think of is in monism rhetoric, if you see all deities as aspects of a single deity, in which case perhaps you might only believe in the 'top' deity, while still acknowledging the influence of the different characteristics of the pantheon? I'm not sure here, just considering what might work.

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Re: Patrons question (Mixed)
« Reply #2 on: May 15, 2015, 02:14:07 am »
Quote from: crea1a;175011
when you mixed patrons from different pantheons do you only believe in said god(ess) or do you believe in the whole of each pantheon but only worship the selected. for example if you worship Loki do you also believe in Odin, Thor, etc.

also does mixing different paths bog some of you down. I noticed right off from searching a lot of people seem to be following their own marching orders cause it's what resonates with them. Perhaps that's the allure I see with paganism (esp. polytheistic ones) that there is no one way. that two people can believe in a the same thing yet hold different ideals of it.


I'm a polytheist, so for me, all the gods exist whether I worship them or not; their existence isn't really dependent of my belief in them, either. So just because I currently worship a few Egyptian gods, and a few Greek gods, doesn't mean the rest of the pantheon doesn't exist. They do; They're just not relevant to my practice. There are far, far too many gods for that, anyway, and most probably aren't interested in me. And that's fine. The fewer I have to worry about, the better.

And re your second point, I tried the whole multiple separate paths thing, but it didn't work for me. What ultimately worked for me was finding a single path and practice that could work for everything and everyone. Perhaps it's not historically reconstructed, but when you end up working with gods from a handful of different pantheons, it's too hard to keep it all separate. I don't have the brain capacity for that. Learning to say no to gods, and being willing to negotiate, is also a really helpful skill to master.

Which is not to say I ignore the cultural backgrounds of my gods, because that's really important in getting to know Them and what They want from me. And I do try to include some cultural markers in ritual, if possible. But, to be honest, Greek and Egyptian gods mesh pretty well, and I've not found myself bogged down by that at all. Doing ritual in a way that works for me is what's most important, not how historically accurate it is. I am, after all, only one person, without any of the priestly training the old priests had, and without any of the same amount of resources and space, so I do what I can, and the gods seem happy enough with that.
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crea1a

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Re: Patrons question (Mixed)
« Reply #3 on: May 15, 2015, 04:54:25 am »
Quote from: Scales;175013
I can only reply to the top. In my experience personally and with others, people believe in the whole of the pantheon (and sometimes in all pantheons, but only work with or really think about the one the deity in question is from). To me this makes sense, especially in hard polytheism where every deity is seen as independent- if your deity didn't have its pantheon around it, a lot of its history and mythology would be out the window too, and then where would your deity be? Also it seems like a bit of a contradiction, especially for 'lesser' deities, to believe in one but not the others.

The only real exception I can think of is in monism rhetoric, if you see all deities as aspects of a single deity, in which case perhaps you might only believe in the 'top' deity, while still acknowledging the influence of the different characteristics of the pantheon? I'm not sure here, just considering what might work.


thanks for responding

Jabberwocky

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Re: Patrons question (Mixed)
« Reply #4 on: May 15, 2015, 07:23:20 am »
Quote from: Scales;175013
I can only reply to the top. In my experience personally and with others, people believe in the whole of the pantheon (and sometimes in all pantheons, but only work with or really think about the one the deity in question is from). To me this makes sense, especially in hard polytheism where every deity is seen as independent- if your deity didn't have its pantheon around it, a lot of its history and mythology would be out the window too, and then where would your deity be? Also it seems like a bit of a contradiction, especially for 'lesser' deities, to believe in one but not the others.


 
I'm a hard agnostic, but within that I'm pretty solidly a hard polytheist.  A lot of that is practical.  My personal experience suggests that treating deities as individuals (and I'm using deities in the broadest sense here, so it includes pop culture figures) is something that I find a lot more useful and productive as a method.  The "deity as representational archetype" model of working isn't one that has ever really done it for me.
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Re: Patrons question (Mixed)
« Reply #5 on: May 15, 2015, 07:24:11 am »
Quote from: crea1a;175011

also does mixing different paths bog some of you down.

 
Not in my view.  It's about doing it well.
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Jainarayan

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Re: Patrons question (Mixed)
« Reply #6 on: May 15, 2015, 09:04:33 am »
Quote from: Jabberwocky;175021
It's about doing it well.

