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Author Topic: Opening up, going deeper, and maybe using titles instead of naming names?  (Read 2937 times)

Allaya

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Re: Opening up, going deeper, and maybe using titles instead of naming names?
« Reply #15 on: February 05, 2016, 12:52:38 pm »
Quote from: Jenett;186218
Many many people who identify as Christians in the United States have very little idea of historical or current debates about theology, apologetics, or other details. They know about what their particular denomination and congregation does (and what their part in it is), and many will know something about why.

The average is slightly better for really current topics (ordination of women in some denominations in the recent past, how to deal with ordination of GLBT clergy, how to deal with same-sex marriages) but even there, there are tons of people who not only don't know the details, but make it fairly clear they don't care.

Often that 'something' comes from the religious education classes in their own religion, which might have been 20 or 40 or 60 years ago (and 40 or 60 years ago, a lot of the teaching was rote memorisation or 'here is the thing we believe, with no discussion). A lot of that has changed in many places, now, but there's a huge variation in how much deeper theological or philosophical understanding people have (or want to have.)

One thing that I think can be hard for people outside the US to understand about the US in religious terms is that it can be very fragmented: there may only be a one congregation of a particular denomination within a reasonable transportation range, or even in metropolitan areas, only a couple that are realistically good choices for a given family or individual.

Within that church space, there may not be that many people who are interested in deeper discussion about religious topics, and in any given year, the ones who are may have other things that are a higher priority in their life (young children, eldery parents, acute illness, just plain focusing on something else.)

It's a chronic complaint of both my mother and my confirmation sponsor (both Catholic) about how much work they have to do to find deeper conversations about religion, and that's in Boston, a city with a multitude of Catholic parishes, a seminary, and a bunch of other intelligent and intellectually inclined people.

Many parishes sort of specialise (this one does great music, that one has a wonderful religious education program, this one has a bigger social justice focus, this one is much more traditional for the people who like that sort of thing), but it means the people with a more philosophical and theological focus tend to have to look for things like university enrichment classes, or a few specialised settings that aren't always easy to get to. Many do things piecemeal by running into other people at other events and then talking more.

 
The sad thing is that I have a wider 'church education' than a lot of people I know back home by virtue of the fact that my particular church was the unwanted stepchild of our synod assembly and we were without a regular pastor for...maybe a decade? So ministers of other denominations filled in on an 'as available' basis.

I think my favorite in a "wow, that's ridiculous" sense was the retired Army chaplain from a fire-and-brimstone Baptist denomination.  He had all the gentle Lutheran old ladies jumping out of their skins when the sermons got shouty about HELLFIRE, SIN, AND DAMNATION.
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No doubt the truth can be unpleasant, but I am not sure that unpleasantness is the same as the truth.  — Roger Ebert
It is difficult to get a person to understand something when their livelihood depends upon them not understanding it. — Upton Sinclair (adapted)
People cannot be reasoned out of an opinion that they have not reasoned themselves into. — Fisher Ames (adapted)

Allaya

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Re: Opening up, going deeper, and maybe using titles instead of naming names?
« Reply #16 on: February 05, 2016, 12:55:55 pm »
Quote from: StagTracker;186206
One thing someone in my grove pointed me to that built on that was "Sea, Sky, Soil: An Introduction to Waincraft."  That takes a lot of the European pantheons and presents a generalized pantheon based on roles like you described.

 
Thank you for mentioning that book. I'd completely forgotten I'd wanted to look through it!
Service is the rent we pay for the privilege of living on this earth.  — Shirley Chisholm
No doubt the truth can be unpleasant, but I am not sure that unpleasantness is the same as the truth.  — Roger Ebert
It is difficult to get a person to understand something when their livelihood depends upon them not understanding it. — Upton Sinclair (adapted)
People cannot be reasoned out of an opinion that they have not reasoned themselves into. — Fisher Ames (adapted)

RecycledBenedict

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Re: Opening up, going deeper, and maybe using titles instead of naming names?
« Reply #17 on: February 05, 2016, 01:32:04 pm »
Quote from: Allaya;186217
I have no idea who any of those people are. Seriously.

Additionally, it would likely been seen as horrendously elitist to name-drop authors like that since the general assumption is that "well, doesn't everyone do that?" leads to the tacit conclusion that "since you haven't, you are clearly nobody of importance".


I can assure you, that it is not my intention, that my reply shall be seen in that way.

