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Author Topic: Futhark and Ogham?  (Read 4339 times)

Fagan_the_Pagan

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Futhark and Ogham?
« on: January 12, 2012, 05:02:45 am »
Does anyone know of any good resources out there that draw connections between the Oghams and Futhark Runes?

To be more specific, something that looks at meanings and significances of the individual runes and "fews" and sees how their meanings compare or correlate.  Basically I am looking to see what associations can be made to add another layer to the understanding of either set of characters, or if not applicable to an entire set of characters, than to individuals within the set.

It would be nice if the resources would be quasi-reputable, but I am not expecting to find anything like "proof that they are fundamentally the same thing," or that oghams are a "cipher" for the runes.  I have come across those ideas.  They sound interesting, but unlikely based on what I have seen do far.  Nothing I have found on the internet so far gives me anything at all helpful.
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Juniperberry

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Re: Futhark and Ogham?
« Reply #1 on: January 12, 2012, 09:01:33 am »
Quote from: Fagan_the_Pagan;38515
Does anyone know of any good resources out there that draw connections between the Oghams and Futhark Runes?

To be more specific, something that looks at meanings and significances of the individual runes and "fews" and sees how their meanings compare or correlate.  Basically I am looking to see what associations can be made to add another layer to the understanding of either set of characters, or if not applicable to an entire set of characters, than to individuals within the set.

It would be nice if the resources would be quasi-reputable, but I am not expecting to find anything like "proof that they are fundamentally the same thing," or that oghams are a "cipher" for the runes.  I have come across those ideas.  They sound interesting, but unlikely based on what I have seen do far.  Nothing I have found on the internet so far gives me anything at all helpful.

 
I think the general consensus is that there isn't any relationship between them-- Each are the writing system of two different languages.  

I did a quick search for internet reading, though, and found this paper comparing the early European languages. It's not the best, but there are other works cited (which will then cite other works, etc etc) and it'll get you started at least.
The pace of progress in artificial intelligence (I’m not referring to narrow AI) is incredibly fast. [...] The risk of something seriously dangerous happening is in the five year timeframe. 10 years at most.--Elon Musk

I am in the camp that is concerned about super intelligence," [Bill] Gates wrote. "First the machines will do a lot of jobs for us and not be super intelligent. That should be positive if we manage it well. A few decades after that though the intelligence is strong enough to be a concern. I agree with Elon Musk and some others on this and don\'t understand why some people are not concerned."

Fagan_the_Pagan

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Re: Futhark and Ogham?
« Reply #2 on: January 12, 2012, 03:02:27 pm »
Quote from: Juniperberry;38519
I think the general consensus is that there isn't any relationship between them-- Each are the writing system of two different languages.  

I did a quick search for internet reading, though, and found this paper comparing the early European languages. It's not the best, but there are other works cited (which will then cite other works, etc etc) and it'll get you started at least.
Thank you for that link, I will look into it.
 
I don't think they are linguistically related, I am much more interested in finding ways the mystical meanings of specific ogham fews can be related to mystical meanings of runes. For instance, the ogham Beith and the rune Berkana are both connected to the Birch tree, and are both associated with protection, mothers, and births.

Not all of them have associative ties that are as obvious, though, which is what I am hoping to get some help finding.
« Last Edit: January 12, 2012, 03:03:35 pm by Fagan_the_Pagan »
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Juniperberry

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Re: Futhark and Ogham?
« Reply #3 on: January 12, 2012, 04:35:46 pm »
Quote from: Fagan_the_Pagan;38538
Thank you for that link, I will look into it.
 
I don't think they are linguistically related, I am much more interested in finding ways the mystical meanings of specific ogham fews can be related to mystical meanings of runes. For instance, the ogham Beith and the rune Berkana are both connected to the Birch tree, and are both associated with protection, mothers, and births.

Not all of them have associative ties that are as obvious, though, which is what I am hoping to get some help finding.


Hmm.  I'm not really sure about the quality of information you'll find on that. Its generally held that there wasn't any inherent spiritual significance to the runes themselves (until newage mysticism came along*). B= Berkana is about as mystical as our elementary A= Apple. Its what are written with the runes that are important. Letters are just letters until they create something like the US Constitution, and then its the whole and not the individual ABC's that carry power.