 
That's the tricky part, I think... learning to do it well. Not all gods work together nicely or play in the sandbox together, even though one may be drawn to them. I wouldn't keep Loki and Heimdall enshrined together, but I might keep Odin and Loki enshrined together. I wouldn't keep a Hindu or Buddhist deity enshrined with a Norse deity. All this even though I may worship each of them, but separately.
śivāya vishnu rūpaya śivaḥ rūpaya vishnave
śivasya hridayam viṣṇur viṣṇoscha hridayam śivaḥ
Vishnu's appearance is Shiva; Shiva's appearance is Vishnu
Vishnu is the heart of Shiva; Shiva is the heart of Vishnu - Skandopanishad
 

Yei

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Re: Patrons question (Mixed)
« Reply #7 on: May 15, 2015, 06:41:16 pm »
Quote from: crea1a;175011
when you mixed patrons from different pantheons do you only believe in said god(ess) or do you believe in the whole of each pantheon but only worship the selected. for example if you worship Loki do you also believe in Odin, Thor, etc.

also does mixing different paths bog some of you down. I noticed right off from searching a lot of people seem to be following their own marching orders cause it's what resonates with them. Perhaps that's the allure I see with paganism (esp. polytheistic ones) that there is no one way. that two people can believe in a the same thing yet hold different ideals of it.

 
I think that a few decades ago eclecticism was very popular, and has since declined in favour of more dedicated (perhaps narrow depending on one's perspective) focus. I think this has occurred due to a greater emphasis on historical sources, and the need to find more practical methods of worship in day to day life. I could be wrong of course, as this all happened before my time.

So I think that nowadays people tend to think about how the mix there pantheons and ensure both that their gods co-operate and that their worship fits with their surroundings. Not that I would know the details, as I am fairly strict with my own pantheon.

Jenett

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Re: Patrons question (Mixed)
« Reply #8 on: May 15, 2015, 07:13:13 pm »
Quote from: crea1a;175011
when you mixed patrons from different pantheons do you only believe in said god(ess) or do you believe in the whole of each pantheon but only worship the selected. for example if you worship Loki do you also believe in Odin, Thor, etc.

also does mixing different paths bog some of you down. I noticed right off from searching a lot of people seem to be following their own marching orders cause it's what resonates with them. Perhaps that's the allure I see with paganism (esp. polytheistic ones) that there is no one way. that two people can believe in a the same thing yet hold different ideals of it.

 
As others have said, there's a difference between 'believing in' and 'worshipping or working closely with'.

I believe lots of people exist who I am never going to come into direct contact with. And there are lots of people who I may have some contact with (share a bus or a waiting room or whatever) where the interaction is so minor as to be non-existent.

I honour specific deities in my personal work. I honour others in my tradition and group work (when there's group work, which there hasn't been for a while.) Sometimes these things don't fit together tidily, but often it's not a big deal.

I think of it a lot like "Do I invite the people I know from work and the people I know from college to the same party?" Sometimes I do. Sometimes I don't, because it's not the right fit, or the right occasion to mix those people together. Sometimes some of the people I know a particular way are a great fit for a thing, but not everyone is.

But it's about the people and the situation, not "Oh, gosh, I know these people from different places" or "All of my friends from X place automatically should be invited to Y thing"

I find the resulting ritual practice sometimes takes a little thought, but about as much as my social calendar does.
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Faemon

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Re: Patrons question (Mixed)
« Reply #9 on: May 16, 2015, 04:08:42 am »
Quote from: crea1a;175011
when you mixed patrons from different pantheons do you only believe in said god(ess) or do you believe in the whole of each pantheon but only worship the selected


To my understanding, belief isn't a single unit...belief is a system, often with moving parts. Most pantheons come from the belief systems of a culture of which Loki is as much a product as Tyr.

So, it would be strange if I said that I believed in Loki and Artemis but not in the rest of the Norse and Greek pantheons. It would be another thing to say that that my belief system is different than strict Reconstructionism but I use the language of Paganism to express some concepts (and the concepts don't need anybody else from the respective pantheons at the moment), or that I have no personal experience or interest in any other mythological figures, or even that I despise other deities for whatever reason and would not invite their presence, or that I "believe but don't actively worship" or even "believe but don't know"; all of which I guess could still be conveyed by a flat-out, "I don't believe."

Surely some pagans out there draw the line somewhere: "I believe in Odin and Kali but not in Santa Claus. And also Herne the Hunter was just made-up. Do not talk to me about pop culture paganism."

But to examine the components of my own belief system and where those components fit, definitely makes your question a very strange one to me. What do you mean by "believe"?

Quote
also does mixing different paths bog some of you down.


