Magic, deities and atheism/agnosticism

[Jujulinda]

Next month it will have been a year since I found this site and really decided to set off on paganism after studying a bit off and on for several years. I always knew it was a vast landscape but I really had no idea. It's beautiful and I love it.

With that being said, I know I'm still a baby and ill practiced but I feel like I've grown an exponential amount. I know that one can hold the beliefs that they choose and we have a vast array of people on here but I still feel like I'm doing something wrong. I don't know why. I've found that no matter what I try I'm still an atheist in the ways of deities. Not that it's a bad thing and I know there are atheists on here who practice different things. I think there's some sort of "spiritual" energy in ourselves and the world and that's how magic is done. I also think that plant energies, rivers, forests etc..have their own energies that have been seen as fairies and the like. But I can't for the life of me put my head around deities. I find it an interesting concept. I feel like I can't believe in other spiritual forces if I can't believe in deities.

I hold the belief that anything is possible but I don't personally believe it. I don't mock or scorn others for it. I find it highly interesting and informative. I have celebrated the different seasons with little rituals here and there and have practiced some magic. I feel the energy and spirit in the world and I feel a great reverence to it. I always have. I want to continue my magic practices and seasonal observances. I think I'm getting stuck in my own head. I'm sorry if I'm just rambling.

I want to explore other things but I know I'm holding myself back because of my weird hang up but I feel like I would be betraying that culture or set of beliefs if they hold beliefs in deities. Does anybody else feel this way?

EDIT: This is sort of a side note but I'm also interested in darker magic in a way. Maybe not so many flowers and love to all. I find a hard time connecting to things like that so I generally edit it. I don't mean darker as in death and hexes and such. Well, death in a "circle of life" sort of way. I enjoy the darker side of life and relate to things like that well. Vodou intrigues me but it's a religion in sorts and I don't want to take and not care about where it comes from. If anybody gets this and can help, that would be awesome. Thank you.

[veggiewolf]

...

I hold the belief that anything is possible but I don't personally believe it...

I'm not sure I understand what you're saying here.  Could you clarify?

EDIT: This is sort of a side note but I'm also interested in darker magic in a way. Maybe not so many flowers and love to all. I find a hard time connecting to things like that so I generally edit it. I don't mean darker as in death and hexes and such. Well, death in a "circle of life" sort of way. I enjoy the darker side of life and relate to things like that well.

Darker in what sense?

Vodou intrigues me but it's a religion in sorts and I don't want to take and not care about where it comes from. If anybody gets this and can help, that would be awesome. Thank you.

Vaudun is a religion and there are people here on TC that can direct you to resources if you're in any way interesting in learning about it.

[Owl]

Next month it will have been a year since I found this site and really decided to set off on paganism after studying a bit off and on for several years. I always knew it was a vast landscape but I really had no idea. It's beautiful and I love it.

With that being said, I know I'm still a baby and ill practiced but I feel like I've grown an exponential amount. I know that one can hold the beliefs that they choose and we have a vast array of people on here but I still feel like I'm doing something wrong. I don't know why. I've found that no matter what I try I'm still an atheist in the ways of deities. Not that it's a bad thing and I know there are atheists on here who practice different things. I think there's some sort of "spiritual" energy in ourselves and the world and that's how magic is done. I also think that plant energies, rivers, forests etc..have their own energies that have been seen as fairies and the like. But I can't for the life of me put my head around deities. I find it an interesting concept. I feel like I can't believe in other spiritual forces if I can't believe in deities.

I hold the belief that anything is possible but I don't personally believe it. I don't mock or scorn others for it. I find it highly interesting and informative. I have celebrated the different seasons with little rituals here and there and have practiced some magic. I feel the energy and spirit in the world and I feel a great reverence to it. I always have. I want to continue my magic practices and seasonal observances. I think I'm getting stuck in my own head. I'm sorry if I'm just rambling.

I want to explore other things but I know I'm holding myself back because of my weird hang up but I feel like I would be betraying that culture or set of beliefs if they hold beliefs in deities. Does anybody else feel this way?

