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Author Topic: i fear hell  (Read 5734 times)

wormgiy

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i fear hell
« on: November 28, 2016, 04:42:17 am »
I have been into the occult most of my life and I love it but my Christian roots keep pulling at me and I fear God will cast me into hell.I believe in and love God but I am truly afraid.I have tried finding other beliefes to justify my action but I keep getting pulled back.   pls help

Dynes Hysbys

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Re: i fear hell
« Reply #1 on: November 28, 2016, 06:37:14 am »
Quote from: wormgiy;199470
I have been into the occult most of my life and I love it but my Christian roots keep pulling at me and I fear God will cast me into hell.I believe in and love God but I am truly afraid.I have tried finding other beliefs to justify my action but I keep getting pulled back.   pls help


Have you studied the birth of the early Christian church? It makes fascinating reading and underlines just how arbitrary the material in the Bible is. It's a torrid tale of infighting, murder and compromise.. For example Revelations only just squeaked in and the chairman of one of the councils (I think the Nicene but don't have the references here to check at the moment) involved in putting together the bible and agreeing the doctrine was appointed by Constantine  because he had the management skills to control the warring bishops.  That he was actually pagan himself didn't matter....

I'm away from my books at the moment to give you the exact references  but Charles Freeman has written some very readable books on the subject  "AD:381" and "The Closing of the Western Mind"

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Re: i fear hell
« Reply #2 on: November 28, 2016, 12:43:28 pm »
Quote from: wormgiy;199470
I have been into the occult most of my life and I love it but my Christian roots keep pulling at me and I fear God will cast me into hell.I believe in and love God but I am truly afraid.I have tried finding other beliefes to justify my action but I keep getting pulled back.   pls help

 
Coincidentally, my recent interfaith theology reading included something that might be helpful for you: preterism (that's part 6 of an eight-part series; I chose the one that seemed to most directly connect to your issue - but I'd recommend checking them all out).

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Number 6

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Re: i fear hell
« Reply #3 on: November 28, 2016, 01:09:25 pm »
Quote from: wormgiy;199470
I fear God will cast me into hell.

You're already in Hell, buddy. Shedding that fear you have is dependent upon your realizing that. It doesn't get any worse than being made to feel as though everything you're naturally drawn to do is abhorrent in the eyes of the strongest thing in the Universe, and punishable by endless torture. It's an irrational fear. As a result, ideas, concepts, and more frameworks play a smaller role than you think. General life wisdom and self-acceptance is the cure. Time, in other words.

Just my two cents. Good luck freeing yourself. I know how scary it is.
« Last Edit: November 28, 2016, 01:10:53 pm by Number 6 »

MadZealot

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Re: i fear hell
« Reply #4 on: November 30, 2016, 06:18:26 am »
Quote from: wormgiy;199470
my Christian roots keep pulling at me

Quote
I fear God will cast me into hell.  

Quote
I believe in and love God but I am truly afraid.


I'm gonna be an asshole for just long enough to ask a pertinent question:  
If the "occult" is really so troubling to you, then why mess with it?

Quote
I have tried finding other beliefes to justify my action but I keep getting pulled back.


Sounds to me like you're trying to reconcile two belief systems which seem at odds with each other.  I see you describe yourself as Christian Witch, Baptist, and occultist.  One of these is not like the other.  Now, Christian Witchery actually exists, in varying forms, in different cultures. "Christian occultism", while a bit of an umbrella term, also has a long, storied history.  

But I don't think you'll find many witches or occultists who were also Baptists.  If you want to merge two worlds, so to speak, and it can be done, you might want, or even need, to switch denominations.  A Baptist faith... might not be not conducive to the practice of oogie-boogie things.

One possibility: you might opt to leave Christianity for a time-- study abroad a bit, as it were-- until you can come back and look at it with new eyes.  

Or you could avoid practicing the oogie-boogie stuff altogether.  For instance, you might just read about various occult and witchy stuffs without ever actually doing them.
That way you can satisfy your academic curiosity without putting yourself at any kind of risk.  
If you don't dabble in the scary, then you won't have reason to be scared.

