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Author Topic: Isis and Ra associated with Yule?  (Read 4121 times)

KittyVel

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Isis and Ra associated with Yule?
« on: December 02, 2011, 07:52:44 pm »
I was doing some reading about Yule, (here http://www.wicca.com/celtic/akasha/yule.htm ) and saw a section in the reading that mentioned gods and goddesses associated with it.  In that section, Isis and Ra are mentioned.  What exactly is their association with Yule?  What kinds of offerings would be presented to them to honor them on this holiday?  I don't work with them, but I'd like to honor them somehow during Yule.
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Re: Isis and Ra associated with Yule?
« Reply #1 on: December 02, 2011, 08:04:21 pm »
Quote from: KittyVel;32759
I was doing some reading about Yule, (here http://www.wicca.com/celtic/akasha/yule.htm ) and saw a section in the reading that mentioned gods and goddesses associated with it.  In that section, Isis and Ra are mentioned.  What exactly is their association with Yule?  What kinds of offerings would be presented to them to honor them on this holiday?  I don't work with them, but I'd like to honor them somehow during Yule.


I don't do much with Egyptian deities, but Yule is not a universal celebration.  I have always believed it is a Western European based seasonal celebration.  But perhaps they are associated at whatever Egypt did for the winter solstice - assuming they did?
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Re: Isis and Ra associated with Yule?
« Reply #2 on: December 02, 2011, 08:07:34 pm »
Quote from: KittyVel;32759
What exactly is their association with Yule?

 
"I know!  If I make something up it will totally sound plausible!  People believe all kinds of made-up nonsense, that's what paganism is all about!"

(In other words, the ancient Egyptians did not celebrate Germanic tribal holidays.)
« Last Edit: December 02, 2011, 08:08:09 pm by Darkhawk »
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Melamphoros

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Re: Isis and Ra associated with Yule?
« Reply #3 on: December 02, 2011, 08:12:06 pm »
Quote from: KittyVel;32759
I was doing some reading about Yule, (here http://www.wicca.com/celtic/akasha/yule.htm ) and saw a section in the reading that mentioned gods and goddesses associated with it.  In that section, Isis and Ra are mentioned.  What exactly is their association with Yule?  What kinds of offerings would be presented to them to honor them on this holiday?  I don't work with them, but I'd like to honor them somehow during Yule.

 
To add to what Owl and Darkhawk said, Isis and Ra being associated with Yule sounds like something a single neo-Wiccan does.  Yule was a Northern European holiday so I doubt Kemetic/Hellenistic deities were associated with it.  Although I have to scratch my head in regards to those two deities.  In the Wiccan version of Yule, it would make more sense if it were Isis and Horus.


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KittyVel

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Re: Isis and Ra associated with Yule?
« Reply #4 on: December 02, 2011, 08:17:29 pm »
Quote from: Darkhawk;32761
In other words, the ancient Egyptians did not celebrate Germanic tribal holidays.

 
That's precisely what I was confused about.
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Nyktipolos

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Re: Isis and Ra associated with Yule?
« Reply #5 on: December 02, 2011, 08:33:19 pm »
Quote from: KittyVel;32759
I was doing some reading about Yule, (here http://www.wicca.com/celtic/akasha/yule.htm ) and saw a section in the reading that mentioned gods and goddesses associated with it.  In that section, Isis and Ra are mentioned.  What exactly is their association with Yule?  What kinds of offerings would be presented to them to honor them on this holiday?  I don't work with them, but I'd like to honor them somehow during Yule.

 
I would assume one could more than likely offer worship to Isis and Ra during the Yule holy days.

Doesn't mean, however, that They Themselves have any connection to Yule beyond what individual worshippers do with their holy days.

Otherwise, what Darkhawk said. :)
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Re: Isis and Ra associated with Yule?
« Reply #6 on: December 02, 2011, 09:21:14 pm »
Quote from: KittyVel;32766
That's precisely what I was confused about.