EDIT: This is sort of a side note but I'm also interested in darker magic in a way. Maybe not so many flowers and love to all. I find a hard time connecting to things like that so I generally edit it. I don't mean darker as in death and hexes and such. Well, death in a "circle of life" sort of way. I enjoy the darker side of life and relate to things like that well. Vodou intrigues me but it's a religion in sorts and I don't want to take and not care about where it comes from. If anybody gets this and can help, that would be awesome. Thank you.

So you don't believe things until you experience them or can prove them?  Join the club.  But if a deity wants to contact you, you WILL know it, don't worry.  Perhaps you should try to experience a Voudon ceremony if that interests you.  Seeing could be believing......

[Jujulinda]

I'm not sure I understand what you're saying here.  Could you clarify?

Darker in what sense?

Vaudun is a religion and there are people here on TC that can direct you to resources if you're in any way interesting in learning about it.

Well, I mean anything could be possible...but I don't personally believe it but I don't discredit it if others do and have had experiences with it. It may be in the head, it may be a real force but to people who've experienced it, it's real. I haven't, so it's not real for me but if it happens to me it will be. If that makes sense.

I guess everything I've come across, no matter how far I look for spells or anything in the magical sense, has Wicca flavors to it or is pretty much Wicca without the Lord and Lady. I have several Wiccan friends and I like Wicca but it's not me. I have a really hard time articulating what I mean by this. Maybe I should give it more thought first. Thank you.

I know it is a religion and I really like the bits I've read about in it but I haven't looked up much else since it's an established religion. I've also read some misleading things about how it's just magic. I like the darker aspect of it. I mean it's not "dark" as in gothic etc..but the connection to death and how it's perfectly normal. While that's in a lot of things I've felt way more that vibe from what I've read of it and I really like it. If you could point me in the direction or if someone could help me that would be cool. Thank you.
 

So you don't believe things until you experience them or can prove them?  Join the club.  But if a deity wants to contact you, you WILL know it, don't worry.  Perhaps you should try to experience a Voudon ceremony if that interests you.  Seeing could be believing......

I would be very interested in doing something like that. I'm very open to anything and everything. I live in Missouri. There's not much in the way of anything other then churches here. I mean there is a larger population of pagan people but it's not what I'm looking for. I've even looked up events in the area and it's nothing to what I'm looking for.

If I sound like a complete and total asshole, I don't mean to. I'm just really bad at saying what I'm thinking. This would be a lot easier if it were a poem and I feel really stupid for posting this thread. :/

[veggiewolf]

Well, I mean anything could be possible...but I don't personally believe it but I don't discredit it if others do and have had experiences with it. It may be in the head, it may be a real force but to people who've experienced it, it's real. I haven't, so it's not real for me but if it happens to me it will be. If that makes sense.

That makes sense, and thank you for clarifying.  

I guess everything I've come across, no matter how far I look for spells or anything in the magical sense, has Wicca flavors to it or is pretty much Wicca without the Lord and Lady. I have several Wiccan friends and I like Wicca but it's not me. I have a really hard time articulating what I mean by this. Maybe I should give it more thought first. Thank you.

This is a common issue, especially for seekers.  TC has great reading/resource lists for non-Wicca-flavored paths; maybe you should check some of them out if you've not already?

I know it is a religion and I really like the bits I've read about in it but I haven't looked up much else since it's an established religion. I've also read some misleading things about how it's just magic. I like the darker aspect of it. I mean it's not "dark" as in gothic etc..but the connection to death and how it's perfectly normal. While that's in a lot of things I've felt way more that vibe from what I've read of it and I really like it. If you could point me in the direction or if someone could help me that would be cool. Thank you.

I can't, as I'm not a scholar of Vaudun but there are others on the boards that are much more qualified than I.
 

...I feel really stupid for posting this thread. :/

 
Don't!  The stupid thing would be keeping questions to yourself.

[Jujulinda]

That makes sense, and thank you for clarifying.  



This is a common issue, especially for seekers.  TC has great reading/resource lists for non-Wicca-flavored paths; maybe you should check some of them out if you've not already?



I can't, as I'm not a scholar of Vaudun but there are others on the boards that are much more qualified than I.
 


 
Don't!  The stupid thing would be keeping questions to yourself.