I've never looked into runes that deeply, though, so I could just be a cynical downer you need to ignore. ;)


* Fairly certain the idea of spiritual runes has been traced back as an "invention" of Gardner and his group.
The pace of progress in artificial intelligence (I’m not referring to narrow AI) is incredibly fast. [...] The risk of something seriously dangerous happening is in the five year timeframe. 10 years at most.--Elon Musk

I am in the camp that is concerned about super intelligence," [Bill] Gates wrote. "First the machines will do a lot of jobs for us and not be super intelligent. That should be positive if we manage it well. A few decades after that though the intelligence is strong enough to be a concern. I agree with Elon Musk and some others on this and don\'t understand why some people are not concerned."

Aster Breo

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Re: Futhark and Ogham?
« Reply #4 on: January 12, 2012, 08:03:14 pm »
Quote from: Juniperberry;38547
Its generally held that there wasn't any inherent spiritual significance to the runes themselves (until newage mysticism came along*).

 
Similarly, there is very little extant lore about the use of oghams as a divination system.  There are references to using "staves", and that connection has been drawn by some researchers.  But there is nothing to tell us that the Celts used ogham for divination.  IIRC, there's actually no evidence of the use of ogham prior to the Christianization of Ireland.

That said, the book The Poet's Ogam:  A Living Magical Tradition might have some of the kind of info you're looking for.  My copy is out on loan to a friend right now, though, so I can't say for certain.

It'll be interesting to see what you find.  I hope you'll share it.

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Fagan_the_Pagan

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Re: Futhark and Ogham?
« Reply #5 on: January 12, 2012, 09:26:50 pm »
Quote from: Aster Breo;38570
Similarly, there is very little extant lore about the use of oghams as a divination system.  There are references to using "staves", and that connection has been drawn by some researchers.  But there is nothing to tell us that the Celts used ogham for divination.  IIRC, there's actually no evidence of the use of ogham prior to the Christianization of Ireland.

It is not necessarily divination in particular that I am talking about, though that is how both of these alphabets are most commonly used now.  

I have come across references to Oghams being used to find someone who was kidnapped (or prevent someone from being kidnapped), and for one or two magical uses such as Cuchulainn using them to obstruct the passage of Medb's armies in the Tain Bo Caulinge.

I will try to get my hands on a copy of "The Poet's Ogam." It sounds like a very interesting read.
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Re: Futhark and Ogham?
« Reply #6 on: January 12, 2012, 11:22:54 pm »
Quote from: Juniperberry;38547
Hmm.  I'm not really sure about the quality of information you'll find on that. Its generally held that there wasn't any inherent spiritual significance to the runes themselves (until newage mysticism came along*).

 
Agreed. I'm not very certain of any scholarly works that do what you asking about: comparing the meanings of the ogam letters and runes.

My guess is if you want a comparison, you're going to have to do it yourself. ::shrug::
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Re: Futhark and Ogham?
« Reply #7 on: January 12, 2012, 11:33:53 pm »
Quote from: Juniperberry;38547

* Fairly certain the idea of spiritual runes has been traced back as an "invention" of Gardner and his group.

 
I've never heard anything about Gardner and his associates making use of runes (in the Futhark sense) at all.  There's a chant called "The Witches' Rune", but that's an entirely different sense of the word.  I wonder if that's what you're thinking of.

Otherwise - the idea of runes being a mystical "alphabet" is a bit older than that; I seem to recall 19th century stuff in that line, though I'd have to look it up to be sure.

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Juniperberry

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Re: Futhark and Ogham?
« Reply #8 on: January 13, 2012, 10:58:43 am »
Quote from: SunflowerP;38600
I've never heard anything about Gardner and his associates making use of runes (in the Futhark sense) at all.  There's a chant called "The Witches' Rune", but that's an entirely different sense of the word.  I wonder if that's what you're thinking of.

Otherwise - the idea of runes being a mystical "alphabet" is a bit older than that; I seem to recall 19th century stuff in that line, though I'd have to look it up to be sure.

Sunflower


No, that's not what I was thinking of. Runes do have mystical and philisophical significance, within the written word, within defining something, within transcending time by existing long after the author. What I'm referring to is the idea that the rune, a rune, is magic itself. That Berkana stands for mothers, protection, and birth. That they're sigils for the craft.  And I distinctly remembering reading that it was the Gardnerian folk who really first introduced that idea to people through some writings,  and which was picked up and carried on more fully by the likes of Blum. And, honestly, I just took it at face value since Gardner did use influences from a variety of cultures and schools. Just look at what been done with Jul, where its now more widely known as a Wiccan holiday that has an entirely different significance than it originally held.