I dunno.  I don't know you very well, so I don't know which advice best suits your situation.  So I figured I'd throw out a few ideas and see which of em sticks.  I hope some of this helps.  Here if you have questions.
« Last Edit: November 30, 2016, 06:22:51 am by MadZealot »
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EclecticWheel

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Re: i fear hell
« Reply #5 on: November 30, 2016, 09:57:39 am »
Quote from: Dynes Hysbys;199472
Have you studied the birth of the early Christian church? It makes fascinating reading and underlines just how arbitrary the material in the Bible is. It's a torrid tale of infighting, murder and compromise.. For example Revelations only just squeaked in and the chairman of one of the councils (I think the Nicene but don't have the references here to check at the moment) involved in putting together the bible and agreeing the doctrine was appointed by Constantine  because he had the management skills to control the warring bishops.  That he was actually pagan himself didn't matter....

I'm away from my books at the moment to give you the exact references  but Charles Freeman has written some very readable books on the subject  "AD:381" and "The Closing of the Western Mind"

 
I second this, and I'd add exploring the intertextual nature of the Bible and how it came to exist in its current forms.  Did you know for instance that parts of it show evidence of early Jewish belief in plural gods?  And though I do not recommend relying on this as your "get out of hell free" card you may wish to explore the history of Universalism in the church, the belief that all will be saved.

I am sorry you feel this way, but as mentioned, this is irrational.  You should explore what you're looking for in both Christianity and occultism, and as mentioned in the thread, you likely need to change denominations or at least churches since that is likely the source of fear - I would advise the latter even if you gave up occultism.  There is no sense in clinging to that nonsensical fear regardless of what you do.
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MeadowRae

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Re: i fear hell
« Reply #6 on: November 30, 2016, 10:18:59 am »
Quote from: wormgiy;199470
I have been into the occult most of my life and I love it but my Christian roots keep pulling at me and I fear God will cast me into hell.I believe in and love God but I am truly afraid.I have tried finding other beliefes to justify my action but I keep getting pulled back.   pls help

 
I grew up in a Southern Baptist church. It took me a long, long time to be okay with any form of Christianity after leaving the church. I think, like many of the posters before have said, you're going to have to choose, or at least change how you practice Christianity.  I know it's not easy. The church has used fear to keep you in pews. Fear, especially when used on people from a young age, is powerful. You may even consider seeing a therapist, if possible. I consider what I went through to be Spiritual abuse, and it sounds like you may have went through the same. It is possible to love God and others without fear. In fact, it is in the Bible several times.

One of my favorite verses is in 1 John; "But there is no fear in love, for perfect love casts out all fear."

Good luck on your journey.
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Jainarayan

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Re: i fear hell
« Reply #7 on: November 30, 2016, 10:58:31 am »
Quote from: wormgiy;199470
I have been into the occult most of my life and I love it but my Christian roots keep pulling at me and I fear God will cast me into hell.I believe in and love God but I am truly afraid.I have tried finding other beliefes to justify my action but I keep getting pulled back.   pls help

 
I am not Christian anymore, I am Hindu, though I was baptized and raised Roman Catholic. Not for a minute do I believe in the thrown-into-the-lake-of-fire business.  I don't disbelieve in the God of the Bible, but to me he is just another deity - a deva, a demi-god - in a pantheon of thousands of deities humans worship. I personally do not believe he is powerful enough to throw anyone anywhere (I do not believe in the Christian concept of Hell). In my beliefs Vishnu, Shiva and Devi (Goddess) are manifestations of the Supreme God; they have the chops to kick any other deity's ass.

Aside from that, here's a paraphrased story from Paramahansa Yogananda, a much loved Hindu saint:

An old man was complaining about his "wayward" son (I'm not going to break into the Kansas song :p). The old man said his son drank, smoked, was promiscuous, committing the oldest sins in the newest ways. He said his son was going to be punished by God and sent to Hell for eternity for his "sins".

The saint asked the old man if he loved his son. The old man said yes of course. The saint said that the old man should tie his son up up and throw him into a furnace. The old man said "whoever heard of a father throwing his own son into an oven!?"

Yogananda said "Don't you understand what I've just said to you? You said God wants to throw us all into hell.  But He is our true Father!  You, a mere human being, were horrified at the thought of throwing your own son into an oven despite all the trouble he's given you.  Can you seriously believe that God who is Perfection Itself, has less love for you than you have for your own son?" The old man said "I see now, you are right."  He said to the saint "thank you! You've cured me of a serious error. God is Love.  He can't wish our destruction!".