Thank you. And I guess "darker" would be the wrong word for it. I guess I was trying to think in other peoples terms but I mean I wouldn't be opposed to using my own blood or something like that in magic/ritual/offering. Something that always intrigued me about Maya and Aztec cultures was that they didn't shy away from ritual body modification. African cultures as well. That's something that also interests me. I've heard of writing spells in blood. I know it depends on what you're working for but it's something I know very little about and I am highly interested in. I know it's very taboo though and I just don't know where to start.

[veggiewolf]

...I wouldn't be opposed to using my own blood or something like that in magic/ritual/offering.

...I've heard of writing spells in blood. I know it depends on what you're working for but it's something I know very little about and I am highly interested in. I know it's very taboo though and I just don't know where to start.

 
The taboo against using blood depends on path and to whom you're speaking, honestly.  I happen to be of a mindset that blood is a useful component of spells and offerings and I've used it as such with good results.

We've had some good threads on the use of blood and/or sacrifice in the past that might make interesting reading for you:

Blood Magic - this thread was on the old boards
Blood Sacrifices - this thread was also on the old boards
Sacrifice
Raising the stakes

Happy reading...and don't forget that you can always start your own thread on the topic if you want.  

[Maps]

Thank you. And I guess "darker" would be the wrong word for it. I guess I was trying to think in other peoples terms but I mean I wouldn't be opposed to using my own blood or something like that in magic/ritual/offering. Something that always intrigued me about Maya and Aztec cultures was that they didn't shy away from ritual body modification. African cultures as well. That's something that also interests me. I've heard of writing spells in blood. I know it depends on what you're working for but it's something I know very little about and I am highly interested in. I know it's very taboo though and I just don't know where to start.

I use the pre-Christian Maya belief system as a framework for a lot of what I do, and I can definitely tell you that there was nothing dark or taboo about blood in Precolumbian America.

As for the rest of the obstacles you're facing in your path (if they're even obstacles to you at all), I can definitely identify with what you're going through. And IMO, anything is possible... just ask quantum physics.

But here, I got you this "Divine Communication" thread: http://www.ecauldron.com/forum/showthread.php?1761-Divine-Communication.

Hope that helps~

[Juniperberry]

I've found that no matter what I try I'm still an atheist in the ways of deities. Not that it's a bad thing and I know there are atheists on here who practice different things. I think there's some sort of "spiritual" energy in ourselves and the world and that's how magic is done. I also think that plant energies, rivers, forests etc..have their own energies that have been seen as fairies and the like. But I can't for the life of me put my head around deities. I find it an interesting concept. I feel like I can't believe in other spiritual forces if I can't believe in deities.

Maybe you need to look at deity differently. "God" usually implies some type of superior being, but in several beliefs (mine included) "god" is just a title. It's one of those land spirits/energy spirits that became culturally significant to a people. They aren't creators; they evolved naturally like all other life. They aren't isolated; there's countless spirits like there's countless people and plants etc. They aren't all-powerful, immortal or supernatural; they have strengths and concerns, they die, they are the consciousness/personality we sense in nature and causes.  

(Matter of fact, I was just thinking about this today. My neighbor has this freak tree in her yard, a magnificent giant of a mesquite. It's just one of those trees that creates legends...you can't help joking that it was planted on Indian burial ground or something. It has definite personality, and for sure would've been seen as a sacred tree, home of a landwight, a god, etc in the old days. )

I want to explore other things but I know I'm holding myself back because of my weird hang up but I feel like I would be betraying that culture or set of beliefs if they hold beliefs in deities. Does anybody else feel this way?

It's quite possible to be an atheist (insert pagan path). In some worldviews/beliefs it's not even the core part of the culture and more of an afterthought.

[Jujulinda]

Happy reading...and don't forget that you can always start your own thread on the topic if you want.  

Thank you for the links. I have a lot to mull over
 

I use the pre-Christian Maya belief system as a framework for a lot of what I do, and I can definitely tell you that there was nothing dark or taboo about blood in Precolumbian America.

As for the rest of the obstacles you're facing in your path (if they're even obstacles to you at all), I can definitely identify with what you're going through. And IMO, anything is possible... just ask quantum physics.

But here, I got you this "Divine Communication" thread: http://www.ecauldron.com/forum/showthread.php?1761-Divine-Communication.

