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Author Topic: Patron Gods  (Read 2833 times)

Gilbride

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Re: Patron Gods
« Reply #15 on: October 15, 2012, 09:30:30 am »
Quote from: TonupGael;76618
I don't think there's any evidence that the Celts had any Patron Deities.


There is actually evidence of devotion to specific deities. We know of people with names like "Mog Nuadat" ("Slave of Nuada"), or "Cunobelinus" ("Hound of Belenus"). Names of this type usually describe the person as the slave, servant, son, daughter, hound or champion of a particular god or goddess. If that's not evidence of personal devotion to a particular deity, I don't know what it is.

Marilyn/Absentminded

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Re: Patron Gods
« Reply #16 on: October 16, 2012, 05:25:47 am »
Quote from: Gilbride;76715
If that's not evidence of personal devotion to a particular deity, I don't know what it is.


Why would personal devotion to a deity imply a patronage relationship?  

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Gilbride

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Re: Patron Gods
« Reply #17 on: October 16, 2012, 08:49:24 am »
Quote from: Marilyn/Absentminded;76783
Why would personal devotion to a deity imply a patronage relationship?

 
I don't use the word "patron" in the first place but I'm not sure what distinction you're drawing between devotional worship of a particular deity and what most neopagans (other than me) call "having a patron god." Can you clarify?

Marilyn/Absentminded

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Re: Patron Gods
« Reply #18 on: October 16, 2012, 11:33:20 am »
Quote from: Gilbride;76790
I don't use the word "patron" in the first place but I'm not sure what distinction you're drawing between devotional worship of a particular deity and what most neopagans (other than me) call "having a patron god." Can you clarify?

 
You may not have used the term, but you replied to a post that said the Celts did not have patron deities by pointing out that the Celts were often personally devoted to their gods, which implied that you saw some kind of connection between the two statements.

I don't know most neopagans, but the way I usually see the term used in this kind of discussion is that a patron god takes a personal interest in the specific worshipper, guiding, teaching, and usually giving tasks to them.  A person being devoted to a deity does not imply that it is reciprocated - the common use of patron does.

I am of the camp that believes gods are patrons of cities, professions, dynasties, and intangible values, rather than of individuals.

Absent
I smile when I\'m angry.  I cheat and I lie
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And I die for the truth in my secret life

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veggiewolf

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Re: Patron Gods
« Reply #19 on: October 16, 2012, 11:55:02 am »
Quote from: Marilyn/Absentminded;76797
...A person being devoted to a deity does not imply that it is reciprocated - the common use of patron does.

I am of the camp that believes gods are patrons of cities, professions, dynasties, and intangible values, rather than of individuals.

Absent

 
Now, I recognize by asking this that I'm opening the terminology can o'worms again but...

If one has an individual relationship with deity that is reciprocal, what should that be called?  I don't use the word "patron" for my own god relationships...but is there common term that can be used that won't be subject to debate?
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Maps

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Re: Patron Gods
« Reply #20 on: October 16, 2012, 12:26:59 pm »
Quote from: veggiewolf;76800
Now, I recognize by asking this that I'm opening the terminology can o'worms again but...

If one has an individual relationship with deity that is reciprocal, what should that be called?  I don't use the word "patron" for my own god relationships...but is there common term that can be used that won't be subject to debate?

 
I'm sorta thinking along the lines of a personal cult or Mystery relationship.

Gilbride

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Re: Patron Gods
« Reply #21 on: October 16, 2012, 01:43:41 pm »
Quote from: Marilyn/Absentminded;76797
I don't know most neopagans, but the way I usually see the term used in this kind of discussion is that a patron god takes a personal interest in the specific worshipper, guiding, teaching, and usually giving tasks to them.  A person being devoted to a deity does not imply that it is reciprocated - the common use of patron does.


Okay, got it. I do in fact believe that devotion to a deity implies a reciprocal relationship where the deity guides the worshiper, but I can see why some might not.

Aster Breo

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Patron Gods
« Reply #22 on: October 16, 2012, 03:04:58 pm »
Quote from: Gilbride;76810
Okay, got it. I do in fact believe that devotion to a deity implies a reciprocal relationship where the deity guides the worshiper, but I can see why some might not.

I'm fairly sure that both kinds of relationships exist.  

Some people have actively reciprocal relationships with their deities. (Although "reciprocal" might not be the best word since it implies a certain level of equality.  That is, the human honors the god/dess through prayer, offerings, etc., and the god/dess reciprocates with assistance, favors, blessings, etc.  That kind of equality might not actually exist in a human-god/dess relationship, even when both parties are actively engaged in the relationship.)

