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Author Topic: i fear hell  (Read 6287 times)

SunflowerP

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Re: i fear hell
« Reply #30 on: December 29, 2016, 01:11:35 am »
Quote from: FurvaWolf;200535


 
A Reminder:
Hi, FurvaWolf,

We don't mind long posts here, but to avoid having a hard-to-read  wall-o'-text, hitting "enter" twice every few lines adds some white  space and makes it easier to follow - I've edited yours to add those  breaks, but it's a really good habit to get into yourself.

They don't have to be the "proper" place for paragraph breaks (we're  interested in readability more than technicalities), or a complete  change of thought - some thoughts take a lot of lines and need to be  broken up into sub-thoughts - as long as they're there.

This isn't a formal warning, just a reminder.  No  reply is necessary,  but if you have questions or need clarification,  please feel free to  contact a member of staff privately.

Thanks!
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SunflowerP

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Re: i fear hell
« Reply #31 on: December 29, 2016, 05:26:54 am »
Quote from: FurvaWolf;200535
This is what kind of Opened my eyes as a Christian Convert to Paganism. I thought it could be fairly useful to your struggle currently. I struggled with the same thing for a while, but as I studied Paganism more and Christianity less, I felt as if my eyes had been opened.


I'm moving this part of what I'm quoting from you up to the top, because I want to start off by noting that I agree with you on the general principle, and think it's good advice.

The specifics you give about it, though, are in several respects either false or baffling:

Quote from: FurvaWolf;200535
The Pagan view of the universe is one of complementary opposites...


There is no singular 'pagan view of the universe'. 'Paganism' is not a religion, but an umbrella term covering many different religions, some related to each other and some not, and often differing widely in their cosmologies. Often, there is no singular cosmology even within just one of those pagan religions, since many pagan religions are orthopraxic (based on shared practices) rather than orthodoctrinal (based on shared belief).

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... Shakta/Shakti...


I'm wondering here if you meant 'Shiva/Shakti'? Since a Shakta is a follower of Shaktism, unless you specifically meant to indicate 'devotee/deity' as an instance of 'complementary opposites', it doesn't seem to make sense here.

I'll note, too, that most adherents of the Vedic traditions - Hinduism etc - do not self-identify as pagan, and often strongly reject the label because it has been applied pejoratively to their religions to suggest they are 'more primitive' than Christianity. Including a Vedic concept as an instance of 'pagan view of the universe' either imposes the label on those who reject it, or erases their ownership of the concept in favor of those people in the neoPagan movement who have appropriated it for their own use. (A similar issue applies with 'yin/yang'.)

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The major patriarchal religions have a duality of good and evil, God and Satan. The concept of Satan has been around for thousands of years, not only in the Hebrew tradition.


The Hebrew concept of Ha-satan - 'the accuser' or 'the adversary' - is not as the 'evil' component of a good/evil duality; it can refer to a human opponent, or can be the title of an agent of God: God's prosecuting attorney, so to speak.

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The Babylonians, Chaldeans, and Persians believed in a dualism between the forces of darkness and light.


I've not encountered anything about good/evil dualism as a major tenet in religions of ancient Mesopotamia and Persia prior to the emergence of Zoroastrianism (c.600 BCE); can you provide some reliable sources on that?

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... the Devil, a term meaning 'little God'.


No, it doesn't. I believe I've seen some pagan books cite a false etymology connecting 'devil' directly to Sanskrit 'deva/devi'; that could be where you were led astray.

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... it was slowly assumed that God did only the good things and the Devil/Satan all the bad things.


This is not mainstream Christian doctrine today, nor as far as I know has it ever been official doctrine in the bulk of Christianity.

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The Devil was officially adopted by the Christian church in 447 and he was pronounced immortal in 547.


Sources, please.

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Likewise the Satanists are, in a sense followers of the Judaic/Christian belief system because they worship an anti-god figure which belongs to that system.*


I see you have an asterisk there, which suggests you had a footnote you were going to add to your post but forgot about when you were finished the rest (that's okay; I do that all the time!) - were you going to note exceptions to that? Because there definitely are exceptions - philosophical Satanists (such as LaVeyan Satanists) are the most obvious example, but many theistic Satanists don't use the term to refer to the anti-god figure of the Christian (not Judaic, see above) system. (How they do use it varies quite a bit, and in many cases one might well argue with their choice of the word 'Satanist' to describe themselves - but they're not worshipping that figure.)