RecycledBenedict

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Re: Opening up, going deeper, and maybe using titles instead of naming names?
« Reply #18 on: February 05, 2016, 01:33:45 pm »
Quote from: Jenett;186218
It's a chronic complaint of both my mother and my confirmation sponsor (both Catholic) about how much work they have to do to find deeper conversations about religion, and that's in Boston, a city with a multitude of Catholic parishes, a seminary, and a bunch of other intelligent and intellectually inclined people.
(...)  but it means the people with a more philosophical and theological focus tend to have to look for things like university enrichment classes, or a few specialised settings that aren't always easy to get to.


I am very disappointed to hear this.

Jack

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Re: Opening up, going deeper, and maybe using titles instead of naming names?
« Reply #19 on: February 05, 2016, 01:41:31 pm »
Quote from: FraterBenedict;186216
I am sorry to hear that. Does people not read Gregory Nazianzen, Pseudo-Dionysius Areopagita, John Scotus Eriugena and meister Eckehart on your side of The Pond? Or even Paul Tillich?

 
Has the average Swede really read Pseudo-Dionysius? Do you do theology in school or does everybody just pick it up casually on the weekends?
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Sarah

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Re: Opening up, going deeper, and maybe using titles instead of naming names?
« Reply #20 on: February 05, 2016, 01:49:53 pm »
Quote from: FraterBenedict;186216
I am sorry to hear that. Does people not read Gregory Nazianzen, Pseudo-Dionysius Areopagita, John Scotus Eriugena and meister Eckehart on your side of The Pond? Or even Paul Tillich?

 
Personally, I'm more interested in feminist theologians
Knowing when to use a shovel is what being a witch is all about. Nanny Ogg, Witches Abroad

Allaya

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Re: Opening up, going deeper, and maybe using titles instead of naming names?
« Reply #21 on: February 05, 2016, 02:04:50 pm »
Quote from: FraterBenedict;186222
I can assure you, that it is not my intention, that my reply shall be seen in that way.

 
No fears, there. I know you didn't mean it that way. I really enjoy your posts and look forward to them even if I sometimes have to look things up. Keep posting!

It was more how such a thing might be perceived by a randomly selected person from back in the US. There is a great deal of sensitivity to any possible slight or insult to one's education or lack thereof and the manifestation of this sensitivity seems to drive a feedback loop of anti-intellectualism. It's very unfortunate.
Service is the rent we pay for the privilege of living on this earth.  — Shirley Chisholm
No doubt the truth can be unpleasant, but I am not sure that unpleasantness is the same as the truth.  — Roger Ebert
It is difficult to get a person to understand something when their livelihood depends upon them not understanding it. — Upton Sinclair (adapted)
People cannot be reasoned out of an opinion that they have not reasoned themselves into. — Fisher Ames (adapted)

RecycledBenedict

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Re: Opening up, going deeper, and maybe using titles instead of naming names?
« Reply #22 on: February 05, 2016, 03:03:59 pm »
Quote from: Jack;186225
Has the average Swede really read Pseudo-Dionysius?


No, but he was popular in the retreat-movement, and not only among the Russian Orthodox (whom we may expect to be interested in his writings), but also among some Lutherans, Catholics and Pentecostals. As you may have noticed in other replies of mine on this forum, one of the reasons I left Lutheranism was because the spiritual depth I found in the retreat-movement wasn't present in ordinary parishes.

RecycledBenedict

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Re: Opening up, going deeper, and maybe using titles instead of naming names?
« Reply #23 on: February 05, 2016, 03:07:50 pm »
Quote from: Jake_;186227
Personally, I'm more interested in feminist theologians


I can understand the appeal of that. Personally, I don't think the antidote against one type of literalism is adding another type of literalism, but to go beyond the figure-of-speeech of genders. But I am fond of what Gail Ramshaw has written.

Juniperberry

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Re: Opening up, going deeper, and maybe using titles instead of naming names?
« Reply #24 on: February 05, 2016, 03:32:13 pm »
Quote from: Jack;186225
Has the average Swede really read Pseudo-Dionysius? Do you do theology in school or does everybody just pick it up casually on the weekends?

 
My German SIL has told me that they need to register as Catholics again at their municipal center, because if not, my niece will be required to attend an Ethics School (rather than the public school?) once she's school-age.