Anyway, full disclosure, a quick search isn't bringing anything up to back that up so take it for what its worth. If I come across something I'll be sure to link it here.
The pace of progress in artificial intelligence (I’m not referring to narrow AI) is incredibly fast. [...] The risk of something seriously dangerous happening is in the five year timeframe. 10 years at most.--Elon Musk

I am in the camp that is concerned about super intelligence," [Bill] Gates wrote. "First the machines will do a lot of jobs for us and not be super intelligent. That should be positive if we manage it well. A few decades after that though the intelligence is strong enough to be a concern. I agree with Elon Musk and some others on this and don\'t understand why some people are not concerned."

Fagan_the_Pagan

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Re: Futhark and Ogham?
« Reply #9 on: January 13, 2012, 12:51:00 pm »
Quote from: Juniperberry;38619
No, that's not what I was thinking of. Runes do have mystical and philisophical significance, within the written word, within defining something, within transcending time by existing long after the author. What I'm referring to is the idea that the rune, a rune, is magic itself.

 
Doesn't the Havamal include bits where Odin is explaining the magic of the runes?  I myself would have to find it and read through it to point to more specifics, but I recall these as existing.
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Juniperberry

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Re: Futhark and Ogham?
« Reply #10 on: January 13, 2012, 02:54:24 pm »
Quote from: Fagan_the_Pagan;38637
Doesn't the Havamal include bits where Odin is explaining the magic of the runes?  I myself would have to find it and read through it to point to more specifics, but I recall these as existing.

 
The Havamal seems to suggest there is more power in the singing of spells than in the runes:

Nine mighty songs I learned from the great
son of Bale-thorn, Bestla's sire;
I drank a measure of the wondrous Mead,
with the Soulstirrer's drops I was showered.
140.
Ere long I bare fruit, and throve full well,
I grew and waxed in wisdom;
word following word, I found me words,
deed following deed, I wrought deeds.
141.
Hidden Runes shalt thou seek and interpreted signs,
many symbols of might and power,
by the great Singer painted, by the high Powers fashioned,
graved by the Utterer of gods.

145.
Those songs I know, which nor sons of men
nor queen in a king's court knows;
the first is Help which will bring thee help
in all woes and in sorrow and strife.
146.
A second I know, which the son of men
must sing, who would heal the sick.

Etc and so on…
The pace of progress in artificial intelligence (I’m not referring to narrow AI) is incredibly fast. [...] The risk of something seriously dangerous happening is in the five year timeframe. 10 years at most.--Elon Musk

I am in the camp that is concerned about super intelligence," [Bill] Gates wrote. "First the machines will do a lot of jobs for us and not be super intelligent. That should be positive if we manage it well. A few decades after that though the intelligence is strong enough to be a concern. I agree with Elon Musk and some others on this and don\'t understand why some people are not concerned."

Fireof9

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Re: Futhark and Ogham?
« Reply #11 on: January 13, 2012, 04:27:21 pm »
Quote from: Juniperberry;38647
The Havamal seems to suggest there is more power in the singing of spells than in the runes:

Nine mighty songs I learned from the great
son of Bale-thorn, Bestla's sire;
I drank a measure of the wondrous Mead,
with the Soulstirrer's drops I was showered.
140.
Ere long I bare fruit, and throve full well,
I grew and waxed in wisdom;
word following word, I found me words,
deed following deed, I wrought deeds.
141.
Hidden Runes shalt thou seek and interpreted signs,
many symbols of might and power,
by the great Singer painted, by the high Powers fashioned,
graved by the Utterer of gods.

145.
Those songs I know, which nor sons of men
nor queen in a king's court knows;
the first is Help which will bring thee help
in all woes and in sorrow and strife.
146.
A second I know, which the son of men
must sing, who would heal the sick.

Etc and so on…

 
You make a good point. But these song are rune songs. So there is an inference of them being mystical if used that way.
Really?  So, hey, want to go fishing?  I\'ve got a telescope, and it\'s going to be a dark night, so we should see the fish really well.
...what, I\'m not talking about fishing?  That\'s stargazing?  It\'s all doing-stuff, so it\'s the same thing, right?
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Juniperberry

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Re: Futhark and Ogham?
« Reply #12 on: January 13, 2012, 05:16:09 pm »
Quote from: Fireof9;38650
You make a good point. But these song are rune songs. So there is an inference of them being mystical if used that way.