 
I suggest just honoring the whole "nature is great! Yay! Longest night of the year is KEWL!" kind of a thing for Yule.
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Re: Isis and Ra associated with Yule?
« Reply #7 on: December 03, 2011, 06:54:50 am »
Quote from: Melamphoros;32762
To add to what Owl and Darkhawk said, Isis and Ra being associated with Yule sounds like something a single neo-Wiccan does.  Yule was a Northern European holiday so I doubt Kemetic/Hellenistic deities were associated with it.  Although I have to scratch my head in regards to those two deities.  In the Wiccan version of Yule, it would make more sense if it were Isis and Horus.

 
Very definitely NeoWiccan, or vaguely-Wiccish neoPagan, as distinct from Wiccan (either BTW or Eclectic), methinks, because, yep, Isis and Horus would fit better with (one of) the Wiccan Yule paradigms - and, indeed, I've seen it applied that way, by EWs and by those BTW who adhered to a more universalist cosmology (i.e., the "known by many names in many cultures" position - it seems to be much less common among BTW now than it once was, the "very specific British tribal deities" position having become more predominant, but I know of a few BTW who still take that view).  (The other Wiccan Yule paradigm would, if Egypticized, probably focus on Set and either Osiris or Horus, but it'd stretch both the Wiccish paradigm and the Kemetic mythology all out of shape - I don't think I've encountered anyone silly enough to do it.)

I think the clue is in this bit from the end of the body of the article (before the bold-headed lists): "Deities of Yule are all Newborn Gods, Sun Gods, Mother Goddesses, and Triple Goddesses."  Basically, the pseudologic is, "Isis is a Mother Goddess!  And Ra is a Sun God!*  Yay, we have our gender-essentialist deity roles filled!"

(* This calls inevitably to mind the humorous chant, "Sun God!  Sun God!  He's a fun god!  Ra, Ra, Ra!")

I didn't bother to read the article more closely than it took to skim for that info; I rolled my eyes as soon as it told me, in the first three words, to pronounce Yule "EWE-elle" - that pronunciation?  AFAIK is a device used to make a few Christmas carols scan.  WTF is it with a certain sort of NeoWiccan that they have to make things Sound Fancy?

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Re: Isis and Ra associated with Yule?
« Reply #8 on: December 03, 2011, 07:42:29 am »
Quote from: KittyVel;32759
I was doing some reading about Yule, (here http://www.wicca.com/celtic/akasha/yule.htm ) and saw a section in the reading that mentioned gods and goddesses associated with it.  In that section, Isis and Ra are mentioned.  What exactly is their association with Yule?  What kinds of offerings would be presented to them to honor them on this holiday?  I don't work with them, but I'd like to honor them somehow during Yule.


I'll be honest I never really understood trying to fit the Egyptian gods / goddesses into Yule.  Thier whole society to include thier divinities was built about a three quarter calander.  That calander basically marking the nile flood period and planting, harvesting of crops then the bad times when the Nile receeded and left the land foul and marshy.

Then one had to factor in that their calander had to be "Fixed" every couple of years as there was drift in it.  So it becomes difficult to say this phase of their calander would be reflective of Yule.

One of the reason's I frequently see given to explain why Wicca (or any other Northern European inspired religious practice) failed to take hold in that part of the world or area's closer to the equator.

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Re: Isis and Ra associated with Yule?
« Reply #9 on: December 03, 2011, 07:52:29 am »
Quote from: Melamphoros;32762
To add to what Owl and Darkhawk said, Isis and Ra being associated with Yule sounds like something a single neo-Wiccan does.  Yule was a Northern European holiday so I doubt Kemetic/Hellenistic deities were associated with it.

This is certainly true of Hellenic deities. Yule simply was not known in ancient Greece.
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Re: Isis and Ra associated with Yule?
« Reply #10 on: December 03, 2011, 11:46:42 pm »
Quote from: RandallS;32836
This is certainly true of Hellenic deities. Yule simply was not known in ancient Greece.