We could say that even Jesus spoke of being cast into the fires of Hell, but in my opinion - and it's only my opinion - it was interpolated later as a fear and control tactic.
śivāya vishnu rūpaya śivaḥ rūpaya vishnave
śivasya hridayam viṣṇur viṣṇoscha hridayam śivaḥ
Vishnu's appearance is Shiva; Shiva's appearance is Vishnu
Vishnu is the heart of Shiva; Shiva is the heart of Vishnu - Skandopanishad
 

ehbowen

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Re: i fear hell
« Reply #8 on: November 30, 2016, 02:57:34 pm »
Quote from: wormgiy;199470
I have been into the occult most of my life and I love it but my Christian roots keep pulling at me and I fear God will cast me into hell.I believe in and love God but I am truly afraid.I have tried finding other beliefes to justify my action but I keep getting pulled back.   pls help
If you do see Hell, the largest portion of the credit - - other than that of your own freely chosen actions, of course - - will go to Satan. He is the one who accuses and prosecutes, not God...with perhaps rare exceptions. God simply judges righteously, and if we are in fact guilty, He finds accordingly.

The two parties have diametrically opposed goals. Satan is trying to "pull a Clinton," to get off scot-free, regardless of how many Bob Livingstones he has to destroy in order to do so. "God, surely you wouldn't send All Those People to Hell?" If he can get God to compromise His justice, in even one final case, he wins. God, OTOH, is not willing that any should perish but that all should come to repentance--and He has been willing to sacrifice anything, even that which is most dear to Him, to make that possible.

Hell is real. It is out there; that's why Jesus warned us about it. I'm convinced that God's eventual goal is in fact universalism, for everyone - - men, angels, demons, animals, flowers...even rocks. But the deal is not yet closed, if it were then Earth and Heaven would be one and getting a specific answer from God would be no more difficult than picking up the phone. In the interim God is making no promises which He may ultimately be unable to deliver on. But in ... well, let's just see what develops.

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Darkhawk

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Re: i fear hell
« Reply #9 on: November 30, 2016, 03:10:51 pm »
Quote from: Jainarayan;199548
We could say that even Jesus spoke of being cast into the fires of Hell, but in my opinion - and it's only my opinion - it was interpolated later as a fear and control tactic.

 
Actually, I think the problem is more that modern Christians have no clue what the role of the prophet was and is in Jewish culture.

A prophet is not a soothsayer prognosticating a distant future; a prophet is someone who says, "If you don't clean up your act, let me tell you what's going to go down."  Biblical prophecy is about the present - not the now-present, the present of the time of the prophet.  Biblical prophecy is "If this goes on..."

I highly recommend the link on preterism that Sunf posted above.  Because Jesus - as a prophet in the Biblical tradition - looked at the might of the Roman Empire and said, "Guys?  If you keep fucking with the Romans like that you are going to be sorry.  Here are some better suggestions on how to fuck with the Romans in ways that won't get the Temple destroyed and a lot of people killed.  ...fuck, you people don't listen.  There will be wailing and gnashing of teeth, and there ain't nothing I can do to stop it if you don't listen."

I quote http://www.chabad.org/library/article_cdo/aid/84902/jewish/What-is-Prophecy.htm :
"The purpose of prophecy is to make course corrections in the direction of Jewish society, or in the direction of society at large. Sometimes a prophet comes to foretell the future, when G‑d deems it necessary that we should know what's to come in order to encourage us in our mission in life. Other times it's to remind us that we're slacking off on what He expects from us, and warn us of the dire consequences this will bring if we don't get our act together."

Also:
"There were thousands of prophets in Jewish history (we also know of at least one non-Jewish prophet, Balaam). The overwhelming majority of them, however, conveyed messages that were specific to the time and circumstances they were sent to address. Their prophecies, therefore, were not recorded for posterity, and even their names are unknown to us. Many of these prophets were ordinary citizens -- students, craftsmen, farmers -- who, by virtue of their righteousness and heightened sensitivity to spirituality, were selected by G‑d to receive a prophecy."