Hope that helps~

Thank you. I always found their belief fascinating. It seems that blood/pain etc.. was readily accepted in most tribal cultures/beliefs systems as a completely normal thing. I just don't understand this aversion to the human body the West has. Or the distance we put between ourselves and death. I believe anything is possible. I just haven't seen it myself
 

Maybe you need to look at deity differently. "God" usually implies some type of superior being, but in several beliefs (mine included) "god" is just a title. It's one of those land spirits/energy spirits that became culturally significant to a people. They aren't creators; they evolved naturally like all other life. They aren't isolated; there's countless spirits like there's countless people and plants etc. They aren't all-powerful, immortal or supernatural; they have strengths and concerns, they die, they are the consciousness/personality we sense in nature and causes.  

(Matter of fact, I was just thinking about this today. My neighbor has this freak tree in her yard, a magnificent giant of a mesquite. It's just one of those trees that creates legends...you can't help joking that it was planted on Indian burial ground or something. It has definite personality, and for sure would've been seen as a sacred tree, home of a landwight, a god, etc in the old days. )

It's quite possible to be an atheist (insert pagan path). In some worldviews/beliefs it's not even the core part of the culture and more of an afterthought.

That tree sounds beautiful and as for what you said, it's very interesting. I may be looking at it wrong. It just seems that everywhere I go I get hounded with a supreme creator(s). I've never believed that even when I was a christian. I believe in regional spirits and that we have a soul of sorts. I believe in energy I guess you would say. If that makes sense.

I don't know much about Heathenism. I just know some of the gods names and their stories. But only vaguely. Do you worship them? Excuse my ignorance. I'm just wondering. If they're not creators and they evolved like everything else did why do you worship them/pay respects (if you do)? Is it because they know more then you do? And can accomplish more even though they're not all powerful?

I don't mean to offend anyone. I just want to have a good discussion about this. Thanks.

Also, does anyone have any suggestions for reading about looking at "god" a different way?

[spoOk]

Thank you for the links. I have a lot to mull over
 


Thank you. I always found their belief fascinating. It seems that blood/pain etc.. was readily accepted in most tribal cultures/beliefs systems as a completely normal thing. I just don't understand this aversion to the human body the West has. Or the distance we put between ourselves and death. I believe anything is possible. I just haven't seen it myself
 


That tree sounds beautiful and as for what you said, it's very interesting. I may be looking at it wrong. It just seems that everywhere I go I get hounded with a supreme creator(s). I've never believed that even when I was a christian. I believe in regional spirits and that we have a soul of sorts. I believe in energy I guess you would say. If that makes sense.

I don't know much about Heathenism. I just know some of the gods names and their stories. But only vaguely. Do you worship them? Excuse my ignorance. I'm just wondering. If they're not creators and they evolved like everything else did why do you worship them/pay respects (if you do)? Is it because they know more then you do? And can accomplish more even though they're not all powerful?

I don't mean to offend anyone. I just want to have a good discussion about this. Thanks.

Also, does anyone have any suggestions for reading about looking at "god" a different way?

 
theres plenty of folks who have the same beliefs you have and don't 'deal in deitys'
animism I think it is?? I could be getting my labels wrong.
and you can still do magick without deity.
also the magick side of voudou is hoodoo usually and this also you can do without getting into the religious element of voudou.
some traditional hoodoo though does make use of bible passages as words of power,but if it helps you....its all based on symbolism and hoodoo when it crossed the ocean to America made use of what was around it...so incorporated what seemed powerful and useful from missionaries etc. to add to its tool box.

[Juniperberry]

I don't know much about Heathenism. I just know some of the gods names and their stories. But only vaguely. Do you worship them? Excuse my ignorance. I'm just wondering. If they're not creators and they evolved like everything else did why do you worship them/pay respects (if you do)? Is it because they know more then you do? And can accomplish more even though they're not all powerful?

It's not so much worship as it is respect and honor. The relationship that man has with the gods (in heathenry) is meant to be mutual and not servile. We don't make it rain, the mechanics of the world do. But we need the rain (Thor) and so we offer gifts and when those gifts are accepted and returned, then we honor and respect that.