Not by itself, but there have been times to hold contradiction without resolution, to ignore accusations of appropriation (hello, white pride heathens), or tolerate intolerance (no use getting into a screaming match with somebody who's so sure that you're the one doing it wrong when it comes to personal beliefs and that if you talk enough then they can change it or if you fight them then they can prove themselves or some nonsense.)

None of those have been pleasant. I just off and made my own.
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Demophon

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Re: Patrons question (Mixed)
« Reply #10 on: May 25, 2015, 08:43:18 am »
Quote from: crea1a;175011
when you mixed patrons from different pantheons do you only believe in said god(ess) or do you believe in the whole of each pantheon but only worship the selected. for example if you worship Loki do you also believe in Odin, Thor, etc.

also does mixing different paths bog some of you down. I noticed right off from searching a lot of people seem to be following their own marching orders cause it's what resonates with them. Perhaps that's the allure I see with paganism (esp. polytheistic ones) that there is no one way. that two people can believe in a the same thing yet hold different ideals of it.

 
The thing about paganism is that what one "believes" doesn't really matter very much. There is probably a whole spectrum of beliefs when it comes to the gods, which is fine. You can believe in the gods any way that makes sense according to your own experience. There is no strict orthodoxy. Being pagan is more about what you do rather than what you believe/think/feel inside.

Redfaery

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Re: Patrons question (Mixed)
« Reply #11 on: May 26, 2015, 03:10:05 am »
Quote from: Demophon;175370
The thing about paganism is that what one "believes" doesn't really matter very much. There is probably a whole spectrum of beliefs when it comes to the gods, which is fine. You can believe in the gods any way that makes sense according to your own experience. There is no strict orthodoxy. Being pagan is more about what you do rather than what you believe/think/feel inside.

 
Heads up: there is no unified "Paganism" and speaking as if there were tends to irritate people, because...well, the default-paganism that gets bandied about is so often erasive of the diversity under the umbrella.

I mean, for me, my personal faith is very much about the things I believe/think/feel inside.
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Re: Patrons question (Mixed)
« Reply #12 on: May 26, 2015, 09:34:44 am »
Quote from: crea1a;175011
when you mixed patrons from different pantheons do you only believe in said god(ess) or do you believe in the whole of each pantheon but only worship the selected. for example if you worship Loki do you also believe in Odin, Thor, etc.


I actually didn't answer the question as posed, so here goes.

I've begun to give more attention to the Hindu gods, whom I sort of put in a drawer for a while. The Norse pantheon are my primary pantheon, with Thor as my fulltrui, "trusted friend". I got my tongue ripped out and stomped on for using the word 'patron'. Some people get pissy about the word. :rolleye:: From the Hindu pantheon I have to say Hanuman is my fulltrui. He and Thor complement each other. Both are gods of strength, courage and protection, but while Thor is very much to the point (smite first, talk later), a little "slow on the uptake" at times (think of a big good-natured friendly college jock), and very much a party-bro. Hanuman is very clever and resourceful, and playful. They make a good team. And of course I believe in all the other gods too. I also believe the gods of other pantheons and cultures exist too, and I may give them a nod of acknowledgement, though I may not worship them. I don't worry about it, because someone somewhere worships them.

Quote
also does mixing different paths bog some of you down. I noticed right off from searching a lot of people seem to be following their own marching orders cause it's what resonates with them. Perhaps that's the allure I see with paganism (esp. polytheistic ones) that there is no one way. that two people can believe in a the same thing yet hold different ideals of it.


At first it caused me conflict to hold onto the Hindu pantheon while focusing on the Norse. I don't practice Hinduism anymore, in the sense of the ritual worship, but I am back to thinking of and talking to the gods. I have to set up a proper shrine again. I've come to realize that most gods do not care if we worship them or not, though they are probably tickled pink when we do. They don't micromanage our lives, and very often you have to scream at them to get their attention. They are very busy after all. I think most gods are happy to be able to take a break from helping everyone, and leaving something to another god(dess).

What I don't do is enshrine them together and make the same offerings. The Norse gods like mead, beer and ale, and meat. That is almost never offered to the Hindu deities, though there are exceptions in tantric paths. Pagan and Heathen paths, especially reconstructed ones contain a lot of UPG and MUS (unsubstantiated personal gnosis and made up shit :p).
śivāya vishnu rūpaya śivaḥ rūpaya vishnave
śivasya hridayam viṣṇur viṣṇoscha hridayam śivaḥ
Vishnu's appearance is Shiva; Shiva's appearance is Vishnu
Vishnu is the heart of Shiva; Shiva is the heart of Vishnu - Skandopanishad
 

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