Other people are just as devoted to their deities but never hear anything in return.  (Although, I suppose an argument can be made that the god/dess in this case is, in fact, reciprocating, but the human isn't aware of it.)

The question seems to me to be mostly semantic:  What do we call each kind of relationship?  

I think my own relationship with Brighid falls into the reciprocal category.  She has done a great deal to protect and help my family and me.  I have had the honor of hearing Her voice on a few occasions.  Even so, there are long stretches of time when I don't hear from Her directly.  I have faith that She is always with me and that She will help when needed, but I don't hear or feel Her all the time.  

I don't have a good word for this relationship. I don't know how She views it, but I consider myself Her dedicant.  Several centuries ago, I might have considered myself Brighid's priestess and felt called to some sort of service like that -- something analogous to the druids in ancient Celtic society or more recent monastic groups.  But our society is no longer set up that way.

However, that only really describes my side of the relationship -- what I am to Her, not what She is to me. I understand that "patron" isn't completely accurate, at least historically.  But I don't know what else to call it.

Just tossing that out there FWIW.

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Fier

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Re: Patron Gods
« Reply #23 on: October 16, 2012, 03:10:16 pm »
Quote from: veggiewolf;76800
I don't use the word "patron" for my own god relationships.

 
Out of curiosity, why not?

veggiewolf

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Re: Patron Gods
« Reply #24 on: October 16, 2012, 03:15:39 pm »
Quote from: FierFlye;76815
Out of curiosity, why not?


I guess it is because the word doesn't cover the relationship.  When I think of a patron, I think of someone that supports and/or protects - and my relationship with at least one of my gods is so much more than that.
Fluid Morality - my spiritual blog
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"Religion does not define a deity- it defines the human approach and interpretation of deity." - Juni
"I hate magical thinking in my magic." - Darkhawk
"...a baseball club; a soccer unkindness; a hockey murder; a football team..." - Cecil, Welcome to Night Vale

Nachtigall

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Re: Patron Gods
« Reply #25 on: October 16, 2012, 03:19:02 pm »
Quote from: Aster Breo;76813
Other people are just as devoted to their deities but never hear anything in return. (Although, I suppose an argument can be made that the god/dess in this case is, in fact, reciprocating, but the human isn't aware of it.)

 
I think, another way to look at it is to assume, that any attraction towards a deity doesn't appear from nowhere, but is always inspired by the deity themselves. There's the question, "did I really choose this deity myself, or was I chosen without knowing it?"

I guess, this is what Gilbride meant? Or am I seeing it wrong?

Gilbride

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Re: Patron Gods
« Reply #26 on: October 16, 2012, 03:29:17 pm »
Quote from: Nachtigall;76821
I guess, this is what Gilbride meant? Or am I seeing it wrong?


Yes, and also that it is hard for me to imagine a relationship with a deity where you *never* felt that the deity was contacting you, guiding you or giving direction in some way.

Gilbride

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Re: Patron Gods
« Reply #27 on: October 16, 2012, 03:30:48 pm »
Quote from: Aster Breo;76813
I don't know how She views it, but I consider myself Her dedicant.  


Yes, that's how I view my relationship with Her as well.

Aster Breo

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Patron Gods
« Reply #28 on: October 16, 2012, 03:44:20 pm »
Quote from: Gilbride;76823
Yes, and also that it is hard for me to imagine a relationship with a deity where you *never* felt that the deity was contacting you, guiding you or giving direction in some way.

That isn't my experience either, but I've heard other people describe this kind of relationship many times.
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Marilyn/Absentminded

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Re: Patron Gods
« Reply #29 on: October 16, 2012, 06:26:57 pm »
Quote from: veggiewolf;76800


If one has an individual relationship with deity that is reciprocal, what should that be called?  I don't use the word "patron" for my own god relationships...but is there common term that can be used that won't be subject to debate?


I honestly don't know.  I feel that 'patron' already has a meaning, and don't like seeing it stretched out of shape, but I don't know if there is a more precise word.  It may be that that sort of relationship has become part of the words meaning at this point and I am simply behind the times.

Absent
I smile when I\'m angry.  I cheat and I lie
I do what I have to do to get by
But I know what is wrong, and I know what is right
And I die for the truth in my secret life

   In My Secret Life, L. Cohen

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