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Author Topic: Goddess Spirituality: Good times and bad times rituals  (Read 618 times)

rous54

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Good times and bad times rituals
« on: May 19, 2019, 10:11:39 am »
Hi everyone,

It's been a while.  Hope you are doing well.  I've mentioned this before, I really like this community at eCauldron.

In the past when something has gone well in my life I have praised Goddess and I have done something good to celebrate and thank her for the good that has happened to me.  For instance when I became better from a past illness I felt called to do volunteer work and spent a lot of time doing it and it was really a life changing experience.

But I was wondering what would a person do when something bad happens?  It is so frustrating when things are going well then something bad happens and messes everything up.  It feels hypocritical to praise Goddess when something good happens but do nothing when something bad happens?  What would one do?  I am thinking of the ritual of sacrificing an animal (or a human in some old societies), but that is not an option.  I then thought that maybe that is why it is called an altar to sacrifice something.  How does one channel the negative energy when something bad happens and feels that Goddess is responsible for it?

Thanks.

Brightest blessings,

Adonia
« Last Edit: May 20, 2019, 09:16:19 pm by SunflowerP »

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Re: Good times and bad times rituals
« Reply #1 on: May 19, 2019, 03:17:26 pm »
How does one channel the negative energy when something bad happens and feels that Goddess is responsible for it?

There's a couple of places here I think you may be getting tangled.

First, ancient religions had a bunch of elements that we don't have. You're currently identifying your practice as Wiccan, and for example, in that, the Gods are neither all-powerful, nor are they usually depicted as controlling all elements of the world. So, logically speaking, thanking them for their help is great, but assuming they have anything to do with the bad things in life - that happen to all of us, really - doesn't make a ton of sense.

That said, there is a historical precedent for this. Many cultures made offerings of thanks (yay, this thing went well, this thing got better, my life is doing better, thank you), but it was also common to make offerings of propriation ("Um, hi, I'm sorry if I messed up, here is a nice thing you like, maybe you won't be so upset with me?")

The reality is that for most humans, the things we do - good and bad - are probably not going to upset the Gods hugely. The things that are most likely to get us in trouble with a particular deity are:
  • Directly and specifically doing something that offends them in a situation or space devoted to them
  • Breaking a specific direct promise we have made to them, especially if the way we break it is cruel, selfish, or otherwise nasty
  • Doing something that goes against their direct interests (but realistically, you're likely to know if you're getting into that situation by being part of something huge like that)

Mythology has tons of stories about these kinds of issues. But you'll notice they mostly involve specific actions, and in particular specific insulting or destructive actions toward things those deities care about a lot. If you're just going along doing your thing, you're not very likely to have that happen accidentally.

Similarly, breaking a promise to a deity is not great, but most deities do, in my experience, understand if there's a reason you couldn't do the thing you promised. (You said you'd make an offering at such a time, but at that time, you were ill, or had other commitments that you couldn't break, or needed to be at work so you could continue to function smoothly.) In those cases, you want to make it up, but it's not the kind of thing where most deities will actively make your life miserable until you do.
Usually that happens if you make a promise, get a thing, and then ignore your commitment to it (just don't do what you said), or if you're misrepresenting what happened to other people (i.e. saying it was all your Awesome Magical Power that made it happen, when in reality it got a big lift from a particular deity.) Again, all stuff you have choices about.

If it's a situation where you think you've given offense, then you can spend some time thinking about when and how that might have been, suggest an option in ritual, see what kinds of response you get to that (energetic shifts, experience in meditation, divination, or dreams for a couple of days after, etc.) and then if you feel it's a good way to go, go do the thing.

Sometimes the solution is pretty easy: You said you'd do a thing. You didn't do the thing. The solution is to go and do the thing.

Sometimes it's a bit more complex, because you also damaged the relationship somehow, or caused offense. In this case, effective propriation usually involves some degree of ritual (prayers, ritual offerings) to help improve the relationship (paying attention to the deity, offering things they like) but usually also an element of 'fixing the thing you did wrong'.

If you were supposed to make offerings to a deity as a thank you, and didn't and you feel like this is a bigger thing to fix, go make those offerings. Make them a few more times than you'd offered.  Make the offerings something that is a stretch for you.

For example, if you've decided you're going to donate a small sum of money to a cause a deity likes (along with your ritual offerings of things like incense or wine or water or candles or whatever), then figure out an amount of money that means you'll have to limit something else you enjoy and wanted to do, temporarily. (Don't give your rent money, or the money you need for food to keep you healthy - but maybe the amount of money you'd spend on treats that week or month.) If you're going to do an action (volunteering, helping, etc.) do something that's more of a stretch for you in terms of time - again, not all your free time for months, but if you feel a need for more significant propriation, something that will be a bigger commitment for you.