Because those types of wights ( the Norse gods) aren't localized (like the landwight), but have a broader realm of influence and responsibility, they've become cultural gods (which, again, is just a title of position and not a race/species/entity).

I'd say that they also know more, in some regards. But they aren't all-knowing. Odin has to wake the volva for answers, and he needs his ravens to bring him news. But people are able to accomplish this as well and that's why some were revered as gods in their own right. And that had nothing to do with celestial, spiritual, divine form.

They also aren't ever present. Thor leaves to the East, Odin goes off into exile, Nerthus comes and goes.

Humans can be gods, local wights can become gods, abstract ideas can become gods, and forces of nature can be gods. It just comes down to the reciprocal relationship you have with them and their influence on aspects of your life that you can't necessarily do on your own.

Also, does anyone have any suggestions for reading about looking at "god" a different way?

Every culture has their own approach to it. I wouldn't say there's one book on it for all, but just a matter of immersing yourself in the culture and religion of what you've committed to researching at the moment.

[Juniperberry]

It's not so much worship as it is respect and honor. The relationship that man has with the gods (in heathenry) is meant to be mutual and not servile. We don't make it rain, the mechanics of the world do. But we need the rain (Thor) and so we offer gifts and when those gifts are accepted and returned, then we honor and respect that.

Because those types of wights ( the Norse gods) aren't localized (like the landwight), but have a broader realm of influence and responsibility, they've become cultural gods (which, again, is just a title of position and not a race/species/entity).

I'd say that they also know more, in some regards. But they aren't all-knowing. Odin has to wake the volva for answers, and he needs his ravens to bring him news. But people are able to accomplish this as well and that's why some were revered as gods in their own right. And that had nothing to do with celestial, spiritual, divine form.

They also aren't ever present. Thor leaves to the East, Odin goes off into exile, Nerthus comes and goes.

Humans can be gods, local wights can become gods, abstract ideas can become gods, and forces of nature can be gods. It just comes down to the reciprocal relationship you have with them and their influence on aspects of your life that you can't necessarily do on your own.



Every culture has their own approach to it. I wouldn't say there's one book on it for all, but just a matter of immersing yourself in the culture and religion of what you've committed to researching at the moment.

 
ETA: Likewise, there can be non-beneficial wights. A "personality" of an area that just feels hostile, or where you get the sense that bad things happened, or where you feel threatened. These would be wights too, but instead of gods they become the trolls or jotuns.

 Like Grendel, from Beowulf.

[Jujulinda]

ETA: Likewise, there can be non-beneficial wights. A "personality" of an area that just feels hostile, or where you get the sense that bad things happened, or where you feel threatened. These would be wights too, but instead of gods they become the trolls or jotuns.

 Like Grendel, from Beowulf.

I've definitely felt that hostile feeling from certain places. And thank you for your explanation about Heathenry. That clears up a lot for me. For that culture anyways. I always want to know everything about everything and I can't do that...so, I get frustrated and feel really stupid. I'm one of those people that reads 10 books at once.

I have one billion and one questions that aren't fully formed yet. Did you all feel this lost when you started out? Because it's quite daunting. I want to dedicate myself to do something. Something simple that I do everyday to help people/animals/nature. Or maybe spiritual. Maybe I can build on that but I have no idea what to do. I've tried meditating everyday but I don't always have time. I feel really empty and lost.

[spoOk]

I've definitely felt that hostile feeling from certain places. And thank you for your explanation about Heathenry. That clears up a lot for me. For that culture anyways. I always want to know everything about everything and I can't do that...so, I get frustrated and feel really stupid. I'm one of those people that reads 10 books at once.

I have one billion and one questions that aren't fully formed yet. Did you all feel this lost when you started out? Because it's quite daunting. I want to dedicate myself to do something. Something simple that I do everyday to help people/animals/nature. Or maybe spiritual. Maybe I can build on that but I have no idea what to do. I've tried meditating everyday but I don't always have time. I feel really empty and lost.

 
I'm still kind of lost.
but then,I think it's because I expect more of a connection to the deitys I'm reaching out to and can't just pay tribute without getting any replies....I feel kinda selfish and impatient,but..."weh!" *flops*