 

What other type of songs would they be? It was a runic-based language before the Latin alphabet took over. Runes weren't a separate special alphabet outside of the normal Germanic one. Odin hung himself and acquired language,communication. He could now exchange words that would halt arrows from his enemies. Man could now place things within context and relationship to one another. There were words of love he would speak only to those closest to him. Imagine not being able to tell your child you loved them and then imagine discovering language and expressing yourself. With words we exert our will. With language we have power over our reality. With the written word we can send our thoughts to those far away. It was the ancient equivalent of the Internet. Written words could keep communication private. Language is fairly amazing and quite a few cultures have a mythology of it being given to them from a divine source.

Is there a resistance towards the idea of power of language and all it defines and enlightens within us on a philosophical and spiritual basis over a preference that there's some hidden mystical secret within the literal letters? Isn't it kinda cool to know everytime you speak and communicate you're in the middle of performing something incredibly deep and spiritual? That you're affecting the universe, sharing of yourself and essentially in the midst of something miraculous? Its just noise. Vibrations. Speech is shapeless and invisible but its the one thing we have to connect, and the letters are just the symbols of that which comes from within the hearts of us.  

Blah blah blah. Got all passionate on ya there. ;)
The pace of progress in artificial intelligence (I’m not referring to narrow AI) is incredibly fast. [...] The risk of something seriously dangerous happening is in the five year timeframe. 10 years at most.--Elon Musk

I am in the camp that is concerned about super intelligence," [Bill] Gates wrote. "First the machines will do a lot of jobs for us and not be super intelligent. That should be positive if we manage it well. A few decades after that though the intelligence is strong enough to be a concern. I agree with Elon Musk and some others on this and don\'t understand why some people are not concerned."

Fireof9

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Re: Futhark and Ogham?
« Reply #13 on: January 13, 2012, 06:54:26 pm »
Quote from: Juniperberry;38652
What other type of songs would they be? It was a runic-based language before the Latin alphabet took over. Runes weren't a separate special alphabet outside of the normal Germanic one. Odin hung himself and acquired language,communication. He could now exchange words that would halt arrows from his enemies. Man could now place things within context and relationship to one another. There were words of love he would speak only to those closest to him. Imagine not being able to tell your child you loved them and then imagine discovering language and expressing yourself. With words we exert our will. With language we have power over our reality. With the written word we can send our thoughts to those far away. It was the ancient equivalent of the Internet. Written words could keep communication private. Language is fairly amazing and quite a few cultures have a mythology of it being given to them from a divine source.

Is there a resistance towards the idea of power of language and all it defines and enlightens within us on a philosophical and spiritual basis over a preference that there's some hidden mystical secret within the literal letters? Isn't it kinda cool to know everytime you speak and communicate you're in the middle of performing something incredibly deep and spiritual? That you're affecting the universe, sharing of yourself and essentially in the midst of something miraculous? Its just noise. Vibrations. Speech is shapeless and invisible but its the one thing we have to connect, and the letters are just the symbols of that which comes from within the hearts of us.  

Blah blah blah. Got all passionate on ya there. ;)

 
Absolutely - all that. I'm just saying that when reading the Havamal, there are hints that the runes can be used for more.

That said.

I think people look or things like the runes and the Ogham to be something even more special because they are old. I totally agree with what you said about anytime we use language at all we are doing something greater than we think. Can people use the runes for mystical purposes? Sure they can. Could they do it with our current alphabet and in english? Yes as well.

What we don't have with our current alphabet is the letters having corresponding meanings to other things. I'm not sure how accurate that is either with runes and ogham.
Really?  So, hey, want to go fishing?  I\'ve got a telescope, and it\'s going to be a dark night, so we should see the fish really well.
...what, I\'m not talking about fishing?  That\'s stargazing?  It\'s all doing-stuff, so it\'s the same thing, right?
-HeartShadow
 
Yesterday is history, Tomorrow is a mystery,Today is a gift,thats why the call it the present - Master Oogway

Finding the Owl -my blog
The Gwyddonic Order

Fireof9

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Re: Futhark and Ogham?
« Reply #14 on: January 13, 2012, 06:55:50 pm »
Quote from: Juniperberry;38652
Blah blah blah. Got all passionate on ya there. ;)

 
That is infinitly better than - yes Fire you are right of no Fire you are wrong......

Passion is good
Really?  So, hey, want to go fishing?  I\'ve got a telescope, and it\'s going to be a dark night, so we should see the fish really well.
...what, I\'m not talking about fishing?  That\'s stargazing?  It\'s all doing-stuff, so it\'s the same thing, right?
-HeartShadow
 
Yesterday is history, Tomorrow is a mystery,Today is a gift,thats why the call it the present - Master Oogway

Finding the Owl -my blog
The Gwyddonic Order

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