The key here is proportion: how would you feel if a friend or family member or co-worker did the thing? What would feel proportionate as a way to fix that? A minor issue isn't a good call to completely uproot your life to fix it - but you probably want to do something that makes it clear you're taking the issue seriously, not blowing it off. Divination and meditation can both help here if you're not sure.
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Re: Good times and bad times rituals
« Reply #2 on: May 19, 2019, 03:24:14 pm »


There's a couple of places here I think you may be getting tangled.

First, ancient religions had a bunch of elements that we don't have. You're currently identifying your practice as Wiccan, and for example, in that, the Gods are neither all-powerful, nor are they usually depicted as controlling all elements of the world. So, logically speaking, thanking them for their help is great, but assuming they have anything to do with the bad things in life - that happen to all of us, really - doesn't make a ton of sense.

I understand Jenett. However I do find myself sometimes getting angry at Goddess for just changing the direction of things. I give a lot of thanks when things go well but I find it hypocritical not to do anything when things go bad? Why would I praise Goddess when things go well but let her off the hook when things go bad?

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Re: Good times and bad times rituals
« Reply #3 on: May 19, 2019, 04:36:57 pm »

I understand Jenett. However I do find myself sometimes getting angry at Goddess for just changing the direction of things. I give a lot of thanks when things go well but I find it hypocritical not to do anything when things go bad? Why would I praise Goddess when things go well but let her off the hook when things go bad?

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If you think the goddess is responsible for the bad turn of events or negligent -- and I'd make sure I really believed that first because lots of bad things can happen via purely mundane circumstances -- some traditions do have methods of punishment.

For example, in some folk traditions if St. Anthony won't help out and ignores offerings, his statue is turned upside down to make him uncomfortable.  The baby Jesus may also be taken from him.

You could withdraw offerings and devotions.  Ultimately if none of these actions work, you may dismantle her altar and sever the relationship, moving on to new relationships instead.

But I'd make sure you really believe she is responsible first, and if you conclude that, I'd first advise trying to work through the issue with her by other means, only resorting to punishment and finally severance of the relationship if absolutely necessary.

Take this all with a grain of salt, as I've never punished my Friends or Powers.  I have no personal experience with this matter.  I'm just reporting practices I've heard of in folk religion, and I'm not recommending it, just describing how I'd go about it if I were to do so.

Some of the other forum members will be more familiar with these practices in pagan religions, I'm sure.
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Re: Good times and bad times rituals
« Reply #4 on: May 19, 2019, 04:43:12 pm »

I understand Jenett. However I do find myself sometimes getting angry at Goddess for just changing the direction of things. I give a lot of thanks when things go well but I find it hypocritical not to do anything when things go bad? Why would I praise Goddess when things go well but let her off the hook when things go bad?

Again, why are you assuming that a particular Goddess has anything to do with why things are going badly?

(That might be the case, as noted in my previous response, but again, you'll usually know if it's because of something you did.)

Maybe stuff's going badly because you're in the wrong place at the wrong time.

Maybe stuff's hard because it's related to other things you're working on. (In my tradition, we talk about certain kinds of challenges that tend to come up again and again, until we change the way we respond to them.)

Maybe stuff's just hard. Not because of a Goddess, not because of you, just because it's a big world and a lot of moving parts, and sometimes things just  suck.

Personally, I don't blame M'Lady and Himself (or any other deities I work with) when stuff goes wrong. I may ask them for help ("Can you help me figure out the way through this hard thing?"). I may realise I messed up and do something to make that better (either in practical terms or at least symbolically, if I can't fix the thing itself for some reason.)

Again, this is because a) they may very well not be responsible for things sucking right now and b) even if they are, they may have other reasons for it, and I got stuck in a lousy place because of larger goals. (The same way, oh, the CEO of where I work makes large-scale decisions about future plans, and some of them work out well for me, and some don't work as well, but it's not, fundamentally, about me. It's about much larger decisions. I am not the centre of the universe and pretending I am is likely to end badly.)

I may be upset at a deity, but, y'know, being upset and ranting at a *person* doesn't usually make anything better, so doing it to a deity might not either. I'd rather take a step back, and figure out a more useful way to say "Hey, I'm upset" rather than just ranting. If I've built up a strong relationship with that being (again, human or deity) previously, there's a decent chance they'll hear me out, and we can move forward.

But then, I'm also not inherently inclined to lose my temper - when I've gotten upset at things in my life at the past, it's usually been a lot of ranting at the universe about how things are awful, they suck, how is this ever going to get better.