And they didn't listen to him.  And it's funny, the Temple got destroyed and a lot of people were killed.  Because Rome didn't fuck around with the possibility of uprisings in conquered territories.

The whole concept of Hell?  Yeah, that's a more modern fear and control tactic.  But that doesn't mean he didn't say the stuff that he was reported to say - just that in its cultural context and its time it didn't mean the stuff people made up later.
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MadZealot

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Re: i fear hell
« Reply #10 on: November 30, 2016, 03:49:51 pm »
Quote from: Darkhawk;199552

"Guys?  If you keep fucking with the Romans like that you are going to be sorry.  Here are some better suggestions on how to fuck with the Romans in ways that won't get the Temple destroyed and a lot of people killed.  ...fuck, you people don't listen.  There will be wailing and gnashing of teeth, and there ain't nothing I can do to stop it if you don't listen."


I, too, believe Jesus dropped the F bomb.  Frequently and to full effect.
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ehbowen

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Re: i fear hell
« Reply #11 on: November 30, 2016, 06:33:59 pm »
Quote from: Darkhawk;199552
A prophet is not a soothsayer prognosticating a distant future; a prophet is someone who says, "If you don't clean up your act, let me tell you what's going to go down."  Biblical prophecy is about the present - not the now-present, the present of the time of the prophet.  Biblical prophecy is "If this goes on..."

I am not saying that you are incorrect, but I do believe that you are incomplete. The real purpose of prophecy, in my mind, is to reveal the Heart of God. That heart does in fact manifest as concern for the present course of individuals and their societies, and much prophecy thus is concerned with immediate needs...as you correctly note. Other, longer-term prophecy reveals what God is prepared to do, if necessary. The Revelation is not a "script", as many think, but a glimpse of the lengths to which God is prepared to go, if necessary, to establish justice and judge evil. Scattered throughout the Revelation you find the phrase, "And men did not repent...." But elsewhere in the Old Testament God makes it abundantly clear that prophecies of judgment are always conditional...and that He is always looking for an intercessor. So, then, if men do in fact repent, then God has every reason to relent of His promised judgment. Revelation shows what God is prepared to do if necessary...but I believe that He fervently hopes that it will not be.

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Gaudior

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Re: i fear hell
« Reply #12 on: December 04, 2016, 06:45:39 pm »
Quote from: Darkhawk;199552



 "Guys?  If you keep fucking with the Romans like that you are going to be sorry.  Here are some better suggestions on how to fuck with the Romans in ways that won't get the Temple destroyed and a lot of people killed.  ...fuck, you people don't listen.  There will be wailing and gnashing of teeth, and there ain't nothing I can do to stop it if you don't listen."



xD That's probably closer to the real Jesus (throwing things, chasing people with whips) then the watered down one we see today.

Jainarayan

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Re: i fear hell
« Reply #13 on: December 05, 2016, 10:29:10 am »
Quote from: Darkhawk;199552
Actually, I think the problem is more that modern Christians have no clue what the role of the prophet was and is in Jewish culture. ...


Oh yes absolutely, that too.

Great add'l info. :)
śivāya vishnu rūpaya śivaḥ rūpaya vishnave
śivasya hridayam viṣṇur viṣṇoscha hridayam śivaḥ
Vishnu's appearance is Shiva; Shiva's appearance is Vishnu
Vishnu is the heart of Shiva; Shiva is the heart of Vishnu - Skandopanishad
 

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Re: i fear hell
« Reply #14 on: December 05, 2016, 11:43:09 am »
Quote from: Gaudior;199757
xD That's probably closer to the real Jesus (throwing things, chasing people with whips) then the watered down one we see today.

 
It's pretty much direct extrapolation!

The 'turn the other cheek', 'carry the extra mile', things?  Explicitly fucking with the Romans, civil disobedience behaviours.  The 'if someone sues you for your shirt, give him your coat as well'?  That too, not necessarily targeting Romans.  Probably some other stuff too, that's just what I remember off top of head.

We don't have the social context for this stuff anymore unless we're giant nerds who study it, so it comes across very differently to us nowadays.
as the water grinds the stone
we rise and fall
as our ashes turn to dust
we shine like stars    - Covenant, "Bullet"

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