Crazy how cultures can be different.
The pace of progress in artificial intelligence (I’m not referring to narrow AI) is incredibly fast. [...] The risk of something seriously dangerous happening is in the five year timeframe. 10 years at most.--Elon Musk

I am in the camp that is concerned about super intelligence," [Bill] Gates wrote. "First the machines will do a lot of jobs for us and not be super intelligent. That should be positive if we manage it well. A few decades after that though the intelligence is strong enough to be a concern. I agree with Elon Musk and some others on this and don\'t understand why some people are not concerned."

Juniperberry

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Re: Opening up, going deeper, and maybe using titles instead of naming names?
« Reply #25 on: February 05, 2016, 03:35:59 pm »
Quote from: Allaya;18622

It was more how such a thing might be perceived by a randomly selected person from back in the US. There is a great deal of sensitivity to any possible slight or insult to one's education or lack thereof and the manifestation of this sensitivity seems to drive a feedback loop of anti-intellectualism. It's very unfortunate.

IOW, watch out for the concern trolls.
« Last Edit: February 05, 2016, 03:36:14 pm by Juniperberry »
The pace of progress in artificial intelligence (I’m not referring to narrow AI) is incredibly fast. [...] The risk of something seriously dangerous happening is in the five year timeframe. 10 years at most.--Elon Musk

I am in the camp that is concerned about super intelligence," [Bill] Gates wrote. "First the machines will do a lot of jobs for us and not be super intelligent. That should be positive if we manage it well. A few decades after that though the intelligence is strong enough to be a concern. I agree with Elon Musk and some others on this and don\'t understand why some people are not concerned."

RecycledBenedict

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Re: Opening up, going deeper, and maybe using titles instead of naming names?
« Reply #26 on: February 05, 2016, 03:49:39 pm »
Quote from: Juniperberry;186234
My German SIL has told me that they need to register as Catholics again at their municipal center, because if not, my niece will be required to attend an Ethics School (rather than the public school?) once she's school-age.

Crazy how cultures can be different.


That's Germany. Here in Sweden History of Religion is one of the subjects in school taught in a non-confessional way.

If I remember correctly, I first encountered Pseudo-Dionysius when I had finished the mandatory reading matter in Philosophy class, and asked my Philosophy teacher about more about Plato and Aristotle, and was recommended an overview of philosophy from the time of the Middle Platonists to the Renaissance. I must have been 16 or 17. I had a good Philosophy teacher.

Juniperberry

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Re: Opening up, going deeper, and maybe using titles instead of naming names?
« Reply #27 on: February 05, 2016, 05:05:06 pm »
Quote from: FraterBenedict;186236
That's Germany. Here in Sweden History of Religion is one of the subjects in school taught in a non-confessional way.

If I remember correctly, I first encountered Pseudo-Dionysius when I had finished the mandatory reading matter in Philosophy class, and asked my Philosophy teacher about more about Plato and Aristotle, and was recommended an overview of philosophy from the time of the Middle Platonists to the Renaissance. I must have been 16 or 17. I had a good Philosophy teacher.



Ah. As I understand it, religious education is also mandatory in German schools and the Ethics schools accommodate the diverse immigrant population. Does Sweden have anything similar?
« Last Edit: February 05, 2016, 05:06:41 pm by Juniperberry »
The pace of progress in artificial intelligence (I’m not referring to narrow AI) is incredibly fast. [...] The risk of something seriously dangerous happening is in the five year timeframe. 10 years at most.--Elon Musk

I am in the camp that is concerned about super intelligence," [Bill] Gates wrote. "First the machines will do a lot of jobs for us and not be super intelligent. That should be positive if we manage it well. A few decades after that though the intelligence is strong enough to be a concern. I agree with Elon Musk and some others on this and don\'t understand why some people are not concerned."

RecycledBenedict

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Re: Opening up, going deeper, and maybe using titles instead of naming names?
« Reply #28 on: February 05, 2016, 05:54:37 pm »
Quote from: Juniperberry;186239
Ah. As I understand it, religious education is also mandatory in German schools and the Ethics schools accommodate the diverse immigrant population. Does Sweden have anything similar?


I do not understand how the German system of education is structured. What you describe doesn't sound similar to anything I have seen here in Sweden. Ethics schools? All Swedish primary schools and secondary schools have to give classes in non-confessional history of religion, i.e. not education in any particular religions but education about them, sometimes mixed with history, geography and social studies. It is also given in most alternatives in sixth form/lycée, especially the curriculi designed to prepare for Arts and Humanities on university level.

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