Sunflower
I'm the AntiFa genderqueer commie eclectic wiccan Mod your alt-right bros warned you about.
I do so have a life; I just live part of it online!
“Selfishness is not living as one wishes to live, it is asking others to live as one wishes to live.” - Oscar Wilde
"Nobody's good at anything until they practice." - Brina (Yewberry)
My much-neglected blog "If You Ain't Makin' Waves, You Ain't Kickin' Hard Enough"

Obsidia

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Re: i fear hell
« Reply #32 on: January 01, 2017, 11:57:12 am »
Quote from: wormgiy;199470
I have been into the occult most of my life and I love it but my Christian roots keep pulling at me and I fear God will cast me into hell.I believe in and love God but I am truly afraid.I have tried finding other beliefes to justify my action but I keep getting pulled back.   pls help

 
The earth is hell.

ehbowen

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Re: i fear hell
« Reply #33 on: January 01, 2017, 03:39:17 pm »
Quote from: Obsidia;200742
The earth is hell.
Not saying I 100% agree with this, but it's not an uncommon saying in my faith background: "This world is as close to Hell as some people will ever get, and as close to Heaven as others will ever get."

 I have been known to say to my boss at work: "I finally figured it out: I actually died twenty years ago, this is Hell...and you are the devil!" Yes, I'm joking. Mostly....

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Sefiru

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Re: i fear hell
« Reply #34 on: January 01, 2017, 05:39:04 pm »
Quote from: Obsidia;200742
The earth is hell.

 
Huh. My experience of it has been considerably different.

FWIW, I don't believe in Hell per se.

Obsidia

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Re: i fear hell
« Reply #35 on: January 02, 2017, 09:42:48 am »
Quote from: Sefiru;200761
Huh. My experience of it has been considerably different.

FWIW, I don't believe in Hell per se.

 
Innocent people getting bombed. People killed by mass murderers. Poverty. Disease.

ehbowen

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Re: i fear hell
« Reply #36 on: January 02, 2017, 10:09:53 am »
Quote from: Obsidia;200789
Innocent people getting bombed. People killed by mass murderers. Poverty. Disease.


And on the flip side I would cite Grand Teton National Park. Sydney Harbour and the Blue Mountains. My parents' 50th wedding anniversary. Blue Bell ice cream.

I had to read Machiavelli for a college course. I thought at the time that in order to make a real start on Hell you didn't need fire and brimstone; you just needed to lock Machiavelli and those who thought like him in a large room with no way out.
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Where's the KABOOM? There was supposed to have been an Earth-shattering KABOOM!
Computers are like air conditioning. They become useless when you open Windows—Linus Torvalds.

Sefiru

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Re: i fear hell
« Reply #37 on: January 02, 2017, 03:06:16 pm »
Quote from: ehbowen;200790

I had to read Machiavelli for a college course. I thought at the time that in order to make a real start on Hell you didn't need fire and brimstone; you just needed to lock Machiavelli and those who thought like him in a large room with no way out.


I've heard some commentators say that all of The Prince was meant to be sarcastic and Machiavelli himself was quite liberal. That said, those that take it as good advice would make a good start on Hell. Likewise, Atlas Shrugged.

Sefiru

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Re: i fear hell
« Reply #38 on: January 02, 2017, 03:11:39 pm »
Quote from: Obsidia;200789
Innocent people getting bombed. People killed by mass murderers. Poverty. Disease.

 
Apricots, the Swiss Alps, fresh snow, Amazon (both the forest and the business), Doctors Without Borders, the smell after rain ...

ehbowen

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Re: i fear hell
« Reply #39 on: January 02, 2017, 03:28:47 pm »
Quote from: Sefiru;200804
...those that take it as good advice would make a good start on Hell. Likewise, Atlas Shrugged.


I actually agree with a lot of the essential core of Ayn Rand's philosophy. But the details, the details.... Let's just say it needs to be run through a good refinery several times.
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Where's the KABOOM? There was supposed to have been an Earth-shattering KABOOM!
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Re: i fear hell
« Reply #40 on: January 02, 2017, 05:35:50 pm »
Quote from: ehbowen;200808
I actually agree with a lot of the essential core of Ayn Rand's philosophy. But the details, the details.... Let's just say it needs to be run through a good refinery several times.

 
And not packaged up in turgid prose.
Oh, is it time again to say "Fuck Trump gently in the ear with a swarm of pissed-off hornets?"?

Okay. Fuck Trump gently in the ear with a swarm of pissed-off hornets.

ehbowen

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Re: i fear hell
« Reply #41 on: January 02, 2017, 05:40:01 pm »
Quote from: MadZealot;200818
And not packaged up in turgid prose.

I managed to read most of Atlas Shrugged, but that hundred-page screed which was supposed to be a radio broadcast...I haven't done more than scratch the surface of it. It would make a seventeenth-century Congregationalist pastor blush....

Edit To Add: I know Charles Dickens got paid by the word, and it shows. Did Ayn Rand?

(At least Dickens's prose is readable!)
« Last Edit: January 02, 2017, 05:41:31 pm by ehbowen »
--------Eric H. Bowen
Where's the KABOOM? There was supposed to have been an Earth-shattering KABOOM!
Computers are like air conditioning. They become useless when you open Windows—Linus Torvalds.

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