And then once I've ranted, I sit down and figure out - myself, though I certainly listen to inspiration from the gods, ancestors, and other powers I honour and work with - what it's going to take to do something different. And *then* I might ask my gods and powers and so on for help with specific pieces of those next steps. But yelling at them? Probably a waste of my time and energy. They aren't mine to scold.
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rous54

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Re: Good times and bad times rituals
« Reply #5 on: May 19, 2019, 04:49:09 pm »


If you think the goddess is responsible for the bad turn of events or negligent -- and I'd make sure I really believed that first because lots of bad things can happen via purely mundane circumstances -- some traditions do have methods of punishment.

For example, in some folk traditions if St. Anthony won't help out and ignores offerings, his statue is turned upside down to make him uncomfortable.  The baby Jesus may also be taken from him.


It's pretty cool that they do that to St Anthony. Although I admit this sounds more like a prank.

I have gone through the severing the relationship with Goddess discussion here on eCauldron and I am happy to say that that will never happen.

I don't want to punish Goddess but I want to display disapproval. Maybe it is all about having patience in the face of adversity but it feels wrong to praise when things are going well and do nothing when things go bad. It is just really frustrating when things don't go well especially when sometimes I am not doing well in the first place. Why the humiliation and surfing?

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Re: Good times and bad times rituals
« Reply #6 on: May 19, 2019, 05:06:38 pm »

It's pretty cool that they do that to St Anthony. Although I admit this sounds more like a prank.

I have gone through the severing the relationship with Goddess discussion here on eCauldron and I am happy to say that that will never happen.

I don't want to punish Goddess but I want to display disapproval. Maybe it is all about having patience in the face of adversity but it feels wrong to praise when things are going well and do nothing when things go bad. It is just really frustrating when things don't go well especially when sometimes I am not doing well in the first place. Why the humiliation and surfing?

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Given that many reasons have been given for why a goddess may not be responsible, which does also seem unlikely to me, why not merely vent frustration in another way?  Such as acting it out ritually and releasing it?  Or even by more conventionally  mundane means like writing.

A given power may even be willing to lend a friendly ear to listen supportively while you rant.  I once found this to be the case, and it was a very healing experience.
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rous54

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Re: Good times and bad times rituals
« Reply #7 on: May 19, 2019, 05:08:45 pm »


Again, why are you assuming that a particular Goddess has anything to do with why things are going badly?

Firstly I am panentheist meaning that I am part of Goddess and Goddess is part of me but also that Goddess slightly transcends us. I believe in Goddess and that's it, I don't believe there are other Goddesses or other forms of her. So when I am angry, I am angry at her. I am on the fence whether God is mortal or not.

Secondly, I just feel that she is responsible. This seems a major difference you and I have.

I live with a difficult father and sometimes he travels and when he's back like today I feel how horrible things are. I don't want to wait to think if Goddess has a larger picture for my life with an emotionally and mentally abusive father because things suck right now. Sometimes I am afraid to walk to the kitchen so I don't hear an off color comment.

Goddess gets my praise when things turn out well, maybe you don't agree with my perspective but that's how I see it, but then when a shitty thing happens I don't express it and that's hypocritical.

I am upset. I am looking for insights. I am probably not going to sacrifice a human but if that's why they had altars in ancient times, I understand.  Maybe cooking and sacrificing plants, thus the cauldron, is a way to soothe the soul. Cooking is really therapeutic for me. I just don't know when I am upset.

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rous54

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Re: Good times and bad times rituals
« Reply #8 on: May 19, 2019, 05:10:41 pm »


Given that many reasons have been given for why a goddess may not be responsible, which does also seem unlikely to me, why not merely vent frustration in another way?  Such as acting it out ritually and releasing it?  Or even by more conventionally  mundane means like writing.

A given power may even be willing to lend a friendly ear to listen supportively while you rant.  I once found this to be the case, and it was a very healing experience.

I do write sometimes but this doesn't seem enough. I am looking for a bigger ritual.


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Re: Good times and bad times rituals
« Reply #9 on: May 19, 2019, 06:03:55 pm »

I do write sometimes but this doesn't seem enough. I am looking for a bigger ritual.

I suggest that what you need right now is a stronger connection. That perhaps you are feeling abandoned or alone. Maybe create a sacred space and do whatever form of experiencing your Goddess you feel comfortable with. A invocation perhaps?

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Re: Good times and bad times rituals
« Reply #10 on: May 20, 2019, 12:17:59 am »

But I was wondering what would a person do when something bad happens?  It is so frustrating when things are going well then something bad happens and messes everything up.  It feels hypocritical to praise Goddess when something good happens but do nothing when something bad happens?  What would one do?  I am thinking of the ritual of sacrificing an animal (or a human in some old societies), but that is not an option.  I then thought that maybe that is why it is called an altar to sacrifice something.  How does one channel the negative energy when something bad happens and feels that Goddess is responsible for it?