 
WTH?? Why would anyone with half a brain try to fit a square peg (Egyptian deities) into a round hole (Northern European traditions)?

Wait.....I forgot, we're all fluffy-bunny types who make it up as we go along. :hdsk:

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stephyjh

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Isis and Ra associated with Yule?
« Reply #11 on: December 04, 2011, 03:57:11 am »
Quote from: victoreia;32929
WTH?? Why would anyone with half a brain try to fit a square peg (Egyptian deities) into a round hole (Northern European traditions)?

Wait.....I forgot, we're all fluffy-bunny types who make it up as we go along. :hdsk:

Guess this means I can actually have Yoda as Santa?

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Re: Isis and Ra associated with Yule?
« Reply #12 on: December 04, 2011, 02:41:49 pm »
Quote from: KittyVel;32759


 
Personally I'd mistrust every page that offers comfortable 'mix-and-match' lists. ;)
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Re: Isis and Ra associated with Yule?
« Reply #13 on: December 04, 2011, 03:29:01 pm »
Quote from: KittyVel;32759
I was doing some reading about Yule, (here http://www.wicca.com/celtic/akasha/yule.htm ) and saw a section in the reading that mentioned gods and goddesses associated with it.  In that section, Isis and Ra are mentioned.  What exactly is their association with Yule?  What kinds of offerings would be presented to them to honor them on this holiday?  I don't work with them, but I'd like to honor them somehow during Yule.

 
All of this is opinion from a newbie pagan, so take it with a big grain of salt and of course tell me if something I say is way off the mark.

I understand that some pantheons just Do Not Fit with certain holidays, but I don't see any problems with making it fit so long as you're respectful, don't call what you're doing recon, and try to approach the holiday in the context of the culture/pantheon you follow.

To run with the Yule-with-Kemetic-deities example, you could repurpose the holiday so that it fits with the Kemetic paradigm a little more closely. Frankly, I don't know how you'd do it with Yule, though. Other holidays, like Thanksgiving, are a little more universal, so it's easier to make modifications. Heck, even Easter is easier to "use" than Yule!

And of course, if you change things to fit, what you're celebrating is no longer Yule, and what you're doing is certainly not (recon) Kemeticism/whatever your religion is. (And at this point, a question must be raised: why go through with it, then?)

I also don't understand how Ra would fit in with Yule, let alone Aset. Ra's rebirth is daily, and I thought the rebirth referred to in the context of Yule was yearly?

I don't think the gods are overly concerned with our holidays so long as we don't abandon something we were supposed to do for them. I mean, don't neglect offerings or prayers, or whatever else you're obligated to do.

But yeah, mix-n-match is bad, mmm'kay? :ashamed:
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Re: Isis and Ra associated with Yule?
« Reply #14 on: December 04, 2011, 08:33:05 pm »
Quote from: monsnoleedra;32835
I'll be honest I never really understood trying to fit the Egyptian gods / goddesses into Yule.  Thier whole society to include thier divinities was built about a three quarter calander.  That calander basically marking the nile flood period and planting, harvesting of crops then the bad times when the Nile receeded and left the land foul and marshy.

 
I mean, for that matter, as far south as Egypt is--that is, as close to the Equator--the seasons are just plain different than they are way up north, and the notion that they'd mark the same evenly-spaced solar milestones with the same assumptions is just plain silly.  It's like Australians putting spray snow on things at Christmas even though it's a couple days after midsummer there.  Yule is a holiday that's not just based in Germanic-and-to-some-degree-Celtic culture, it's based on locality.  Celebrating a holiday that's built around environmental factors (like longer nights, increased cold, increased need to stay indoors with family and find ways to keep warm, reliance on food stores harvested a month or three before that have to be rationed out to make it until spring) just plum doesn't work when mashed up with cultures whose local environments are completely different, whose seasons function differently and at different times, etc.

It's like trying to apply the Chinese directional system to Europe (and vice versa), where the sea and the mountains are in the wrong directions, or a Southeast Asian monsoon-based seasonal system to Arizona.
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