Thanks.

Brightest blessings,

Adonia

During good times, I tend to explore and innovate a little more. Make an offering to someone new. Try different requests. Join my celtic ADF friends for
a ritual. When I’m uncertain I tend to go back to basics a bit more. Do the things that seem to have worked out in the past. Definitely call on someone you feel you have an existing relationship with. For me that’s Perun, who always seems to at least be listening.

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Re: Good times and bad times rituals
« Reply #11 on: May 20, 2019, 08:20:00 am »
Goddess gets my praise when things turn out well, maybe you don't agree with my perspective but that's how I see it, but then when a shitty thing happens I don't express it and that's hypocritical.

So firstly, I don't actually have deity in my practice so I'm just offering some suggestions based on speculation.  I also currently don't do any ritual, so you'd need to take my suggestion/s and extrapolate to incorporate into something which might work for you, personally (if desired).

What came to my mind was not 'punishment', but rather questioning.  As in, some sort of ritual or prayer-type-conversation in which you ask Goddess "Why is this happening?".

I'd be afraid of endeavoring to 'punish' because, how could I be certain that events are directly caused by the will of the deity and not, as others have said, just due to mundane causes.  Or even a stage within a multi-stage/larger/longer term sequence of events fated to happen/planned by Goddess or whatever (e.g. sometimes one might, say, lose a job or relationship and be angry about it, but perhaps it's happened to allow for a move into a different/better job/relationship at which time the anger is likely subsumed by different emotions).

Or if not a conversation, maybe a petition for Goddess to make it clear to you why something is happening?

Or, finally, a simple statement in which you express your feelings about an event.  Perhaps you might vent/rant, as someone else suggested, or perhaps you might simply state:  "I want you to know, this event is making me afraid/distressed..." or whatever.  You could incorporate other symbolic elements into this, such as writing down a summary of the 'bad thing' and (safely) burning or otherwise destroying the paper on which it's written, to help rid yourself of the distressing feelings from around the 'bad thing'/event.

Perhaps if you tried one or two of the suggestions from this thread, and see if they helped you to avoid the feeling of hypocrisy - if you find one that works, great; if the first thing you try doesn't seem to help, then try another.

[Edit: corrected a typo]
« Last Edit: May 20, 2019, 08:21:43 am by PerditaPickle »

rous54

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Re: Good times and bad times rituals
« Reply #12 on: May 20, 2019, 09:52:33 am »

Or if not a conversation, maybe a petition for Goddess to make it clear to you why something is happening?

[Edit: corrected a typo]

Thank you.  I think at this point the petition makes sense.  I am so sad about losing focus when before my dad's arrival I was motivated to do work.  I work from home so it is a sensitive situation.  It is so hectic that sometimes I am feeling ok then a curve ball is thrown at me and everything looks out of balance.

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Re: Good times and bad times rituals
« Reply #13 on: May 20, 2019, 08:36:50 pm »

Hi, rous54,

Just to let you know that I changed the subject prefix on this thread, so that it better matched the content of your question (and your theology as stated in a later post in the thread), and people with perspectives similar to your own would be more likely to read it rather than skipping over it.

You'd set it to 'Wicca-Trad', which indicates lineage-initiatory oathbound coven-practiced Wiccan traditions such as the trads of British Traditional Wicca (Cluster 1 and to some extent Cluster 2 in Jenett's article Different uses of the word Wicca). Although initiates of such traditions do speak of 'the Goddess', they also speak of 'the God'; this is because the names of the two primary deities of trad Wicca are oathbound. Trad Wiccans generally don't consider their deities to be the only Goddess and God, so a prefix that calls the attention of trad Wiccans specifically to your thread is not very useful, as they cannot answer your question from a perspective anything like your own.

Unfortunately we don't have a prefix to specifically indicate Goddess monotheism, or even Goddess worship generally. This is a shortcoming, and we'll be seeing if that can be fixed. Meanwhile, 'Neo-Paganism' is the prefix that comes closest to including your theological position.

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Re: Good times and bad times rituals
« Reply #14 on: May 20, 2019, 09:18:15 pm »
Unfortunately we don't have a prefix to specifically indicate Goddess monotheism, or even Goddess worship generally. This is a shortcoming, and we'll be seeing if that can be fixed. Meanwhile, 'Neo-Paganism' is the prefix that comes closest to including your theological position.

This has been fixed! I added the prefix 'Goddess Spirituality' and have applied it to this thread.

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Bob, Catja, Emma-Eldritch, Fausta, Jubes, Kelly, Phouka, Sperran, Star, Steve, Tana

Cauldron Assistants
[Non-Staff Positions]

Site Assistants
[Non-Staff Positions]
Webmaster:
Randall